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RE: Do Dom's force a sub to lie at the start - 10/9/2006 8:04:51 AM

RiotGirl

Posts: 3149
Status: offline

not like it hasnt been said yet.. but it hasnt been said with my flare..

the answer is "oh hell no" and if you really want to get cute.. "yeaaaaaaaaahhhh , sure"

i honestly have NEVER had a Dom ask me that. Prolly wise. Always obey? Ha! Thats impossible. No one is always perfect

(in reply to Auralius)

Post #: 21

RE: Do Dom's force a sub to lie at the start - 10/9/2006 8:23:25 AM

LaTigresse

Posts: 26123
Joined: 1/15/2006
Status: offline

All I can say is THANK GAWD I am not a submissive woman looking for a dominant man. With winners like that to weed thru I would end up going postal. Then I would get caught and end up in prison. And THEN, well.......have you SEEN some of the female prisoners they show on TV?!?!?!? No thank you........

_____________________________

My twisted, self deprecating, sense of humour, finds alot to laugh about, in your lack of one!

Just because you are well educated, articulate, and can use big, fancy words, properly........does not mean you are right!

(in reply to patina)

Post #: 22

RE: Do Dom's force a sub to lie at the start - 10/9/2006 9:48:05 AM

darkinshadows

Posts: 4145
Joined: 6/2/2004
From: UK
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: patina

It is so hard to put all the conversation in one paragraph without writing a book but my actual reply was "I will always try to comply to your orders my Lord". He was not satisfied with that. He wanted an outright Yes. I said I feel that until we know each other better I am unable to guarantee any 100% compliance. That is when he lost it. I have gotten tired of these fakers trying to take advantage of me and when I refuse to do as they demand on web cam as they are the Master and I am a sub/slave and so should do as I am told and masterbate for them, I then lose my temper and tell them they are the wannabe's back. If they treat me with respect then I treat them with respect. I am as I am and I give as I get. Only for my true Master will I obey and then this tigress will be a kitten.
Only then will my claws be sheathed.

Patina

I am sorry if I took offense wrong, but I am getting a little tired of being told how wrong the subs are when we are new to this and some Doms are taking advantage of our newness. Kindly give us a break.

Again - why apologise if you took offense to my post - are you really sorry - or trying to spare my feelings?

This has nothing to do with being new to BDSM or not - it is about being honest. And if you cannot be honest and say - hey - you know what .dark., your post sucked IMO, - without feeling responsible for my feelings then work on the why - because it comes down to the same thing as your post is striving to understand.

Nobody should be extra 'nice' to someone who is new. No one needs to give you a break. You are responsible for yourself - not me or the dominant - but you. You come first because if you don't and you don't understand yourself and stand up for yourself, how can you possibly expect to give over to another or expect anyone to accept that your submission is totally pure in intention and not 'just because...'? You give because you give - not because of whats expected or because of others feelings.

So you weren't compatable with a particular man. Doesn't make you less submissive, but equally, doesnt make him any less dominant and a fake. Its just being incompatable. So he gets his kicks off in a way your not open to submit to - just politely decline and move on.

quote:

"I will always try to comply to your orders my Lord".

Did you call him your Lord, even before you were collared? Does he belong to you? What was the protocol of your relationship? There are too many facets for anyone to comment - other than the question that stands out -

Do Dom's force a sub to lie at the start?

They can try - but it's your responsibility whether you allow it or not. Why should you be given a break when its all about selfunderstanding and your personal responsibility?

Peace and Rapture

_____________________________

.dark.

...i surrender to gravity and the unknown...

(in reply to patina)

Post #: 23

RE: Do Dom's force a sub to lie at the start - 10/9/2006 10:07:45 AM

Dnomyar

Posts: 7933
Joined: 6/27/2005
Status: offline

You said that you hung up the phone. Why did you give your phone numbert out so fast?

(in reply to darkinshadows)

Post #: 24

RE: Do Dom's force a sub to lie at the start - 10/9/2006 10:15:49 AM

Lordandmaster

Posts: 10943
Joined: 6/22/2004
Status: offline

I think this is the key to all your problems.

quote:

ORIGINAL: patina

then I either hung up the phone or closed down the chat room.

(in reply to patina)

Post #: 25

RE: Do Dom's force a sub to lie at the start - 10/9/2006 10:20:02 AM

Aine

Posts: 820
Joined: 4/12/2005
Status: offline

Ok...I think the distinction might be this:

You might feel - pressured - to lie and say yes.

Which is wrong on the part of the Dominant to even insinuate that kind of an answer and to not accept anything other than a full out yes.

But that's a sure sign that they are definitely not for you. As many others have said. I don't want to get harsh and mean in my answer, but I'm not going to coddle this into an ooey-gooey answer either.

Your clarification of what you had said to him was the right answer. His reaction was unacceptable.

Perhaps your outlook on this should be supportive of other subs that are unsure of themselves, as most to all are at one point or another. But so are the Dominants when they first start out. Some of them just don't know any better. Which yes, can get VERY annoying. But instead of getting combative with these people (even though they've completely ignored the fact that I'm unavailable) I try to talk them down and perhaps try to talk some sense into them.

The subs nead to learn to speak up for themselves to those pushy Dominants. And the pushy Dominants need to be taken down a peg or two. And generally, if enough subs stand up for themselves, in an adult manner rather than calling them names, perhaps more of them will wise up.

And I personally think that the more properly outspoken and honest a sub is, the more I respect them.

_____________________________

Honey, you obviously missed the "want to be used as a toilet fetish" thread or "where do I get instructions on setting my sub on fire" thread. LOL

Thank you, DelRay for that one.

(in reply to Dnomyar)

Post #: 26

RE: Do Dom's force a sub to lie at the start - 10/9/2006 10:44:30 AM

MasterKalif

Posts: 648
Joined: 5/24/2004
Status: offline

Interesting topic.....did those "doms" act inapropiately for demanding that you will do as they say right away in one of the first conversations? yes. However, here you as a sub have the right to say "no", and explain why in a reasonable way as to why that is. In my view no one "has to" lie for anything, that is entirely up to you, and therefore you cannot blame Doms for that when it lies within your realm of action. As for being given a "break" here no one does really, the Doms, new or old don't get a "break" either, so why should you? The world is harsh, and that is the way it is, we like it or not. Rather than speak out, or speak back, in the initial stage of contact you need to state clearly what you seek (stable long term relationship?) and what the framework is like of the relationship you seek, and then from there build trust, and then go into the details of little things you like/dislike....you could even put this on your profile to avoid these wannabe's who contact you.

(in reply to Aine)

Post #: 27

RE: Do Dom's force a sub to lie at the start - 10/9/2006 10:48:23 AM

SlaveAkasha

Posts: 726
Joined: 9/30/2006
From: Indiana
Status: offline

Sorry, I didn't read through all responses, forgive me if I repeat someone.

I think you answered your own question. If someone asks you that, say "there is no way I can know that since I don't serve you ..if my MASTER asks me to do something, I will obey, but you ARE NOT my Master, so therefore there is no way I can answer your question."

I can't see why it's an issue, who really cares what some immature dom (not by age, by intelligence) thinks of you. I had a million call me a wannabe.. but I think anyone can ask my Master about that and he will tell them without a doubt, there is nothing "wannabe" about HIS slave.

~Akasha

_____________________________

Look, if you want to torture me, spank me, lick me, do it. But if this poetry shit continues just shoot me now please.
~ Tank Girl

www.peta.org
www.goveg.com

(in reply to patina)

Post #: 28

RE: Do Dom's force a sub to lie at the start - 10/9/2006 11:12:07 AM

Kirei

Posts: 146
Joined: 1/1/2004
Status: offline

Ok I just caught this post and went back to read the beginning of it.
My thoughts on the first part are this. If you keep finding those kinds of dominants patina your in for trouble. My suggestion to you is to come up with questions of your own for any potential dominant. That way if they do not answer the questions "NEXT" and move on. I do the same to potentials for me, but I have found out that few people actually what kinds of questions to ask. Its really simple, you ask questions that pertain to your needs, wants, and desires. Ask the hard questions...place the hard senarios before them...if they cannot handle those, then how are they going to handle it when it may happen in real life when your with them?
Believe me when you write out question that mean something to you, you will start to know the exact kind of dominant you need.

Koneko

(in reply to Auralius)

Post #: 29

RE: Do Dom's force a sub to lie at the start - 10/9/2006 11:23:51 AM

BalletBob

Posts: 1645
Joined: 7/14/2005
Status: offline

I feel as though the Dom should of waited to ask you that, til they at least got to know you better. To know what your hard limits are and such. When I met MADAM, she never gave me that "Do what I tell you", which was great. We got to know each other and she knew what not to do and such, and I ASKED for things I wanted to try.

We built up a trust, where I trusted her enough, to be Wrapped in Plastic, and used a Breathing Tube. I am not sure if I could ever trust anyone that much, but hope to find someone someday, that we would feel comfy with.

BalletBob

_____________________________

"I get my kicks above the Waistline, Sunshine"

(in reply to patina)

Post #: 30

RE: Do Dom's force a sub to lie at the start - 10/9/2006 11:28:27 AM

Mavis

Posts: 828
Joined: 2/8/2004
Status: offline

First off, any Dominant worth His or Her salt doesn't use laundry list conversation, the questions are open-ended, allowing for true dialogue, not just yes or no answers.

The other point is it's very simple to talk in terms of "what i hope to do when i am (owned/collared/under the authority of ) vs where W/we are in O/our conversations.

"Would you send me erotic pictures?"
"I sure hope to be able to do that for my Dominant if that becomes part of O/our relationship" allows you to define willingness to do so under the right circumstances, while not pegging THIS as the right circumstance.

Calling a Dom in tawkin phase Master or Lord is kind of like introducing your first date as Hubby. it's quite the leap, isn't it?

(in reply to Kirei)

Post #: 31

RE: Do Dom's force a sub to lie at the start - 10/9/2006 11:41:14 AM

CreativeDominant

Posts: 11032
Joined: 3/11/2006
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: LaTigresse

All I can say is THANK GAWD I am not a submissive woman looking for a dominant man. With winners like that to weed thru I would end up going postal. Then I would get caught and end up in prison. And THEN, well.......have you SEEN some of the female prisoners they show on TV?!?!?!? No thank you........

~grins~...just think of the class and higher standard of looks you would bring then, Tigresse.

(in reply to LaTigresse)

Post #: 32

RE: Do Dom's force a sub to lie at the start - 10/9/2006 12:01:57 PM

HunterLA

Posts: 8
Joined: 7/24/2004
Status: offline

Hmmm..I don't usually participate in the message board, but the title of this one caught me. I will say that I haven't read the whole thread, only skimmed it, so my response may say more about me than the specific situation, but I think my comments apply generally.

First off, no one forces anyone to lie, or to do anything else for that matter. I know, we all enjoy the fiction of consentual power exchange, but when the rubber meets the road, one cannot remove anothers power of choice. Regardless of circumstance, if one lies, it is because they choose to lie. They choose dishonesty rather than honesty, avoidance over clarity. Now, there are cases where it is right to lie (like when the nazis are asking if you have any jews hidden under your stairs), but day to day, its usually a case of not being willing to deal in the truth because its easier to avoid it. Power Exchange is based on trust and trust is based on honesty. If you're lying in your e-mail, I don't hold much hope for any kind of relationship, D/s or not.

If someone asks a question and the answer is no. Say no, as kindly as possible, but clearly. If they can't deal with that, that's their issue. If they do react badly, the real question is, why engage with people who are immature, petulant, and use "dominance" as a synonym for omnipotence they don't really have any claim to. On the flip side, why would anyone deal with anyone who lied to them. I wouldn't. Its not worth it and points to a bigger issue. Honestly, I find that many in the D/s community (DOM and sub) have really bad boundaries and unclear thinking about responsibility and things of that ilk. It sometimes makes it tough to find a good partner..but that's another topic.

Second, it amazes me how many people who purport to be experienced D/s and BDSM participants have absolutely no clue about the fundamentals of the dynamic.
As a Dominant who has been doing this a long time, who has studied and practiced it, I can say unoquivically that CONTROL IS AN ILLUSION. (If you disagree on this point, thats nice, keep it to yourself, I'm not interested in debating it. In the end, I'm correct and denying the truth doesn't change the truth.)

I do not control a submissive, I seduce consent. That is the art and the science of it, the alchemy, and the passion. She has a choice, I seduce her into giving it to me. With a submissive, it is a series of seductions, because she sets the boundaries, she calls the safeword. How far can I take her? How deeply are we connected? How masterful am I? For a slave, I seduce one choice...to obey. But she still makes that choice and, frankly, can take it back if I fuck it up.

Anyone who thinks the title of Dominant (self proclaimed no less), measn they have some automatic influence or right or entitlement to obedience is a fool and likely a bully. Anyone who beleives them isn't far behind. Let the buyer beware...especially online. No is always an acceptable answer, even from a submissive.

That's my two cents.

(in reply to Mavis)

Post #: 33

RE: Do Dom's force a sub to lie at the start - 10/9/2006 12:09:54 PM

Mavis

Posts: 828
Joined: 2/8/2004
Status: offline

Hunter, i think Your two cents was worth at least four. Bravo!

(in reply to HunterLA)

Post #: 34

RE: Do Dom's force a sub to lie at the start - 10/9/2006 12:13:31 PM

raiken

Posts: 868
Joined: 10/18/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: HunterLA

I do not control a submissive, I seduce consent. That is the art and the science of it, the alchemy, and the passion. She has a choice, I seduce her into giving it to me. With a submissive, it is a series of seductions, because she sets the boundaries, she calls the safeword. How far can I take her? How deeply are we connected? How masterful am I? For a slave, I seduce one choice...to obey. But she still makes that choice and, frankly, can take it back if I fuck it up.

Anyone who thinks the title of Dominant (self proclaimed no less), measn they have some automatic influence or right or entitlement to obedience is a fool and likely a bully. Anyone who beleives them isn't far behind. Let the buyer beware...especially online. No is always an acceptable answer, even from a submissive.

That's my two cents.

Ah...This was well stated...

(in reply to HunterLA)

Post #: 35

RE: Do Dom's force a sub to lie at the start - 10/9/2006 12:13:52 PM

darkinshadows

Posts: 4145
Joined: 6/2/2004
From: UK
Status: offline

quote:

As a Dominant who has been doing this a long time, who has studied and practiced it, I can say unoquivically that CONTROL IS AN ILLUSION. (If you disagree on this point, thats nice, keep it to yourself, I'm not interested in debating it. In the end, I'm correct and denying the truth doesn't change the truth.)

Example: Now see - that is how it is done. Point made - no hesitation - one knows where one stands.

Peace and Rapture

_____________________________

.dark.

...i surrender to gravity and the unknown...

(in reply to HunterLA)

Post #: 36

RE: Do Dom's force a sub to lie at the start - 10/9/2006 12:15:05 PM

juliaoceania

Posts: 21383
Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
Status: offline

I know I felt like my former dominant was putting me in a position to lie to him. He ordered me to quit drinking coffee cold turkey. I would hedge about this, and it became this back and forth thing to where when he ordered me to quit I just said "No, I am not going to quit, I never agreed to this." We split up partially over this impasse, and yes, drinking coffee was worth losing him over

, and that was my choice to make, but I was not going to lie to him about it, that's for sure.

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

(in reply to patina)

Post #: 37

RE: Do Dom's force a sub to lie at the start - 10/9/2006 12:42:53 PM

Amaros

Posts: 1363
Joined: 7/25/2005
Status: offline

When I ask a question, I expect an honest answer, whether I like it or not - the purpose of asking questins is primarily, to acertain your expectiations - there is another motivation underlying, which is to establish dominence from the get go, i.e., it isn't a question at all, it's an order, and the Dom is letting you know what his expectations are, he really doesn't care what yours might be - if you're squicked by that, then you are, and you should not commit.

I think the problems inherent in this approach are well documented in this thread, a guy who takes this approach is looking for a pushover, and being submissive isn't quite the same thing - even being aggressively objectified doesn't make you an object, you are always going to be yourself, a unique human being.

Thus taking this approach could mean a no-nonsense, uncompromising individual, or it could indicate a self absorbed clodpole - if he cuts off communication becase he didn't get the answer he wanted, it's probobly to your benefit, unless you enjoy the idea of being treated as an interchangable cog in his fantasy machine.

I've never asked that particular question, if you're calling yourself a submissive, I presume that you'll probobly be incined to submit to reasonable demands, the question therby becomes: what do you consider reasonable?

I have asked a prospective about her views on "total submission" what ever that might mean to her, mainly in order to determine the level of commitment she might be capable of, and almost every time, she answered that she wasn't sure, with the right person, under certain conditions, etc., and that is really the answer I was looking for - it indicates to me a certain willingness to explore, but that she is honest and secure enough not to just tell me what I want to hear, or what she thinks I want to hear.

i.e., it's basically a trick question, if she rushes to say yes, she either has no idea what she's talking about, or I'm being played - otherwise, I expect you catch the next available flight.

Need an evil grin on this thing...

I seldom hear a prospective ask me what I want, or specifically what she needs from me, which gives me something else to work with, perhaps out of fear of being perceived as topping from the bottom or whatever - you might try some reverse psychology next time you get one of these guys, if he's gonna flake anyway you might as well have some fun.

I'm just trying to absorb as much information about you, good, bad, or indifferent, through this frustratingly inadequate interface. I really cannot make any judgements about you, much less how "good" a sub you're going to be, or whatever, until we've known each other for a while, and I have a little better idea of what makes you tick as an individual. I usually only talk about sex and submission when the subject comes up in the course of the conversation, when I might try to get into your head a little on the subject, basically just looking for clues to specific desires and expectations I might have to consider - otherwise, I figure that part of it can pretty much take care of itself when we get together, no?

In short, if you want me to come on stronger, I can do that, but unless you ask, you're pretty much talking to the social agent rather than my evil twin - it's not a mask, it's the real me, the other one is the one that runs the risk of sounding like a cliché - he is my creature, released for your gratification and mine - I am not his.

< Message edited by Amaros -- 10/9/2006 12:53:45 PM >

(in reply to HunterLA)

Post #: 38

RE: Do Dom's force a sub to lie at the start - 10/9/2006 1:05:44 PM

Tikkiee

Posts: 1099
Joined: 4/6/2006
Status: offline

Sorry, but I happen to agree with Dark on this one. No one forces YOU to lie at all. It's a choice that you make on your own to spare the feelings of another. I, personally, am brutally honest when I talk to others about things like limits and such. Mainly because I do NOT want to have to be repeating myself down the line if the issue EVER comes up. It's called responsibility and being accountable for one's actions.

_____________________________

~~@ cass @~~

(in reply to patina)

Post #: 39

RE: Do Dom's force a sub to lie at the start - 10/9/2006 1:12:42 PM

SweetEscravo

Posts: 193
Joined: 12/17/2005
Status: offline

I really don't think that asking a sub to obey your every whim when you first meet them is very fair. How can someone agree to something without knowing what it is they're agreeing to? Yes, as submissives we want to please our doms, but it is never smart to do so blindly. However, once limits and boundaries have been set, this question might be asked.

(in reply to Tikkiee)

Post #: 40

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