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RE: The Lying Submissive - 10/9/2006 5:38:31 AM   
MsIncognito


Posts: 742
Joined: 5/24/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: teamnoir

Depends on the lie, the reasons behind it, and the social acceptance of the lie. "It was a lovely party" seems to be a socially acceptable lie, eg.


I agree. White lies as social lubricant is something everyone does (yes, even dominants).  IMO, those are inconsequential and at times necessary. However, anything beyond that would signal to me a major character flaw and if they will lie to others they will eventually lie to me as well.

(in reply to teamnoir)
Profile   Post #: 41
RE: The Lying Submissive - 10/9/2006 6:16:37 AM   
WetHotGoddess


Posts: 128
Joined: 5/18/2006
Status: offline 		The dominant should be accountable for themselves as well as their submissive.  If a sub entrapped a dom/me  in a lie- what sub would attempt to trap a dominant, unless there was a problem with the relationship in the first place?  If the integrity of the dominant is in question, the submissive should leave. 
 



quote:

ORIGINAL: raevyntc

quote:

ORIGINAL: bandit25

What about the Dom who lies to the sub?  Does the reverse hold true also?


Let us turn the tables in an attempt to answer Bandit's question, shall we?
 
What about the Dom who lies publicly or to their subbie for self aggrandizement or in order to be vindictive either in person or online? What if he goes so far as to have his submissive or other parties back him up?
 
Should the submissive leave the dominant for such behavior?
 
 Does it matter if the dominant was caught doing so?
 
What if the dominant was set up in order to be caught in a lie? Does that make the lie less of an offence as it was deliberate entrapment?
 
Should the submissive demand their dominant to come clean or should the submissive keep backing up the dominant so they themselves do not look foolish or because they were ordered to keep it to themselves?
 
As a submissive would you think less of your dominant for this behavior?
 


_____________________________

ARIEL

Your opinion is very important to us. Please hold for the next available representative.

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(in reply to raevyntc)
Profile   Post #: 42
RE: The Lying Submissive - 10/9/2006 8:03:41 AM   
Mavis


Posts: 828
Joined: 2/8/2004
Status: offline 		i had one instance where i thought Master was lying/ bragging about something in His career history.  i heard what sounded like "tales of glory" and i shushed for a few hours, but as it came up again, i went flippo.  i said "You're bragging, or out and out lying.  i'm not listening to it" and headed to another room. 

After i stomped off, i had steeled myself to not bring it up again, to allow HIM to correct it and apologise.  i would not rub His nose in it, but i had made it clear He was "caught" and the ball was in His court.    He didn't chase me down to deny the accusation, so i was even more sure i was dead-on.  and oh, i was so sure-fire affronted that He would lie to ME,  because yanno, i am soo without fault myself...

Two Hours later, Hubby was able to correct me as He had proof the "tale" was true.  i had to slither into Masters space, and face down apologise.  W/we had the most wonderful discussion of trust and honesty.  It was clear to U/us both, that if i didn't believe, and kept that to myself, it would have caused irreparable damage.  So my charge of lying, although done incorrectly.. was fair. Better i admit to disbelief than pretend i believed Him when i did not, and allow that to color my opinion of Him.

If it had turned out that He had been lying, would i have asked for release?  No.   But eventually the broken trust would eat at the core of O/our dynamic, so it would be a very sickly relationship until that was re-built.  But i can think of nobody in my world that would have been more deserving of forgiveness than He.

(in reply to WetHotGoddess)
Profile   Post #: 43
RE: The Lying Submissive - 10/9/2006 11:57:15 AM   
CreativeDominant


Posts: 11032
Joined: 3/11/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

I have been talking to my Daddy about the issue of lying. We all know how important submissives find  honesty in a dominant, and I have heard some reference to dominants finding their submissive lying to them to be completely unacceptable to the point of releasing a submissive for this infraction. The type of lying I am speaking of is the kind that a submissive might to do other people, either for self aggrandizement, or to be vindictive, or to keep themselves from being inconvenienced by others.

If you are a dominant would you keep a submissive that had lied to others? Would it depend on what these lies were? Would you demand your submissive come clean publicly if they lied, or would you cover up for them so you would not lose face?  

As a submissive would you expect to be kept by your dominant if you had been dishonest with others? Would you want your dominant to cover for you if you had lied?

Personally I would expect to be dumped for this behavior, but at the very least I would expect to own my behavior… in talking about this I was wondering if anyone had faced this issue or knew what they would do concerning this issue.

Thanks for your ideas and input


Like many on here, I consider honesty to be a virtue.  That said, there are qualifiers.  White lies told unselfishly (i.e. you are not gaining by the lie) not to hurt someone's feelings...O.K..  As Mavis mentioned, not informing your car/health insurance company that you're smoking again...~shrugs~...a bit stronger and harder to make a decision about but...O.K..
Lies told to get you over on your dominant or submissive, lies told to enhance your position at the expense of another at work, lies told to enhance your position in the community...whether they be about your relationship, your experience, whatever...., lies told to deliberately cause hurt to another, are not O.K. in my book.
In the final analysis for me, it comes down to this...where between the extreme edges of white lies to protect another's feelings and lying that places another in danger does the lie fall?  Is it a case of chronicity...does this person ALWAYS lie?  Even if all they do is tell little white lies; if it is done all the time, then to me it seems there might be something else going on. 

With big lies, I don't want to be around that anymore.  As noted on here before, I went through my own issues with that and I've had the "payback karma" of dealing with a submissive who I found out pretty quickly (luckily) was a lot like I had been.  So...............won't go there with anyone, either on my part or theirs.

(in reply to juliaoceania)
Profile   Post #: 44
RE: The Lying Submissive - 10/9/2006 12:07:13 PM   
Mavis


Posts: 828
Joined: 2/8/2004
Status: offline 		re-reading this, i'm amazed at how it sounds like i live in a dsyfunctional world of lies.  lol.  it's really only Two,  and one incorrectly thought to be a lie..  but i feel bad i have the highest percentage of lie stories here. 

(in reply to CreativeDominant)
Profile   Post #: 45
RE: The Lying Submissive - 10/9/2006 12:10:52 PM   
juliaoceania


Posts: 21383
Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Mavis

re-reading this, i'm amazed at how it sounds like i live in a dsyfunctional world of lies.  lol.  it's really only Two,  and one incorrectly thought to be a lie..  but i feel bad i have the highest percentage of lie stories here. 



Actually mavis, I did not get that impression, I get the impression that you are being completely honest in your posts.

Don't sweat the small stuff, and it is all small stuff

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

(in reply to Mavis)
Profile   Post #: 46
RE: The Lying Submissive - 10/9/2006 12:30:00 PM   
HunterLA


Posts: 8
Joined: 7/24/2004
Status: offline 		Good topic. My two cents is:

Honesty is a principle of action and its merit is irrespective of lifestyle or being Dom or Sub. I agree with abstract_servant on this point. To try to rationalize dishonesty as part of D/s or BDSM is, in itself, dishonest.

Honesty, like all other moral questions, is relative and contingent. If a man comes to your door with a gun and asks if your child is home so they can kill them, you have a moral obligation to lie. I eggagerate for the sake of clarity, but you get the point. Likewise, if you will suffer (professionally or otherwise) because of predjudice because you're gay, or non-vanilla, or a recovered alcoholic, or whatever, you have a right to lie to protect yourself.  One would hope that would not be nessesary in this day and age, but we know it is. I'm not out at work about my being a Dominant and I don't plan to be. Its not their business. Its a boundary issue. My sexuality is not relevant at work.

The danger is that its really easy to stretch that to the breaking point and lie when its simply convienient.  If a man asks if you'll always obey his every command, and you lie, you're just avoiding an uncomfortable truth and asking for trouble. Eventually, the truth will come out. Better to speak the truth and let things fall where they may. Maybe you don't belong serving that man. By lying you're putting yourself where you shouldn't be and it may take years to get back on track. Maybe you really need to have a conversation about obedience and it will strenghthen your bond.

The point is, none of us know where we're supposed to be, or what is supposed to happen next. The best way to stay on one's true path is to be honest and let that lead you where it leads you. It's not always painless, but its clean.

As for "brutal honesty", well, I have a rule for myself. What I say has to be true, nessesary and kind. If its not all three, I keep my mouth shut. I may think your hair looks like shit, but is telling you really nessesary? If you asked, and you want my answer, then I have an obligation to be kind. "I liked your old hairstyle better", or "I don't think it shows you off in your best light", not "wow, who fucked up your hair". Using "honesty" as a sheild for being rude or unnessesarily hurtful is immature.

As for putting up with it from a sub, I don't deal well with dishonesty from anyone. I quickly chose not to be around it. If you're willing to lie to me to avoid the petty pain of dealing with the fact that you did somthing I asked you not to do,  then when the stakes are higher and there is real pain in the offing, OF COURSE you'll lie. Why would I set myself up for that.

Anyway, I've ranted too long already .

Hunter

(in reply to diamonddreamlove)
Profile   Post #: 47
RE: The Lying Submissive - 10/9/2006 12:37:34 PM   
darkinshadows


Posts: 4145
Joined: 6/2/2004
From: UK
Status: offline
Almost everyone lies.  It is understanding the lie that is important.
Honesty is different - you can lie and still be honest - you can lie honestly.
Honesty is subjective.
 
Peace and Rapture


_____________________________
.dark.



...i surrender to gravity and the unknown...

(in reply to juliaoceania)
Profile   Post #: 48
RE: The Lying Submissive - 10/9/2006 1:15:39 PM   
LordODiscipline


Posts: 995
Joined: 6/28/2004
Status: offline 		One complete truth:
 
Everyone lies.
 
Thereis no escaping it - there are lies told that exist in everyday speach and are accepted by others as a matter of course.
 
The differentiation between 'what is' and 'what is not' acceptable is subjective to the person listening to the lie.
 
I sincerely dislike (not that you are doing this) the statement often made: "If my [dominant/submssive] every lied to me, I would <end the relationship>."
 
Or, (much worse) A [dominant/submissive] neve lies." (which is in itself a complete and unadulterated lie as long as that [dominant/submissive] is a human being)
 
That being said: I have ended relationships where the other person lied to me (usually often and without remorse - some people do it with a genuine alacrity which is amazing and there is no stopping them). But, (as mentioned) those lies were continuous and may not have had (even) anything to do woth self promotion or profit - they just "were".
 
We have all met someone like that in our lives and we either decide to ignore it... or, we terminate our relationship with them.
 
("How did you know she was lieing to you??"
 
"Well, her lips were moving")
 
My point is
 
- we all have to determine the degree to which we will accept lieing in our lives...
 
a white lie "There is a Santa Claus, Virginia!"
a lie of profit: "and, if you give me your milk money - I will let him know what a great little girl you are!!"
a lie of cowardice: "I would have protected you from the mugger - but, there was something in my eye"
a lie of subterfuge: "I know you would have protected me and, that is 'ok' - now drink your milk ALL UP - and then lie down forr a nap!"
 
And,. the list goes on....
 
Rambling:
 
~J
 
PS: If someone tells you they are completely honest and 'do not lie' - they are lying to you and themselves...
 

_____________________________

"Anyone who thinks they're important is usually just a pompous moron who can't deal with his or her own pathetic insignificance and the fact that what they do is meaningless and inconsequential."
William Thomas

(in reply to juliaoceania)
Profile   Post #: 49
RE: The Lying Submissive - 10/9/2006 1:29:49 PM   
justheather


Posts: 1532
Joined: 10/4/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: LordODiscipline
a white lie "There is a Santa Claus, Virginia!"
a lie of profit: "and, if you give me your milk money - I will let him know what a great little girl you are!!"
a lie of cowardice: "I would have protected you from the mugger - but, there was something in my eye"
a lie of subterfuge: "I know you would have protected me and, that is 'ok' - now drink your milk ALL UP - and then lie down forr a nap!"
 
And,. the list goes on....
 
Rambling:
 
~J
 
PS: If someone tells you they are completely honest and 'do not lie' - they are lying to you and themselves...
 


I do not believe that telling lies is automatically a part of everyday life. I believe that there are moments in which we can choose to tell a small, convenient lie and move on in our little bubbles or to interact with that person on a genuine and honest level.

"Im sorry I didnt protect you from that mugger. I was frightened and I froze."
"I am disappointed and hurt that you didnt protect me from that mugger, but I am grateful to you for being honest with me."

Ive never extorted milk money from a child, so I have no idea how to handle that one in an honest and open manner.
Now, as far as Santa goes. Yeah, that's a lie we tell our kids. I try to soften it with mine, every year being a little bit more about the "idea" or "spirit" of Santa, but you got me on that one.

Oh, and if a person doesnt believe that the types of interactions I described above occur in people's everyday lives, well, I feel sorry for that person.

_____________________________

I want the scissors to be sharp
And the table perfectly level
When you cut me out of my life
And paste me in that book you always carry.
-Billy Collins

(in reply to LordODiscipline)
Profile   Post #: 50
RE: The Lying Submissive - 10/9/2006 2:09:59 PM   
ShiftedJewel


Posts: 2492
Joined: 12/2/2004
Status: offline
quote:

a white lie "There is a Santa Claus, Virginia!"


Say it isn't so Joseph!!! Santa is REAL!!! I just know it!!!
 
Jewel
 
I believe... I believe... do you hear me Santa... I believe!!!

_____________________________

Don't ask, trust me, you won't like the answer... no one ever does.

(in reply to LordODiscipline)
Profile   Post #: 51
RE: The Lying Submissive - 10/9/2006 2:14:48 PM   
twicehappy


Posts: 2706
Joined: 2/5/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: ShiftedJewel

quote:

a white lie "There is a Santa Claus, Virginia!"


Say it isn't so Joseph!!! Santa is REAL!!! I just know it!!!
 
I believe... I believe... do you hear me Santa... I believe!!!



We know there is a Scooter Clause!!!!!!
 

http://www.collarchat.com/m_446175/mpage_1/key_ScooterClause/tm.htm#447510

On the first day of Christmas, 
Scooter Clause gave to me
a slave in a sex swing! 

On the second day of Christmas, 
Scooter Clause gave to me
Two girls in a tub, 
and a slave in a sex swing! 

On the third day of Christmas, 
Scooter Clause gave to me
Three French ticklers, 
Two girls in a tub, 
And a slave in a sex swing! 

On the fourth day of Christmas, 
Scooter Clause gave to me
Four collard babes, 
Three French ticklers, 
Two girls in a tub, 
And a slave in a sex swing! 

On the fifth day of Christmas, 
Scooter Clause gave to me
Five sets of rings, 
Four collard babes, 
Three French ticklers, 
Two girls in a tub, 
And a slave in a sex swing! 

On the sixth day of Christmas, 
Scooter Clause gave to me
Six girls for laying, 
Five sets of rings, 
Four collard babes, 
Three French ticklers, 
Two girls in a tub, 
And a slave in a sex swing! 

On the seventh day of Christmas, 
Scooter Clause gave to me
Seven ropes for binding, 
Six girls for laying, 
Five sets of rings, 
Four collard babes, 
Three French ticklers, 
Two girls in a tub, 
And a slave in a sex swing! 

On the eighth day of Christmas, 
Scooter Clause gave to me
Eight maids for corrupting, 
Seven ropes for binding, 
Six girls for laying, 
Five sets of rings, 
Four collard babes, 
Three French ticklers, 
Two girls in a tub, 
And a slave in a sex swing! 

On the ninth day of Christmas, 
Scooter Clause gave to me
Nine ladies lap dancing, 
Eight maids for corrupting, 
Seven ropes for binding, 
Six girls for laying, 
Five sets of rings, 
Four collard babes, 
Three French ticklers, 
Two girls in a tub, 
And a slave in a sex swing! 

On the tenth day of Christmas, 
Scooter Clause gave to me
Ten babes for spanking, 
Nine ladies lap dancing, 
Eight maids for corrupting, 
Seven ropes for binding, 
Six girls for laying, 
Five sets of rings, 
Four collard babes, 
Three French ticklers, 
Two girls in a tub, 
And a slave in a sex swing! 

On the eleventh day of Christmas, 
Scooter Clause gave to me
Eleven floggers for flogging, 
Ten babes for spanking, 
Nine ladies lap dancing, 
Eight maids for corrupting, 
Seven ropes for binding, 
Six girls for laying, 
Five sets of rings, 
Four collard babes, 
Three French ticklers, 
Two girls in a tub, 
And a slave in a sex swing! 

On the twelfth day of Christmas, 
Scooter Clause gave to me
Twelve whips for whipping, 
Eleven floggers for flogging, 
Ten babes for spanking, 
Nine ladies lap dancing, 
Eight maids for corrupting, 
Seven ropes for binding, 
Six girls for laying, 
Five sets of rings, 
Four collard babes, 
Three French ticklers, 
Two girls in a tub, 
And a slave in a sex swing! 


_____________________________

Infinite Diversity in Infinite Combinations.

The human heart is not a finite container but an ever expanding universe with all the stars contained there in.

(in reply to ShiftedJewel)
Profile   Post #: 52
RE: The Lying Submissive - 10/9/2006 2:25:10 PM   
LaTigresse


Posts: 26123
Joined: 1/15/2006
Status: offline 		I know where I am going for Christmas this year!

_____________________________

My twisted, self deprecating, sense of humour, finds alot to laugh about, in your lack of one!

Just because you are well educated, articulate, and can use big, fancy words, properly........does not mean you are right!

(in reply to twicehappy)
Profile   Post #: 53
RE: The Lying Submissive - 10/9/2006 2:32:34 PM   
Emperor1956


Posts: 2370
Joined: 11/7/2005
Status: offline 		In rereading this thread, it occurs to Me that some folks might be interested in two excellent books by Sisella Bok that explore both  issues of lies and lying, and secrecy and omission:

Lying: Moral Choice in Public and Private Life and
Secrets: On the Ethics of Concealment and Revelation
 
Much of "Lying" concerns the moral and ethical underpinnings of "white lies" (and other 'good' lies such as lies of protection, lies to the sick and dying, lies of parents to children and lies told to enemies) and the consequences of lying. 

E.

_____________________________

"When you wake up, Pooh," said Piglet, "what's the first thing you say?"
"What's for breakfast? What do you say, Piglet?"
"I say, I wonder what's going to happen exciting today?"
Pooh nodded thoughtfully.
"It's the same thing," he said.

(in reply to LuckyAlbatross)
Profile   Post #: 54
RE: The Lying Submissive - 10/9/2006 2:37:44 PM   
agirl


Posts: 4530
Joined: 6/14/2004
Status: offline 		I lie at least on a weekly basis to my Master.

Master: Are you in bed?
Me: Um.....almost.
Master: Where are you then?
Me: I needed to pee.
Master: Ahhhh, ok.
Microwave: PING
Master: What was that?
Me: What was what?
Master: That *ping*.
Me: I don't know.....I didn't hear a ping.
Master: Flush the toilet.
Me:......(running as quietly as I can upstairs)....FLUSH!!
Master: Crumbs.
Me: What Master?
Master: You're the only person I know with a microwave in their bathroom!
Me: Oh bugger. How do you KNOWwwwwwwwww??
Master: It's my job.....lol
Me: Sigh..
Master: Hurry up and get your scrawny arse into bed!
Me: Yes Master...grin.

agirl



(in reply to juliaoceania)
Profile   Post #: 55
RE: The Lying Submissive - 10/9/2006 3:53:32 PM   
juliaoceania


Posts: 21383
Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
Status: offline 		Actually, my son never believed in Santa Claus... I know that is completely unamerican of me, but I seriously did not want to lie to him... Everyone I know tells their kids there is a santa, I do not know why I took such a stand about it, but I did

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

(in reply to justheather)
Profile   Post #: 56
RE: The Lying Submissive - 10/9/2006 3:57:34 PM   
MASTERRocker


Posts: 277
Joined: 9/19/2006
From: Kitchener-Waterloo, ON
Status: offline 		WHAT!!!!!!!   No Santa Claus!!!!!  << now I have to go and lie down.... and NO!!! I am not submissive.....'winks'

(in reply to juliaoceania)
Profile   Post #: 57
RE: The Lying Submissive - 10/9/2006 4:00:43 PM   
justheather


Posts: 1532
Joined: 10/4/2005
Status: offline 		Like most of my parenting choices, I gave it a good bit of thought before I decided to go ahead and "do the Santa thing" with my offspring. So, I don't think it's odd or unamerican of you to make the choice not to make that myth a part of your child's life. I have not taken any of the Major Parenting Decisions Ive made lightly and knowing what I do about you Im sure you gave thought to the matter before you decided to follow the path you did. You have to do what works for you.

_____________________________

I want the scissors to be sharp
And the table perfectly level
When you cut me out of my life
And paste me in that book you always carry.
-Billy Collins

(in reply to juliaoceania)
Profile   Post #: 58
RE: The Lying Submissive - 10/9/2006 4:04:38 PM   
MASTERRocker


Posts: 277
Joined: 9/19/2006
From: Kitchener-Waterloo, ON
Status: offline 		OKAY!!! Everyone stop!!! Who else beleives with justheather and juliaoceania that there is NO Santa Claus????
What next????? No Easter Bunny???  Or the Great Pumpkin?????

(in reply to justheather)
Profile   Post #: 59
RE: The Lying Submissive - 10/9/2006 4:07:26 PM   
justheather


Posts: 1532
Joined: 10/4/2005
Status: offline 		Ok, now I drew the line at the Easter Bunny.
I will not take my youn'un to see the Easter Bunny and here is why:

Fat, jolly guy with beard in red suit, not a problem.

Big giant white plush being in polka-dotted bowtie with mesh eyes larger than my head? Something is wrong with that.

_____________________________

I want the scissors to be sharp
And the table perfectly level
When you cut me out of my life
And paste me in that book you always carry.
-Billy Collins

(in reply to MASTERRocker)
Profile   Post #: 60
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