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RE: Amish School Shooting - 10/2/2006 4:48:35 PM   
LadyJulieAnn


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quote:

ORIGINAL: popeye1250

Rule, I don't know but SOMEONE in schools should be armed.
We obviously don't have enough Cops to be in schools everyday so what do you do?


Perhaps we need to look deeper into where the problems are beginning instead of covering them up with superficial solutions that just feed into the violence.

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RE: Amish School Shooting - 10/2/2006 4:49:03 PM   
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quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail

The PC with kids and the divorce rate is the root cause of alot of this ruckus.

Ron  


A lot of truth to that, Ron. And again, sometimes it's just that someone is crazy, and they go off. Not much rhyme or reason, and no real way to stop it.

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RE: Amish School Shooting - 10/2/2006 4:54:45 PM   
KatyLied


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quote:

why an Amish school and why were the male children released?


They said he was acting out revenge on something that happened to him 20 years ago.  He left notes for his wife and kids. 


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RE: Amish School Shooting - 10/2/2006 5:01:10 PM   
lisaSea


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I have to wonder, have we become so desensatized through media?   This almost exact scenerio has been played out on several television shows recently, either troubled teens or young adults taking out revenge with a gun on either schools or shopping malls.   

Are we feeding ideas into the minds of those already on the edge?   I'm not saying things didn't happen 30 or 40 years ago, because they did, just not to this degree and familiarity.  When television had only three channels and there were no PC's or violent, bloody games for kids to cut their teeth on, or movies that glorified the gangster mentality, things were vastly different.  

This shooter was 32, he was troubled and disturbed at being shunned in grade school?  Do you suppose all the media attention to the previous shootings, plus the weekly shows that have all done their rendition of such an event, may have given this man a spark of an idea?   It just seems too close, why wait until now to plan his revenge?  

I still think the best thing that can happen for society is to find themselves without oil and electricity. 

lisa{Sea's}

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RE: Amish School Shooting - 10/2/2006 5:12:23 PM   
Rule


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There was also that school in Beslan in which hundreds of little ones and the teachers were killed by cowardly attackers. If the teachers had been armed, and if responsible and capable little ones had been armed with a one shot weapon, not as many people would have died there.

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RE: Amish School Shooting - 10/2/2006 5:31:40 PM   
KatyLied


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Lisa I also find all of it disturbing along with the tendency toward these things occuring in clusters.  From the Yahoo article:  The shootings were disturbingly similar to an attack last week at Platte Canyon High School in Bailey, Colo., where a man singled out several girls as hostages in a school classroom and then killed one of them and himself.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20061002/ap_on_re_us/amish_school_shooting



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RE: Amish School Shooting - 10/2/2006 5:44:48 PM   
pahunkboy


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the amish not far from here were into a drug ring a few years back. a biker gang recruited them as they figured they would not look guilty.  it was heavy duty drugs too.

eventaully they were raided and charged...

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RE: Amish School Shooting - 10/2/2006 5:50:38 PM   
KatyLied


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Some of them freak out when they have their Rumspringer. 
We have some nearby and so far the biggest problem as been their inability to read (or perhaps understand) a deed.  

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RE: Amish School Shooting - 10/2/2006 6:08:24 PM   
pahunkboy


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amish are shrewd. they sell their farms to developers- come up here and buy 3x the farm they had. they tend to keep business to their own people.

i know of one that bought up 12 propertes at a tax sale. paid cash.

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RE: Amish School Shooting - 10/2/2006 6:16:07 PM   
popeye1250


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Everyone has "bad" things happen to them at some point in life, some more than others. I know I have.
Not everyone uses those things as an excuse to harm other people though. Most people don't.
That guy was just mentally unstable.

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RE: Amish School Shooting - 10/2/2006 6:39:29 PM   
Dtesmoac


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Seems in the last few weeks there have been at least three sets of school shootings in the US and a number before that. The response of arming the teachers, the kids or someone, anyone else as has been propossed seems mad.

If you are pissed off and in a society where there are very few guns you have to go out with a club or knife, you can still do damage but not commit multiple murders in the way it is achieved in the US where the easy access to guns makes every nutter a potential gun man.

Part of the description sounded similar to the Colarado incident and if this is copy cat then free availability of guns doesn't help.

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RE: Amish School Shooting - 10/2/2006 6:49:49 PM   
Rule


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Any evil person will applaud your moral position. Next he will murder you, rape your wife and enslave your little ones and take possession of your properties.

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RE: Amish School Shooting - 10/2/2006 7:18:01 PM   
popeye1250


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Dtes, it doesn't help if they're not in the right hands.
Every single state that has adopted a lawfull concealed firearm law has seen a decrease in crime.

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RE: Amish School Shooting - 10/2/2006 11:43:49 PM   
DomKen


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quote:

ORIGINAL: popeye1250

Dtes, it doesn't help if they're not in the right hands.
Every single state that has adopted a lawfull concealed firearm law has seen a decrease in crime.

Bull. Every single state, whether it has adopted a concealed carry law or not, has seen a decrease in violent crime rates.

One thing correlates to violent crime rates. The percentage of males 15 to 25 years of age in the population. Graph that and compare it to violent crime and the pattern is unmistakable. The present low ebb of violent crime, and yes this a low point, is due the population having relatively few young men of the right age. As the next baby boomlet reaches these ages in a few years crime rates will go up regardless of concealed carry laws or capital punishment or any of the other so called deterents of the right wingers.

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RE: Amish School Shooting - 10/3/2006 1:15:15 AM   
LadyEllen


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Now I've heard more about it, I can understand better what this man was about. He seems to have carried a grudge against girls for 20 years, during which he clearly tried to put it behind him and build a reasonable life, but in the end whatever was done to him in his childhood got the better of him and tipped him into an act so terrible that we are now condemning him as an insane, evil person.

The manner in which he reconciled the inner turmoil he felt was totally unacceptable and insane and evil, of that there is no question - but we have to ask ourselves, how and why did this man have such a mindset in the first place? I suspect some sort of humiliating and degrading treatment at the hands of girls when he was 12, which as a male he was never able to deal with and was not permitted to deal with by the way our society forbids boys' and men's expression of hurt and pain. It never went away, however much it was repressed, and eventually burst forth in an awful explosion of anger.

And the interesting thing to me, is that so often these people who go on violent rampages are condemned as insane and evil, and that so often the source of the anger which led them to their criminal slaughter of innocents, is the maltreatment they have received from others in their lives, through abuse, harassment, exclusion and violence directed towards them by arrogant and ignorant and insensitive people.

We can talk all day about how insane and evil this man was, how gun crime is under/out of control and whatever. In the end, it would seem that the best way to prevent the brooding anger which leads to these sorts of incidents, is to make sure that in all of our dealings we are fair and respectful to others, and that our children are brought up the same. How often do we see children excluding one another from this or that group, bullying one another, treating with disdain their peers who are not in their group? This is where such resentment and anger begins - many deal with it, some dont, and even one who doesnt can lead to mass slaughter such as we see so often, which takes in many victims. And we, the adults do exactly the same to one another, albeit that we dont call it by the same names we ascribe to our children's actions.

The guilt for this crime lies with the murderer. But I cant help but think that the blame for his anger lies with our society and the way we deal with one another every day.

There are now several girls and young women in critical condition in hospital, with head wounds which if they should survive them, will likely leave them crippled and brain damaged for life. Four, as of now, have already died. The murderer has killed himself. Amish families and their community have been damaged irreparably by the loss of a whole generation of daughters. And the murderer's wife is widowed and his three children orphaned.

If thats not enough of a toll to make us all think very carefully about how we deal with one another, to avoid sowing the seeds of resentment and anger in others that we do every day, then heaven help all of us. Its not as emotionally satisfying as condemning the murderer and wishing the wrath of whoever on his soul, and it is a lessson from this and all the previous similar incidents which no one wants to hear.
E

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RE: Amish School Shooting - 10/3/2006 5:12:02 AM   
Rule


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I concur. You are wise, LE.
 
Fortunately most often the victims are the people who slighted the perpetrator. They got what they sowed.
 
Unfortunately, in this case the victims were innocents.

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RE: Amish School Shooting - 10/3/2006 5:36:42 AM   
LadyEllen


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Rule

I concur. You are wise, LE.
 
Fortunately most often the victims are the people who slighted the perpetrator. They got what they sowed.
 
Unfortunately, in this case the victims were innocents.


Thank you Rule, though I expect to be well roasted in the flames for what I said. I expect most will go in for the wrath of whoever stuff, and reject that all of us bear responsibility for ensuring the seeds of such incidents are not sown. Its an easier and more satisfying option to condemn the perpetrator than to look at why this stuff keeps happening.
E

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RE: Amish School Shooting - 10/3/2006 5:46:16 AM   
KenDckey


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I don't believe that arming students or teachers is a solution.  

Many schools with JROTC programs have weapons (old bolt action springfield rifles mostly for cerimonial purposes and .22 cal rifles for target practice).  The weapons are secured in vaults that if you don't have the key would require a blow torch to access.  Even if they got access the people (students and staff) are not generally combat trained

Some schools have armed officers, metal detectors, and security fences surrounding them.  They have cut down on school violence probabilities but have not eliminated it.

I could be mistaken, but I believe that generally speaking, the majority of these instances occur with people who are or have become unstable for some reason.  My son was just medically retired from the Army because of the instability he suffers as a direct result of what he has seen and had to do.  Because of this he is forfit of the family cap and ball weapon and it will go to his son when I die.  And their are laws prohibiting possession of some weapons in the hands of those that are mentally unstable.

How do we identify these unstable persons and segregate them in some manner to preclude them from acting out in such a manner?   I don't know.

Is the eliminateion of all weapons the answer?   I don't believe so.  Besides rifles and pistols, there are so many things that can be used as weapons - kitchen knives, hammers, pipes, lumber, and so on almost ad infinum.

So what is the solution?   I don't know.   It is sad, it is unfortunate, it is wrong.  I don't believe that anyone would disagree with that.  But I don't believe there is a single answer to the problem.

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RE: Amish School Shooting - 10/3/2006 5:55:24 AM   
Aileen68


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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyEllen

quote:

ORIGINAL: Rule

I concur. You are wise, LE.
 
Fortunately most often the victims are the people who slighted the perpetrator. They got what they sowed.
 
Unfortunately, in this case the victims were innocents.


Thank you Rule, though I expect to be well roasted in the flames for what I said. I expect most will go in for the wrath of whoever stuff, and reject that all of us bear responsibility for ensuring the seeds of such incidents are not sown. Its an easier and more satisfying option to condemn the perpetrator than to look at why this stuff keeps happening.
E


No flame here...but I think the biggest problem is that people aren't held responsible for their own actions anymore.  It's so very popular to pass the blame onto society.  I think society has a place, but it shouldn't be the answer for every wrong done to someone.  Every one has bad things happen to them in their lifetimes.  Most learn to cope in an acceptable manner.  Those that can't...well, this is a great example of what can happen.  Is it society's fault?  The individual's?   Personally, I think he was a nutcase that just snapped.  That happens.

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RE: Amish School Shooting - 10/3/2006 8:01:18 AM   
LadyJulieAnn


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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyEllen

We can talk all day about how insane and evil this man was, how gun crime is under/out of control and whatever. In the end, it would seem that the best way to prevent the brooding anger which leads to these sorts of incidents, is to make sure that in all of our dealings we are fair and respectful to others, and that our children are brought up the same. How often do we see children excluding one another from this or that group, bullying one another, treating with disdain their peers who are not in their group? This is where such resentment and anger begins - many deal with it, some dont, and even one who doesnt can lead to mass slaughter such as we see so often, which takes in many victims. And we, the adults do exactly the same to one another, albeit that we dont call it by the same names we ascribe to our children's actions.

If thats not enough of a toll to make us all think very carefully about how we deal with one another, to avoid sowing the seeds of resentment and anger in others that we do every day, then heaven help all of us. Its not as emotionally satisfying as condemning the murderer and wishing the wrath of whoever on his soul, and it is a lessson from this and all the previous similar incidents which no one wants to hear.
E


I agree with most of what you have to say, but bullying and peer group exclusion is nothing new.  I went through it and I would guess that most here have also been in those situations growing up.  Perhaps it's more a case of ignoring the obvious.  I would ask why this man's wife never saw any indication of his resentment and anger in the 10 years they were married?  What about his coworkers?  I find it difficult to believe that no one would have seen something different about his behavior leading up to this tragic event.  When I used to work with children with behavior problems, we were taught to catch changes in their behavior before a situation escalated.  I wonder how this piece was missed.

Be well,
Julie


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