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RE: Do Dom's force a sub to lie at the start - 10/9/2006 6:53:22 PM

diamonddreamlove

Posts: 770
Joined: 5/19/2006
Status: offline

I don't think I could ever truthfully say yes to that question. There are always some things that we can not do. I was married for 10 years and did not promise to obey although most of the time 99.99% of the time i did obey. It was just that last little bit that would make me a liar for sure. So maybe the Dom should be asked do/can You promise never to ask me to do something i can not do? If He says yes then i am clearing out then too cause i only submit to humans not Gods.

_____________________________

"Many attempts to communicate are nullified by saying too much." Robert Greenleaf

(in reply to Auralius)

Post #: 61

RE: Do Dom's force a sub to lie at the start - 10/9/2006 6:59:00 PM

ExSteelAgain

Posts: 1803
Joined: 7/2/2006
From: Georgia
Status: offline

To the OP, you say you are a newbie so maybe you should have explained to the people you were talking with why you felt their method was wrong. What’s the big deal? You discuss views and get to know each other. You could learn with them. Easy.

Many submissive women would love to have a “wannabe” Dom to talk with and learn with them. It is not going to be any easier for you to meet Dom men than it was to meet vanilla men. This is your misconception.

_____________________________

You can paint a cinder block bright pastel pink, but it's still a cinder block. (By Me.)

(in reply to patina)

Post #: 62

RE: Do Dom's force a sub to lie at the start - 10/9/2006 7:25:01 PM

elfmaiden1

Posts: 1
Joined: 10/3/2006
Status: offline

Part of the answer depends on where you are on the sub/slave continuum. My partner/dominant would never ask me that question, because he knows I'd kick him where it hurts. Which brings me to what I think is the most troubling side of the question that you raise. D/s is not really about giving orders and carrying them out. If he does not know what your answer will be, before asking, then he has no right to ask and you should bid him adios. If you do not know your answer, then be true to yourself and bid him adios or bide for awhile.

_____________________________

Examine your life, lest it slip away unnoticed.

(in reply to patina)

Post #: 63

RE: Do Dom's force a sub to lie at the start - 10/9/2006 7:28:36 PM

MzTlaz

Posts: 140
Joined: 8/8/2006
Status: offline

Me too!!

quote:

ORIGINAL: KnightofMists

quote:

ORIGINAL: HunterLA

Hmmm..I don't usually participate in the message board, but the title of this one caught me. I will say that I haven't read the whole thread, only skimmed it, so my response may say more about me than the specific situation, but I think my comments apply generally.

First off, no one forces anyone to lie, or to do anything else for that matter. I know, we all enjoy the fiction of consentual power exchange, but when the rubber meets the road, one cannot remove anothers power of choice. Regardless of circumstance, if one lies, it is because they choose to lie. They choose dishonesty rather than honesty, avoidance over clarity. Now, there are cases where it is right to lie (like when the nazis are asking if you have any jews hidden under your stairs), but day to day, its usually a case of not being willing to deal in the truth because its easier to avoid it. Power Exchange is based on trust and trust is based on honesty. If you're lying in your e-mail, I don't hold much hope for any kind of relationship, D/s or not.

If someone asks a question and the answer is no. Say no, as kindly as possible, but clearly. If they can't deal with that, that's their issue. If they do react badly, the real question is, why engage with people who are immature, petulant, and use "dominance" as a synonym for omnipotence they don't really have any claim to. On the flip side, why would anyone deal with anyone who lied to them. I wouldn't. Its not worth it and points to a bigger issue. Honestly, I find that many in the D/s community (DOM and sub) have really bad boundaries and unclear thinking about responsibility and things of that ilk. It sometimes makes it tough to find a good partner..but that's another topic.

Second, it amazes me how many people who purport to be experienced D/s and BDSM participants have absolutely no clue about the fundamentals of the dynamic.
As a Dominant who has been doing this a long time, who has studied and practiced it, I can say unoquivically that CONTROL IS AN ILLUSION. (If you disagree on this point, thats nice, keep it to yourself, I'm not interested in debating it. In the end, I'm correct and denying the truth doesn't change the truth.)

I do not control a submissive, I seduce consent. That is the art and the science of it, the alchemy, and the passion. She has a choice, I seduce her into giving it to me. With a submissive, it is a series of seductions, because she sets the boundaries, she calls the safeword. How far can I take her? How deeply are we connected? How masterful am I? For a slave, I seduce one choice...to obey. But she still makes that choice and, frankly, can take it back if I fuck it up.

Anyone who thinks the title of Dominant (self proclaimed no less), measn they have some automatic influence or right or entitlement to obedience is a fool and likely a bully. Anyone who beleives them isn't far behind. Let the buyer beware...especially online. No is always an acceptable answer, even from a submissive.

That's my two cents.

mmmmmmmm you know... I think I am going to like this guy.... hope he posts more

(in reply to KnightofMists)

Post #: 64

RE: Do Dom's force a sub to lie at the start - 10/9/2006 9:16:30 PM

Kalira

Posts: 954
Joined: 10/9/2006
From: Fort Wayne Indiana
Status: offline

I don't believe that we are forced to lie. If you choose to say 'yes', then you need to take personal responsibility for your choices and not place the blame at the feet of another.

Just my opinion though.

_____________________________

Facilius Per Partes In Cognitionem Totius Adducimur
We are more easily led part by part to an understanding of the whole.
Seneca

Damnant Quod Non Intellegunt

(in reply to patina)

Post #: 65

RE: Do Dom's force a sub to lie at the start - 10/10/2006 2:47:52 AM

becca333

Posts: 1050
Joined: 4/11/2006
Status: offline

I think the problem is that you're not actually talking to Doms. You're talking to horny guys who think, "She's got a webcam and she's going to do whatever I tell her - and I don't even have to pay this one!"

Wherever you're fishing, it's the wrong pond. Find a safer way to search - go to some munches, get to know the scene, whatever. But change your tactics. Good luck with it.

(in reply to Kalira)

Post #: 66

RE: Do Dom's force a sub to lie at the start - 10/10/2006 3:44:48 AM

LordODiscipline

Posts: 995
Joined: 6/28/2004
Status: offline

No one forces anyone to lie to them - this is something people do out of convention and from a cultural standpoint - but, they are responsible for stating the lie no matter.

~J

_____________________________

"Anyone who thinks they're important is usually just a pompous moron who can't deal with his or her own pathetic insignificance and the fact that what they do is meaningless and inconsequential."
William Thomas

(in reply to patina)

Post #: 67

RE: Do Dom's force a sub to lie at the start - 10/10/2006 3:55:50 AM

Faldegast

Posts: 21
Joined: 3/31/2004
Status: offline

quote:

thought

quote:

ORIGINAL: Tikkiee

quote:

ORIGINAL: Faldegast

This is a discussion about bdsm-related ethics. The only rule when it comes to ethics is that people will never agree to what good ethics are. Ethics is something that humans make up and will always reflect the perspective of the one that makes it up. There are virtually as mani variants of ethics as there are people. People is different and that makes ethics different. The problem we se here is that most people expect THEIR ethics to be something that is true for everyone else. It is not. It may be similar to some others but directly offensive to others. Some, including some subs, think that subs have no right to question their master at all. Others do not think that. Of course that is a good ground for conflict. Each group think that they are on the moral high grounds and therefore talk of the others using expressions like wannabes, horney net geeks etc. The truth is that there are (at least) two incompatible groups and no ammount of experience, training etc are gonna change that.

And rememger: confidence is the feeling you have before you fully understands the situation.

/reads this once, scratches her head in confusion; reads it a second time, shakes her head to clear any cobwebs, and reads it a third time.

Ummm

WHAT?

Except for the obvious bad spelling the meaning of that post is: There is no "right" or "wrong" in the way people behave. People are different, get used to it.

(in reply to Tikkiee)

Post #: 68

RE: Do Dom's force a sub to lie at the start - 10/10/2006 5:25:49 AM

Celeste43

Posts: 3066
Joined: 2/4/2006
From: NYS
Status: offline

The response to that sort of question ought to be, "excuse me, but I don't remember agreeing to submit to you. Now if you would like to converse like an ordinary person and earn my trust and respect, we can try this again."

(in reply to Auralius)

Post #: 69

RE: Do Dom's force a sub to lie at the start - 10/10/2006 2:03:09 PM

teamnoir

Posts: 226
Joined: 4/5/2005
From: San Francisco Bay Area California
Status: offline

I think you're completely right. That sort of question early on is pretty silly.

What's happening is a gambit, a sort of implicit negotiation. He's asking you to trust him and to agree to something sight unseen and undescribed. While there's much romance in that idea, it's just not particularly practical. IMO, the right answer would be, "depends on what you ask me to do."

Better, imo, to simply give some directions and see if you follow them. I mean, presuming you'd agreed to play at all.

(in reply to patina)

Post #: 70

RE: Do Dom's force a sub to lie at the start - 10/10/2006 6:09:02 PM

bandbinohio

Posts: 8
Joined: 8/18/2004
Status: offline

I believe that trust especially in any sort of BDSM relationship must first be earned. After that comes respect. Once someone has earned a sub's respect then they can ask a question about obedience. Although it is never gonna happen where someone MUST obey everything a Dom says. True slavery does not exist. There is no such thing in this country. People are not property no matter what they agree to and they will always have the ability legally to make their own decisions.
An example of my beief is a frequent conversation taht I end up having with new prospective subs. They ask if they should call me Sir or Master and I tell them that for now just call me Bob. Once we enter into a formal relationship we can determine which honorific will be used to address me. I also feel the same way about my sub/wife. Just because someone is a Master to another sub does not mean that she has to address them by Sir or Master when they first meet. I leave it up to her to determine whether they have eraned her respect or not. I do require her to be polite and avoid rudeness but she is not required to adress them by any specific name if they have not earned it from her.

This is just my 2 cents and I hope I have managed to get my opinions across clearly

Bob

(in reply to teamnoir)

Post #: 71

RE: Do Dom's force a sub to lie at the start - 10/10/2006 9:23:30 PM

StrictTrainher

Posts: 1
Joined: 10/9/2006
Status: offline

I recently joined here but have experience, then again the more O/one learns in this lifestyle, O/one knows there is so much more to learn.

In My opinion you have been in contact with a Person who is just interested in a quick online fuck. A true Master realises it takes time to build that bond and every relationship, like a D/s, is based on mutual trust and respect. Ofcourse you and Him can take time to chat and get to know E/eachother in order for B/both to find out if there is a possibility for more. Until the moment you know enough to take the decision to submit to Him or not and might consider a collar of consideration even. But that takes time and any Dom that pushes you and tries to force you or manipulate you is to be avoided. Sure, He can be eager to be with you etc. but what kind of a Dom is He if He can't control Himself in the first place?

STH

(in reply to OhReallyNow)

Post #: 72

RE: Do Dom's force a sub to lie at the start - 10/10/2006 10:29:11 PM

patina

Posts: 493
Joined: 9/14/2006
From: no
Status: offline

In reply to the why use " my Lord" he wanted me to call him Master I said I am not ready yet to call you Master. I will substitute my Lord, now maybe this is not correct either but again as a newbie I was not sure how to handle that situation. I will answer a few other queries I have seen in reading through the comments.

This was not a first time conversation there had been several emails and chats before we talked on the phone. I do not give out my home phone I have a cell phone for this purpose. It protects my privacy but gives me easy access if needed. Most of my information has come from either the internet or here on the forum, and a book called I believe Screw the Roses Send me the Thorns.

I have been learning more and more that most of what I know is wrong.   I keep reading these forum but at times you get conflicting information. As in one thread about rules I saw where some Dom's were saying I have
                                      1 rule You will always obey the Master.

others put in I have 2 rules rule 1. is You will always obey me.
                        rule 2 is if you have a problem check rule no. 1 .

these are cute, I know you are again going to say yes but those were for Masters with collared slaves not a sub looking for a Dom.

I agree I did a lot of dumb things but at least I didn't fall completely for their bull. I did say no in the end and disconnected the communication I refused to lower my principles and exhibit for them on camera. I do not know what I am willing to give in the end to a Dom or how much of myself. I may not be able too I am strong willed and independent but at same time I know it gives me great pleasure to please the one I love, honor, cherish and respect. But I am very picky in who that man will be. Hence I am still looking and will until I meet what I want. I am worth it. If this is arrogance then so be it.

and to Dark____ my apology was more to others than to you I should of made that clear. I was posting in anger that night. Not because of what was being said to me pfffttt. It had been a trying few days, and for sub's in general. A Dome had posted earlier on another thread that she had been lied to by a sub and everyone was going oh you poor thing. How bad for you. I do agree what the sub did was wrong but is it any worse what a Dom does to sub's when he tells her a bunch of lies and gives her false hopes then throws them back in her face. I am not the only sub to have this happen her either.  I have talked to several in fact 2 of us had the same dom try the same tatics on each of us. Only he keeps changing his name. No!!!! I do not like double standards in anything. If you are going to put the sub down for lying put the dom down for lying too. That is all I ask of you.

I would like to thank all of you for opinions, most I will take to heart, some I will scoff at, others ignore.

Patina

_____________________________

a diamond in the rough

(in reply to KatyLied)

Post #: 73

RE: Do Dom's force a sub to lie at the start - 10/11/2006 4:47:26 AM

darkinshadows

Posts: 4145
Joined: 6/2/2004
From: UK
Status: offline

quote:

and to Dark____ my apology was more to others than to you I should of made that clear. I was posting in anger that night. Not because of what was being said to me pfffttt. It had been a trying few days, and for sub's in general. A Dome had posted earlier on another thread that she had been lied to by a sub and everyone was going oh you poor thing. How bad for you. I do agree what the sub did was wrong but is it any worse what a Dom does to sub's when he tells her a bunch of lies and gives her false hopes then throws them back in her face. I am not the only sub to have this happen her either. I have talked to several in fact 2 of us had the same dom try the same tatics on each of us. Only he keeps changing his name. No!!!! I do not like double standards in anything. If you are going to put the sub down for lying put the dom down for lying too. That is all I ask of you.

I would like to thank all of you for opinions, most I will take to heart, some I will scoff at, others ignore.

Patina

Patina

If people see you as arrogant - fuck them.

Don't buy into the fantasy submissive who has no mind and is all yes Sir. You say your strong willed, independant - and that is because you are a person above anything else. And its not unusual for a s-type to be that way. You say it like it's a bad thing. It isn't.

Lets take away all the labels of submissive, dominant etc and see people - ALL PEOPLE get pissed on from times to time, and not in a good, warm wet way. Being a dominant type doesn't give you extra privillages for sympathy... nor does being a 'helpless s-type'... it does happen and there are people who take advantage of others out there - BDSM isn't immune and it happens all . the. time.

People lie. Dominants, submissive, vicars, PEOPLE - and some will try and coerce others into lying as well, but it is the individuals themself (thats you) to refuse to do so. Thats your personal choice, even as a s-type, even as a person that is owned, even if you are property.

You are not expected to be anything other than yourself. There are people who have expectations, but reality is, if being you doesn't fill those expectations you move on. No fake label, no wannabees on either side of the fence - just an incompatable relationship.

If you want to call someone Lord, and its there wish, then do so. But understand that it is an act of submission to respond in a way to how another wishes. If you are just calling them Lord because they told you to - and your not really comfortable with doing so, but 'its the done thing'... then THAT is the lie and you are lying to that person - you are faking submission... and that as disrespectful as one can get.

Your post is very conflicting. You obviously know who you are, and you are already aware of some of the things you will and wont do, but what I see is that your reading and taking on board everyones expectations and ignoring your own to a certain extent. And that is a lie - again - you are holding back from yourself.

Be honest with yourself first. If it helps - sit and write down all the will dos and wont dos. Then look through the wont does and see if the become 'mayb es' with the right person. Talk things through with yourself. Books, forums, others can only tell you what they would do - but you should do what they would do - do what you desire, what is deep within you - because if your doing things, 'just coz'... or doing things or even contemplating things that your not comfortable doing with someone who you have not given control to - you are only going to become more bitter and just angry with yourself, which in turn, makes others 'to blame'.

Be responsible for yourself and the rest will come... naturally.

Peace and Rapture

_____________________________

.dark.

...i surrender to gravity and the unknown...

(in reply to patina)

Post #: 74

RE: Do Dom's force a sub to lie at the start - 10/11/2006 4:53:44 AM

sweetnurseBBW

Posts: 2464
Joined: 1/26/2006
From: North Carolina
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: patina

1 rule You will always obey the Master.

Patina

But he wasn't your Master. He was just someone you met online who called himself a Dom. Learning to distinguish from the two will help you alot in the long run.

< Message edited by sweetnurseBBW -- 10/11/2006 4:54:19 AM >

_____________________________

Sir Pain's pain slut

(in reply to patina)

Post #: 75

RE: Do Dom's force a sub to lie at the start - 10/11/2006 6:05:48 AM

RickC

Posts: 5
Joined: 10/10/2006
Status: offline

First of all, I believe an experienced Dom would not have to ask that question. Personally I like a sub who can think for them selves and has a little fire. If a Dom is experienced, they can guide and lead their sub to their position with common sense and respect. The ability of the Dom to reward and punish the sub using common sense and respect will bring about a confident sub who will trust their Dom and will obey them and know their position with their master.
A Dom who takes the position of complete and unconditional controll from the beginning, lacks confidence in his abilities to train, lead and guide his/her sub and will usually end in disappointment of the relationship and eventually will end in failure.

(in reply to Auralius)

Post #: 76

RE: Do Dom's force a sub to lie at the start - 10/11/2006 7:20:25 AM

SubHunter69

Posts: 4
Joined: 5/31/2006
Status: offline

I see two seprate issues going on here. One is the truth/lie issue the other the online domfake issue.

I have asked that question once or twice as a test. I do not look for blind obedence becuase I am not a master. I look for complete honesty. You need to be true to yourself.
If I wanted you to cross a hard limit would you obey me? If you are willing to do anything I ask, then what if I ask you to go into a 7-11 naked? Or to go rob a bank?

The other thing is this online fantasy world. The internet is a wonderfull tool. It is also a great place for those who cant or dont want to operate in the real world to hide in. Anyone on the net can say "I am a Master you must obey" They arent even wannabes yet :)

To qoute a close friend and mentor...."If a sub at your feet willing to give everything is not the most humbling experence ever you dont need to be a dom"

(in reply to Auralius)

Post #: 77

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