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transparency, honesty and d/s flirting. - 1/21/2005 6:46:12 PM   
VyperX


Posts: 8
Joined: 5/17/2004
Status: offline 		I'm realizing a conundrum.

In normal vanilla dating, (when you're good at it,) there is a bit of a predator/prey element in the milieu. Knowing how to feign just the right degree of disinterest, for example, is a key skill in the hunt.

Now, on the surface, you'd think that in d/s, with the increased need for honesty and transparency, that this wouldn't be the case. But it is.

I don't want to do that (or any other standard date-ploy.) It's a falsehood. It's getting off on the wrong foot.

And why would emotional openness not be the best policy? Maybe because if everyone else is playing the normal dating/mating games, and if you aren't -- you stand out. And among a bunch of self-confessed perverts, (like me,) maybe that carries with it an extra hint of too-real danger.

In the final analysis, though, I really have no choice but to still be me.

But I'd really appreciate thoughts on this.
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RE: transparency, honesty and d/s flirting. - 1/21/2005 7:19:13 PM   
CTclay


Posts: 123
Joined: 11/6/2004
Status: offline 		I think the honesty and transparency that D/s demands has more to do with safety issues for a submissive who needs to know that the dominant isn't dangerous, which still leaves a lot of room for things like feigning disinterest.

In BDSM, people are still people, so most of the little ways of making yourself look better in others' eyes still apply. And on top of that, there are more men chasing fewer women, aren't there? Of course, nothing justifies lies. Otherwise, underneath it all, I think it's a bit like a job interview -- for both sides. Just a lot more fun because you can't flirt during most job interviews. Or get naked. I mean, for just about all of them.




(in reply to VyperX)
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RE: transparency, honesty and d/s flirting. - 1/21/2005 7:31:39 PM   
Atavist


Posts: 124
Joined: 6/14/2004
Status: offline 		Its a good question, one that I think everyone experiences (dancing the dance) consciously or not.

Partly out of my own experience (lessons learned) and just my own personality, I've found its best to be direct. Nothing wrong with innocent flirting, which is really easy to do online.

In the long run, if your untruthful it'll be found out and you probably won't feel too good about yourself anyway. Not to mention that its not fair to the other party involved. Besides, I wouldn't want anyone to want an I image I project and not me. It'd be alot of work playing a role and I'm much too lazy for it.

On the whole I'd say there's an incredible amount of thespianism going on here and elsewhere, by both sex's.

(in reply to VyperX)
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RE: transparency, honesty and d/s flirting. - 1/21/2005 8:04:17 PM   
Laura


Posts: 573
Joined: 6/22/2004
From: Ontario, Canada
Status: offline 		I don't play games. Anyone who wants to dance around and play games loses my interest right away. I've never understood why some people feel the need to make things so much more complicated and aggravating. Keep it simple or just keep out of my way.

_____________________________

Bait & Switch - Adult column

(in reply to Atavist)
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RE: transparency, honesty and d/s flirting. - 1/21/2005 8:25:44 PM   
CTclay


Posts: 123
Joined: 11/6/2004
Status: offline
quote:

Anyone who wants to dance around and play games loses my interest right away.


I'm afraid the wisdom of the ages is against you:

"You've got to be honest; if you can fake that, you've got it made." -- George Burns

"The secret of life is honesty and fair dealing. If you can fake that, you've
got it made." -- Groucho Marx

"The key to success is sincerity, and if you can fake that, you can do anything."
-- Author Unknown

"Honesty is the only thing you need in a relationship. If you can fake that, you're in."
-- Courtney Cox - Monica on "Friends"




(in reply to Laura)
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RE: transparency, honesty and d/s flirting. - 1/21/2005 8:29:32 PM   
Laura


Posts: 573
Joined: 6/22/2004
From: Ontario, Canada
Status: offline 		You think I care about a few quotes? I live the way I choose to live. If I'm not impressed with myself no one else will be either. Live up to your own standards. There's a quote to add to your list.

Try not to be afraid.

< Message edited by Laura -- 1/21/2005 8:30:13 PM >

_____________________________

Bait & Switch - Adult column

(in reply to CTclay)
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RE: transparency, honesty and d/s flirting. - 1/21/2005 9:24:49 PM   
liljoy


Posts: 577
Joined: 3/25/2004
Status: offline 		i've never been good at the games either, never saw the point.


yes i do know the art of flirting. i don't see that as the same thing at all.

It's true online you can be anything you want to be. i want r/t though so it wouldn't have made sense to pretend to be something different than what i am.

Even for those that never wish r/t i think it would be unwise to pretend to be something that you're not. To prened to be something that you're not first of all says to me that you have a problem with who or what you are. Pretending to be something else only feeds those feeling and makes them grow. i can't see how that would be healthy or wise

jmho
lil_joy

(in reply to Laura)
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RE: transparency, honesty and d/s flirting. - 1/21/2005 9:35:08 PM   
CTclay


Posts: 123
Joined: 11/6/2004
Status: offline
quote:

You think I care about a few quotes? I live the way I choose to live. If I'm not impressed with myself no one else will be either. Live up to your own standards. There's a quote to add to your list.

Try not to be afraid.


You've convinced me. Whereas previously I believed in deceit, now I'm in favor of honesty. Thank-you for taking me seriously.

(in reply to Laura)
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RE: transparency, honesty and d/s flirting. - 1/22/2005 6:08:14 AM   
realophelia


Posts: 168
Status: offline
quote:

And why would emotional openness not be the best policy? Maybe because if everyone else is playing the normal dating/mating games, and if you aren't -- you stand out.


I think emotional honesty is the best policy. I used to turn myself inside out to be what other people wanted. And it's amazing how much emotional trouble you can get into doing that.

As far as dating goes, I have always been pretty straight-forward about whether or not I was interested in someone. I can't ever remember that putting anybody off. The last time around I was also very direct about what I looking for. It wasn't easy for me to do that but it did pay off.

I think that being your authentic self is always a risk. It's usually much safer to figure out what someone wants, and just be that. The problem with that approach is that you end up in the wrong relationships with the wrong people. And I don't think anyone can really be happy pretending to be something they're not.

~Ophelia

_____________________________

"And every one of them words rang true And glowed like burning coal Pouring off of every page Like it was written in my soul..."

(in reply to VyperX)
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RE: transparency, honesty and d/s flirting. - 1/22/2005 8:46:42 AM   
Moleculor


Posts: 189
Joined: 5/23/2004
Status: offline 		I find that those who say they don't like games all too often play the games without even realizing it. It's not a "game" to them, it's just how it's done.

*shrug* Such is life.

All I'll be is me, and when I find someone who is compatible with me, I'll know. I don't need to worry about whether or not I'm playing or not playing, or they're playing or not playing.

(in reply to realophelia)
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RE: transparency, honesty and d/s flirting. - 1/22/2005 12:34:35 PM   
Shayna


Posts: 205
Joined: 1/16/2005
Status: offline 		"Dating" is complicated. It involves human beings and those slippery things called feelings. What might seem like dishonesty to one person could be the result of the other person changing their mind about continuing to see each other. I've been on both sides of this. On one hand you are getting all the signs of someone swept away with you: they talk about the future, can't seem to get enough physically and emotionally, but after a few weeks or so they are gone. Sometimes abruptly, other times with a muffled, embarrassed explanation. I've done that as well, although I always tell someone how I'm feeling.

The reality is that during a relationship one or both people may change their minds. They may or may not know why their feelings have changed, but they just have. There is nothing wrong with that, but it still hurts the other partner who feels like the rug was pulled out from under them with perhaps no explanation. Affairs of the heart are always a risk, but for me I don't regret taking them; I always learn something new about myself.


(in reply to Moleculor)
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RE: transparency, honesty and d/s flirting. - 1/22/2005 2:56:50 PM   
FangsNfeet


Posts: 3758
Joined: 12/3/2004
Status: offline 		When I'm out in populated areas where I don't know who is into what, I normally put out key words such as Scene, Session, Corrsett Training, and mention something about spanking from time to time. If discussions lead to treatments of certain prisoners and such I would talk about using whips and chains along with various tourture techniques. If reading and books come up, I'll mention Gor, The Story of O, and writtings by Marquis de Sade. If anyone in the life style is around, I'm sure they'll figure out that I am to. If it's a one on one date; I'll mention a few things, see how that person responds, and go from there. For I like being honest, but it dosn't mean I have to spit everything out of the first date or meeting.

_____________________________

I'm Godzilla and you're Japan

(in reply to VyperX)
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RE: transparency, honesty and d/s flirting. - 1/22/2005 3:08:30 PM   
Darthbetta


Posts: 314
Joined: 12/16/2004
Status: offline 		I like dancing.

I just perferr it to be hot and saucy while in the center of a packed techno club with 2 hawt subs and them making all the other men drool.




_____________________________

Some of us have an inane knack for calling people on their Bullshit... I just choose to retort with bitter dry Sarcasm, and occasionaly it sinks in. Mostly, I just look like an ass.

(in reply to FangsNfeet)
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RE: transparency, honesty and d/s flirting. - 1/22/2005 6:24:08 PM   
ShiftedJewel


Posts: 2492
Joined: 12/2/2004
Status: offline 		Personally I have to believe that being totally honest and open is the only way to find exactly what it is that you are looking for. Otherwise you are presenting something that isn't real. I/we may never find what we are looking for in this particular forum, as far as I'm concerned that's so much better then finding something we don't really want to begin with. I won't "settle" for something that is close to what I seek, I'll never be that lonely or desperate. It has to start with being completely honest with yourself, until you master that you can't be honest with others.

SJ

(in reply to Laura)
Profile   Post #: 14
RE: transparency, honesty and d/s flirting. - 1/22/2005 10:43:06 PM   
Mouthy


Posts: 35
Joined: 1/18/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Shayna

"Dating" is complicated. It involves human beings and those slippery things called feelings. What might seem like dishonesty to one person could be the result of the other person changing their mind about continuing to see each other. ... The reality is that during a relationship one or both people may change their minds. They may or may not know why their feelings have changed, but they just have. There is nothing wrong with that, but it still hurts the other partner who feels like the rug was pulled out from under them with perhaps no explanation.


SO TRUE, Shayna!

Personal story time: Within this last year, I once fell into a mood of such horniness I left a very explicit ad on a kinky, local, match-making website. Got a DELUGE of responses which ran the gamut--explicit, vulgar, polite, enthusiastic--and everything in between.

Unfortunately, and to my horror, I realized very quickly that although most of the men responding were genuinely interested in precisely what I'd advertised for, my feelings had changed, in part just because of the huge numbers of men coming at me all at the same time, every one seemingly with a rock-hard hardon right now and dying to use it right now, and in part because when I did actually have a scene of the kind I'd advertised for a couple times, it wasn't bad, really, but it wasn't the way I wanted to keep going, either.

So, there I was: I'd realized I didn't really want to fuck the entire nation right when it seemed the entire nation was coming at me! So, over the course of the next couple weeks I had the unlovely chore of working very hard at being honest with all these men about my dismay at having brought this situation on myself, and consequently having to say no so much, and for having been so dim in failing to anticipate the reaction to my ad.

I did eventually cool it all down, but there was this one guy ... he took my change of heart really hard. He'd really wanted to go where he thought he could go with me. He appreciated that I'd been honest and open with him, but he was hurt -- and he had a right to be, I think. From his perspective, I'd just engaged in the classic "now I'm here, now I'm not" sort of malicious tease that you hear so many men complain of and I HAD disappointed him and he HAD apparently been disappointed by women a lot in his time. So, he left a parting email in which he expressed all that and also said, "I don't need a response, I just want to say WHY DO WOMEN ***DO*** THAT?"

Well, I don't know why the other women did what they did that disappointed him. I know what I'd have liked to say, except that he didn't want to hear it: If I had known BEFORE I left that ad, what I knew almost immediately AFTER I left that ad, I WOULDN'T HAVE LEFT THAT AD. I'm a human being on a learning curve. I like to think we're ALL learning from our experiences and not just idiots doomed to repeat the same idiotic, unexamined patterns over and over again, always obtaining the same idiotic results.

I guess my point, if I even have one, is: I believe that if we're going to flirt we should do it carefully, with all the honor and fairness that we can because even when we mean WELL, and deal straight up, we can STILL hurt people we never intended to hurt and when we do that, the unintended impact and the regret can last a very long time. Take it from me!

(in reply to Shayna)
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RE: transparency, honesty and d/s flirting. - 1/23/2005 6:42:25 AM   
domtimothy46176


Posts: 670
Joined: 12/25/2004
From: Dayton, Ohio area
Status: offline 		I think it's possible to flirt in a D/s sense and still be scrupulously honest. Hinting at one is willing to do under the right circumstances can be very enticing. Doing so honestly gives the flirtee the necessary information needed to either escalate the flirtation or stop it. I only consider the "courtship dance" dishonest if the hints bear little or no resemblance to what one is actually willing to do.
Timothy

(in reply to Mouthy)
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RE: transparency, honesty and d/s flirting. - 1/23/2005 8:15:56 AM   
CTclay


Posts: 123
Joined: 11/6/2004
Status: offline 		You said it perfectly.

(in reply to domtimothy46176)
Profile   Post #: 17
RE: transparency, honesty and d/s flirting. - 1/23/2005 9:11:55 AM   
subcheryl


Posts: 280
Joined: 11/2/2004
Status: offline 		Hi have posted before but don't seem to get them put in here, but going to give it a try if anyone can tell me how to keep postings in here would appreciate that. but as far as honesty when chatting in the postings here I most certainly would have appreciated it. I almost gave up on all of this lifestyle, with my first posting had many wannabe domes respond and when wouldn't have cybersex with them and such they all disappeared. So I changed my personal ad and told it all straight out that there would be no such games and that was looking for r/t and a ltr the craziness stopped for a couple of days then had 2 doms connect with me, and one have been chatting to on line and by phone, and he even gave me his address, both phone numbers, home and work, and is paying my way to meet with him and he hasn't once talked sexually with me even when I ask, and we talk about the D/s side of things. So do beleive may have met my Dom, and feel my honesty and his is what is making us connect. Hope this wasn't wondering of the subject, but do feel honesty it the best policy. The time for flirting and such is after the initial contact IMO and not in personal ads and the first couple of contacts.

(in reply to CTclay)
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RE: transparency, honesty and d/s flirting. - 1/23/2005 10:53:01 AM   
topcat


Posts: 1675
Joined: 1/31/2004
From: Tidewater, VA
Status: offline
quote:

Knowing how to feign just the right degree of disinterest, for example, is a key skill in the hunt.

Now, on the surface, you'd think that in d/s, with the increased need for honesty and transparency, that this wouldn't be the case. But it is.


M. Vyper-

I was waiting for someone else to state, what, to me, seemed obvious. Perhaps it wasn't.

I do understand the challenge and uncertainy that makes a certian disinterest attractive to a prospect, and it's power in an interaction.

Why must it be a falsehood? Consider:

One might think, that as a dominat male, one might be aware of what one is seeking, what one may be willing to bend on, and what one is bringing to the table.

While 'perfect fits' may occur (in my case, it seems to occur 222 miles to the north), they are rare- and so, wouldn't a self aware person be at least a bit... ?ambivilent? disinterested?

Being totally honset about this, including your attraction, is often as effective as any 'feigned disinterest'.

As a side bar, if one were seeking a submissive woman, one wants to present with a certain degree of power, and a certain aloofness. What could be more powerful that simply and honestly stating your interest, your reservations, and leaving it there on the table for her to make the next move, while you continue to consider other options?

Stay warm,
Lawrence



_____________________________

-there is no remission without blood-

(in reply to VyperX)
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RE: transparency, honesty and d/s flirting. - 1/23/2005 12:19:09 PM   
proudsub


Posts: 6142
Joined: 1/31/2004
From: Washington
Status: offline
quote:

and is paying my way to meet with him


I hope it works out for you cheryl, please keep us informed. Before you go you might want to read the following thread:

first meeting guidelines

_____________________________

proudsub

"Without goals you become what you were. With goals you become what you wish." .

"You are entitled to your own opinions but not your own facts"--Alan Greenspan


(in reply to subcheryl)
Profile   Post #: 20
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