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RE: Iraq: For Solutions only - 10/8/2006 7:50:37 PM

thompsonx

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quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent

quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sinergy

quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx

I think I mentioned that Hitler, like Napoleon, went to Russia in the winter without his longjohns.
I think I mentioned also that the Russians stretched out Hitlers supply line to over 500 miles(which cost land and blood). Hitler attacked Russia in late june of 41 and Stalin realized that he needed to keep the Germans from getting to Moscow before winter so he made the decission to sacrifice thousands of lives to save millions (Stalin was never known for his sensitive heart)

I thought June was mid summer in the northern hemisphere. Learn something new every day.

The Russians pulled back and used the same scorched earth policy (burning everything behind them) that helped defeat Napoleon, and let winter do the rest.

The other thing the Russians did was develop a tank (T-34) which was the most easily produced and effective tank (for it's time) ever produced by anybody, anywhere.

I find your statement about Hitler not being incompetent was rather odd. He had some of the best generals in the world at the time, but he refused to listen to their
counsel and invaded Russia anyway.

Weird, we have a President that is not listening to his generals and sending his military in to fight idiotic and suicidal conflicts.

This is one definition of incompetence: Hiring brains and skill and then refusing to listen to the people that actually know what they are saying.

Just me, could be wrong, but there you go.

Sinergy

In my post that you quoted it says pretty clearly that Hitler started his attack on Russia in late june...by the first of october he was still about 150 miles from Moscow....the battle for Moscow lasts until 5 december when Guderian in his journal admits defeat with a loss of nearly a quarter of a million men, several thousand aircraft and almost 2000 tanks.
Hitler planned many major operations that were successful both in the east and the west, ultimately he lost because he went to an asskicking contest barefoot....he suffered from believing his own propaganda about the inferiority of the Russians. Hitler also planned several operations that were catastrophic failures...Stalingrad being a prime example Moscow being another

thompson

_________________________________________________________

If I am asleep and you want to wake me.
If I am awake and don't want to make me.

Hitler and the Nazis were all flawed characters and this doomed the Nazi Government to failure. They held bizarre grand aims but no real plan to achieve these aims. They were a group of opportunists who simply made things up as they went along depending on their daily mood and limited education. Hitler personally cynically manipulated the work of Darwin and Neitzsche to fit his own warped view of the world. Of the top men, only Goebbels is deemed have been well educated.

Ultimately, they didn’t have the first clue what they were doing apart from build a few roads/tanks/planes/grand buildings, grab some land in Eastern Europe and dampen objection to this form of Government by operating a regime of terror. Even without the war, Nazi German society and the economy would have collapsed by 1950.

The fact Hitler was an opportunist is the reason why no one on this planet can say where Hitler would have stopped with his megalomania. Consequently, Hitler’s war aims can never be neatly summed up.

Northern Gent:
I could not agree with you more....while Hitler from time to time showed flashes of tactical brilliance he was stratigically "without a clue"
thompson

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RE: Iraq: For Solutions only - 10/8/2006 7:55:49 PM

Sinergy

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quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx

In my post that you quoted it says pretty clearly that Hitler started his attack on Russia in late june...

Hello thompsonx,

I am too tired from work to go back and quote it. But your post chastized Hitler for attacking Russia in winter without his long johns.

Now you are stating he attacked in June. Yes. That is true.

The Russian strategy was to pull back and draw out his supply lines, and wait for winter to decimate his armies.

They did the same thing to Napoleon.

My point was that Hitler's generals told him not to attack Russia, and he ignored them and insisted. Which added lots of nails to the lid of his coffin.

Sinergy

_____________________________

"There is a fine line between clever and stupid"
David St. Hubbins "This Is Spinal Tap"

"Every so often you let a word or phrase out and you want to catch it and bring it back. You cant do that, it is gone, gone forever." J. Danforth Quayle

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Post #: 262

RE: Iraq: For Solutions only - 10/8/2006 8:05:08 PM

WyrdRich

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I'll accept your date reference for the tactical plan, Thom, but the strategic need for an attack on Pearl Harbor was well established considerably beforehand. I have it in my mind that devising a tactical assault was on the final exam for the Japanese Naval Acadamy from 1933 on, but my readings on the subject were some years ago. Couldn't cite an author if my life depended on it. The area is on northern Hokkaido, built around two lakes on a reduced scale.

Any issues you have with how I express my thoughts are yours to deal with.

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Post #: 263

RE: Iraq: For Solutions only - 10/8/2006 8:31:46 PM

thompsonx

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Sinergy

quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx

In my post that you quoted it says pretty clearly that Hitler started his attack on Russia in late june...

Hello thompsonx,

I am too tired from work to go back and quote it. But your post chastized Hitler for attacking Russia in winter without his long johns.

Now you are stating he attacked in June. Yes. That is true.

The Russian strategy was to pull back and draw out his supply lines, and wait for winter to decimate his armies.

They did the same thing to Napoleon.

My point was that Hitler's generals told him not to attack Russia, and he ignored them and insisted. Which added lots of nails to the lid of his coffin.

Sinergy

Sinergy:
You seem to be saying that when the Germans got to Moscow nearly a quarter million of them just froze to death.

It was not the Russian winter that decimated the German army at Moscow it was General Zhukov and the Russian 16th,19th,20th,43rd and 54th, armies that crushed them.
Hitler started in june but moscow is not next door to warsaw. It took Hitler's troops more than three months to get to within 150 miles of Moscow where the Russians spent the next month cleaning their collective clocks.
The germans were not prepared for either the winter cold or the ferocity of the Russians.
My post chastises Hitler for going to an ass kicking contest in the winter and showing up barefoot and without his longjohns.

thompson

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Post #: 264

RE: Iraq: For Solutions only - 10/8/2006 8:40:04 PM

Sinergy

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quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sinergy

quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx

In my post that you quoted it says pretty clearly that Hitler started his attack on Russia in late june...

Hello thompsonx,

I am too tired from work to go back and quote it. But your post chastized Hitler for attacking Russia in winter without his long johns.

Now you are stating he attacked in June. Yes. That is true.

The Russian strategy was to pull back and draw out his supply lines, and wait for winter to decimate his armies.

They did the same thing to Napoleon.

My point was that Hitler's generals told him not to attack Russia, and he ignored them and insisted. Which added lots of nails to the lid of his coffin.

Sinergy

Sinergy:
You seem to be saying that when the Germans got to Moscow nearly a quarter million of them just froze to death.

It was not the Russian winter that decimated the German army at Moscow it was General Zhukov and the Russian 16th,19th,20th,43rd and 54th, armies that crushed them.
Hitler started in june but moscow is not next door to warsaw. It took Hitler's troops more than three months to get to within 150 miles of Moscow where the Russians spent the next month cleaning their collective clocks.
The germans were not prepared for either the winter cold or the ferocity of the Russians.
My post chastises Hitler for going to an ass kicking contest in the winter and showing up barefoot and without his longjohns.

thompson

Weird.

I dont actually remember citing references to Warsaw (in Poland) or Moscow (in Russia) in any post I have made, but thank you for the clarification of the things you insist that I have posted.

My point was that he didnt invade Russia in the winter, as you stated he did. Winter simply happened because he didnt think about the sheer size of Russia, how long it would actually take to invade Russia, or their tactic on how to deal with people invading them.

Just me, apparently I am wrong, but there you go.

Sinergy

_____________________________

"There is a fine line between clever and stupid"
David St. Hubbins "This Is Spinal Tap"

"Every so often you let a word or phrase out and you want to catch it and bring it back. You cant do that, it is gone, gone forever." J. Danforth Quayle

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RE: Iraq: For Solutions only - 10/8/2006 8:48:15 PM

dombill32

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I cringe when in the news that describe whats going on in Iraq as one front on the larger war on terror. The entire idea of a war on terror bothers me. Calling this a war on terror means we are fighting a war against a strategy used by weaker powers against stronger ones. We should be fighting the war on Al-Quada, and even though fighting a war against an organzition that is not a nation state would make it difficult to gain complete victory, it has a better chance then one against a strategy. Al-Quada is what brought the twin towers down, terrorism is the strategy they used.

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RE: Iraq: For Solutions only - 10/8/2006 8:54:17 PM

thompsonx

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quote:

ORIGINAL: WyrdRich

I'll accept your date reference for the tactical plan, Thom, but the strategic need for an attack on Pearl Harbor was well established considerably beforehand. I have it in my mind that devising a tactical assault was on the final exam for the Japanese Naval Acadamy from 1933 on, but my readings on the subject were some years ago. Couldn't cite an author if my life depended on it. The area is on northern Hokkaido, built around two lakes on a reduced scale.

Any issues you have with how I express my thoughts are yours to deal with.

WyrdRich:

This appears to be more opinion and rude rhetoric. Please disabuse me of this perception with facts.
My name is thompson...don't you feel that common courtesy demands you use my name?
Nous avons eleve les cochones avec moi?

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RE: Iraq: For Solutions only - 10/8/2006 9:25:15 PM

Sinergy

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quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx

This appears to be more opinion and rude rhetoric. Please disabuse me of this perception with facts.

This coming from the person who refuses to cite my references to Warsaw in any post I have made on the board.

Sure, "thompson," please disabuse me of YOUR perception with facts.

Sinergy

_____________________________

"There is a fine line between clever and stupid"
David St. Hubbins "This Is Spinal Tap"

"Every so often you let a word or phrase out and you want to catch it and bring it back. You cant do that, it is gone, gone forever." J. Danforth Quayle

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RE: Iraq: For Solutions only - 10/8/2006 10:08:27 PM

nefertari

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quote:

ORIGINAL: dombill32

I cringe when in the news that describe whats going on in Iraq as one front on the larger war on terror. The entire idea of a war on terror bothers me. Calling this a war on terror means we are fighting a war against a strategy used by weaker powers against stronger ones. We should be fighting the war on Al-Quada, and even though fighting a war against an organzition that is not a nation state would make it difficult to gain complete victory, it has a better chance then one against a strategy. Al-Quada is what brought the twin towers down, terrorism is the strategy they used.

*Applauds* Very well said.

This so-called war on terror has only succeeded in creating more terrorists.

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RE: Iraq: For Solutions only - 10/9/2006 6:51:48 AM

bills944

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quote:

ORIGINAL: dombill32

I cringe when in the news that describe whats going on in Iraq as one front on the larger war on terror. The entire idea of a war on terror bothers me. Calling this a war on terror means we are fighting a war against a strategy used by weaker powers against stronger ones. We should be fighting the war on Al-Quada, and even though fighting a war against an organzition that is not a nation state would make it difficult to gain complete victory, it has a better chance then one against a strategy. Al-Quada is what brought the twin towers down, terrorism is the strategy they used.

You might be interested in reading this

The Secret Letter From Iraq Friday, Oct. 06, 2006
http://www.time.com/time/world/printout/0,8816,1543658,00.html

A Marine's letter home, with its frank description of life in "Dante's inferno," has been circulating through generals' in-boxes. We publish it here with the author's approval

Written last month, this straightforward account of life in Iraq by a Marine officer was initially sent just to a small group of family and friends. His honest but wry narration and unusually frank dissection of the mission contrasts sharply with the story presented by both sides of the Iraq war debate, the Pentagon spin masters and fierce critics. Perhaps inevitably, the 'Letter from Iraq' moved quickly beyond the small group of acquantainaces and hit the inboxes of retired generals, officers in the Pentagon, and staffers on Capitol Hill. TIME's Sally B. Donnelly first received a copy three weeks ago but only this week was able to track down the author and verify the document's authenticity. The author wishes to remain anonymous but has allowed us to publish it here — with a few judicious omissions.

All: I haven't written very much from Iraq. There's really not much to write about. More exactly, there's not much I can write about because practically everything I do, read or hear is classified military information or is depressing to the point that I'd rather just forget about it, never mind write about it. The gaps in between all of that are filled with the pure tedium of daily life in an armed camp. So it's a bit of a struggle to think of anything to put into a letter that's worth reading. Worse, this place just consumes you. I work 18-20-hour days, every day. The quest to draw a clear picture of what the insurgents are up to never ends. Problems and frictions crop up faster than solutions. Every challenge demands a response. It's like this every day. Before I know it, I can't see straight, because it's 0400 and I've been at work for 20 hours straight, somehow missing dinner again in the process. And once again I haven't written to anyone. It starts all over again four hours later. It's not really like Ground Hog Day, it's more like a level from Dante's Inferno.

Rather than...

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RE: Iraq: For Solutions only - 10/9/2006 6:58:52 AM

thompsonx

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Sinergy

quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx

This appears to be more opinion and rude rhetoric. Please disabuse me of this perception with facts.

This coming from the person who refuses to cite my references to Warsaw in any post I have made on the board.

Sure, "thompson," please disabuse me of YOUR perception with facts.

Sinergy

Sinergy:
I am not sure I understand your last post. I do not see that we really have any points of disagreement. We both agree that Hitler invaded Russia in June of 1941. I think we both agree that the attack was launched from Poland. I cannot believe you would disagree that the attack on Moscow started in October. I doubt that you would disagree with Field Marshall Guderian's own notes that he had lost the battle for Moscow on November 5 1941.
Where do we disagree?

thompson

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RE: Iraq: For Solutions only - 10/9/2006 7:40:52 AM

thompsonx

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quote:

ORIGINAL: WyrdRich

I'll accept your date reference for the tactical plan, Thom, but the strategic need for an attack on Pearl Harbor was well established considerably beforehand. I have it in my mind that devising a tactical assault was on the final exam for the Japanese Naval Acadamy from 1933 on, but my readings on the subject were some years ago. Couldn't cite an author if my life depended on it. The area is on northern Hokkaido, built around two lakes on a reduced scale.

Any issues you have with how I express my thoughts are yours to deal with.

WyrdRich:
Two lakes on an island the size of South Carolina does not give one a very precise geographic picture. I got the impression from your post that the Japanese had been practicing on this mock up for ten years...was that your intention?
The book I cited for you points out that the "final exam question" you speak of focused on the use of carriers and submarines to decimate the U.S. fleet on its way to Japan with the killing blow being delivered in the home waters of Japan. Yamamoto pointed out that all of the gamming showed Japan to be unsuccessful with this tactic. So early in 1940 he devised the assault on Pearl Harbor.
I am sure you are aware that almost all countries have contingency plans for attacking most everyone. For example the U.S. just finished war games in which we were attacking Israel. The Isralie team lead by a retired marine corps general defeated the U.S. assault force without suffering a single casuality.

thompson

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RE: Iraq: For Solutions only - 10/9/2006 10:04:18 AM

bills944

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quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

I never marched until we had been in Iraq for 6 months....but I knew we were going to go before we did, and I tried to exert pressure on politicians in my state, and nationwide for that matter

Have you heard of PNAC?

My parents were wiretapped and mail was opened up when they went to antiwar meetings and wore pins against the war.. and they became active in the movement because my uncle was there... I know about cointel ops ..

On edit, that was during Vietnam

Columns: We Americans really ought to be ashamed

So now, under the newly enacted military commissions, as long as a military judge rules the evidence reliable and it was obtained before 2006, it can be admitted even if the evidence was drawn out of someone by freezing him or almost drowning him or keeping him awake and on his feet for days. Hey, it's the new American way, which sounds an awful lot like the old European way.

http://www.sptimes.com/2006/10/08/Columns/We_Americans_really_o.shtml

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RE: Iraq: For Solutions only - 10/9/2006 10:50:55 AM

caitlyn

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For discussion.

Learn the lessons of thy Byzantine Empire when dealing with this region ... play off against each other, powers that are more than willing to oblige.

How about making individual deals with certain oil-rich nations ... deals that would be far too profitable for them to pass on. We wouldn't be doing anything 'wrong' persay ... just making a deal with our money, that makes sense for us.

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RE: Iraq: For Solutions only - 10/9/2006 10:51:05 AM

bills944

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Did Carville Tip Bush Off to Kerry

So what happened?

James Carville gets on the phone with his wife, Mary Matalin, who is at the White House with Bush.
"Carville told her he had some inside news. The Kerry campaign was going to challenge the provisional ballots in Ohio -- perhaps up to 250,000 of them. 'I don't agree with it, Carville said. I'm just telling you that's what they're talking about.'
"Matalin went to Cheney to report...You better tell the President Cheney told her."

http://www.tpmcafe.com/blog/coffeehouse/2006/oct/07/did_carville_tip_bush_off_to_kerry_strategy_woodward

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RE: Iraq: For Solutions only - 10/9/2006 8:01:59 PM

WyrdRich

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quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx

WyrdRich:

This appears to be more opinion and rude rhetoric. Please disabuse me of this perception with facts.
My name is thompson...don't you feel that common courtesy demands you use my name?
Nous avons eleve les cochones avec moi?

       Thom;

     This appears to be more condescension and arrogance. Please disabuse yourself of such a tone.

      I habitually shorten screen names that lend themselves to it for my convenience. You come off better than some. Does common courtesy demand I treat you differently than everyone else?

     Icklay emay erewhay Iay itshay

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RE: Iraq: For Solutions only - 10/9/2006 8:07:05 PM

Lordandmaster

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Now now boys. Get a room.

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RE: Iraq: For Solutions only - 10/9/2006 8:19:10 PM

caitlyn

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quote:

ORIGINAL: WyrdRich
I habitually shorten screen names that lend themselves to it for my convenience. You come off better than some.

Yeah ... he is forever calling me clyt ... which I don't really understand.

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RE: Iraq: For Solutions only - 10/9/2006 8:26:10 PM

WyrdRich

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quote:

ORIGINAL: caitlyn

Yeah ... he is forever calling me clyt ... which I don't really understand.

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RE: Iraq: For Solutions only - 10/9/2006 8:39:31 PM

thompsonx

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quote:

ORIGINAL: WyrdRich

quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx

WyrdRich:

This appears to be more opinion and rude rhetoric. Please disabuse me of this perception with facts.
My name is thompson...don't you feel that common courtesy demands you use my name?
Nous avons eleve les cochones avec moi?

     Thom;

   This appears to be more condescension and arrogance. Please disabuse yourself of such a tone.

    I habitually shorten screen names that lend themselves to it for my convenience. You come off better than some. Does common courtesy demand I treat you differently than everyone else?

   Icklay emay erewhay Iay itshay

WyrdRich:
When common courtesy is not how could I expect less.
Aside from your adolescent rudness you managed to sidestep the facts once again.
In your previous post did you mean that the Japanese had been paraciting bombing the mock up of Pearl Harbor for ten years?
Do you plan on documenting your statement that Japan had been planning on bombing Pearl Harbor for ten years. Opinion without substantiation is just ...opinion
One can put a suit on a pig and put him in a limo but he still speaks pig latin