RE: Do Dom's force a sub to lie at the start (Full Version)

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sweetnurseBBW -> RE: Do Dom's force a sub to lie at the start (10/9/2006 1:17:48 PM)

I think first getting to know someone before you start placing demands on them is a good thing. All it comes down to is stand up for yourself. Don't let pushy wannabe dorks pressure you. You are responsible for your own actions and words.



Faldegast -> RE: Do Dom's force a sub to lie at the start (10/9/2006 1:21:52 PM)

This is a discussion about bdsm-related ethics. The only rule when it comes to ethics is that people will never agree to what good ethics are. Ethics is something that humans make up and will always reflect the perspective of the one that makes it up. There are virtually as mani variants of ethics as there are people. People is different and that makes ethics different. The problem we se here is that most people expect THEIR ethics to be something that is true for everyone else. It is not. It may be similar to some others but directly offensive to others. Some, including some subs, think that subs have no right to question their master at all. Others do not think that. Of course that is a good ground for conflict. Each group think that they are on the moral high grounds and therefore talk of the others using expressions like wannabes, horney net geeks etc. The truth is that there are (at least) two incompatible groups and no ammount of experience, training etc are gonna change that.

And rememger: confidence is the feeling you have before you fully understands the situation.



KatyLied -> RE: Do Dom's force a sub to lie at the start (10/9/2006 1:57:20 PM)

quote:

quote:

"I will always try to comply to your orders my Lord". 

Did you call him your Lord, even before you were collared?  Does he belong to you?  What was the protocol of your relationship? 


I am also confused.  I thought this was a chat/telephone/email thing, not a real time relationship.  Or did he ask you to call him "Lord" as some sort of act of submission?



justheather -> RE: Do Dom's force a sub to lie at the start (10/9/2006 2:07:48 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: KatyLied

quote:

quote:

"I will always try to comply to your orders my Lord". 

Did you call him your Lord, even before you were collared?  Does he belong to you?  What was the protocol of your relationship? 


I am also confused.  I thought this was a chat/telephone/email thing, not a real time relationship.  Or did he ask you to call him "Lord" as some sort of act of submission?



Come on, guys, let's not pretend we don't know that people hook up in chat and after the first five minutes start to throw cyber collars onto subs necks like some kind of ring-toss game at the county fair.

So, unless you're into that...bottom line, you turn and walk away as soon as any of the following occurs:

1. He types anything remotely resembling a command in all caps during your first chat.
2. He starts in with the Renn speak at any point.
3. He gets all whiney and passive-aggressive when you don't stop talking to anyone else with a y chromasome after the first chat.
4. He mentions the current and/or desired disposition of your pubic hair before you know his real name.

Simple, no?





solia -> RE: Do Dom's force a sub to lie at the start (10/9/2006 2:09:35 PM)

do doms force subs to lie? ... Well, maybe and maybe it is the eagerness of the sub to please the dom. I agree with several points that have been made.  MsIncognito  'The sub, being insecure and needy for BDSM contact,  chooses to lie in order to potentially have their needs met.' is a very good point.  Not wanting to lose a potential partner, it does seem to be easy to agree with everything and hope to work it out later. And patina put it marvelously with the stuttered y y y yes! To Kiaban's 'There is very little you can say to a stranger along those lines without lying.' I have to ask .. uh, if a stranger why NOT tell the truth??  And that is where my response lies.  If I'm not in a relationship with someone, what will tellling the truth and answering true to myself harm?? I don't 'have' this guy so what am I really losing anyway? However, I do have myself and must face me everyday. If I'm not true to myself from the very beginning, then the entire relationship will be a farce.  Likewise, if the other person isn't honest from the start .. sheesh .. what's the point of continuing the relationship?  I've got better things to be doing.  'nuff said' 



solia -> RE: Do Dom's force a sub to lie at the start (10/9/2006 2:15:02 PM)

okay .. just reread what I wrote and want to define something a bit more about the part of 'lying to a stranger.'  I believe in telling the truth and am usually successful but stuff like .. where do you live, work, go to school, how many children do you have, are they boys/girls.. don't need a lie to be generated to respond but can be answered with a 'you don't need to know that right now so stop asking' and either the stranger respects you or vanishes.  Works marvelously for weeding out the pervs. 
s(o i lied on my earlier post about 'nuff said' .. and i really mean it this time .. sigh)



solia -> RE: Do Dom's force a sub to lie at the start (10/9/2006 2:20:23 PM)

oh wow!!! great way of narrowing it down!! I've had #1,3 and 4 happen to me too many times to count.  Thank the cyber gods for the little red x in the corner and the letters to type out .. 'ain't you a funny little one speaking all big dom at me' ..  But, what is Renn speak please?



Legman1 -> RE: Do Dom's force a sub to lie at the start (10/9/2006 2:37:11 PM)

Sounds like a poorly posed question from an inexperianced dom thats not interested in reality. Is it a lie to say yes to will you obey me at all times? well err ya, but he's not interested in reality. Just playing a cam game fantasy.



SEVADom -> RE: Do Dom's force a sub to lie at the start (10/9/2006 2:53:31 PM)

My thoughts:

I'm treating this as though it were in meatspace; in cyberspace (to me), it's all fantasy anyway [*ducking*].

1) The question ("You will always do as I say, no matter what. Correct?") is a dumbass question, period. People, even Doms, are fallible (get over it). So implying that all directions (the "always, ... no matter what" part) even can be performed, either safely or not, is asinine. It might be a good check on the sanity of the responder, however, in the event that s/he says "yes" (see below).

2) Many people have given good, non-lying responses in the thread, all the way from hanging up to "riiiight"; but a simple "yes" would be as asinine as is the question -- not only a lie, but an unbelievable one.

Can one force a sub (or anyone) to lie? Maybe under extreme physical duress (beyond 'good') or threat -- but otherwise? Hell no. It's a choice. Deal with it.



julietsierra -> RE: Do Dom's force a sub to lie at the start (10/9/2006 3:05:48 PM)

My answer is - and was - "Absolutely not. For instance, if you wanted to engage in a little amputation play,  I would most assuredly have to say no matter how much I may like you, you're not really worth an arm and a leg ..and if you wanted a little decapitation play...well, that's not something I'm losing my head over. So, no, I'd have to say I can't be counted on to obey ANYTHING you might ask me. However, with time, getting to know each other and my confidence in the choices I've made in you, I might obey most of what you ask of me. Of course, even with that, I reserve the right to call everything off when things reach the point where what I'm doing is no longer healthy for me - and that means physically, mentally, emotionally and financially. Anything more, and it'll have to be a case by case situation."

Generally they were still laughing over the amputation and decapitation play so that when I said the rest of it, they weren't so ready to use the "you're not a real submissive" line.

When I have had that spoken to me, my response was "well, if by real you mean being just plain stupid, I guess you're right. I'm not real. I'm as fake as they come. Then again, since this very fake person is looking for someone with a modicum of intelligence, very obviously, you won't do."

Generally, they're left trying to figure out what "modicum" means. Either that, or they respond with the very intelligent "f-you." And I walk away laughing.

juliet



MASTERRocker -> RE: Do Dom's force a sub to lie at the start (10/9/2006 3:09:47 PM)

Well... I 'usually' don't let them 'lie' until the third meeting - I would rather keep them tied up to pillar posts and suspended on tiptoes..........



SherTenn -> RE: Do Dom's force a sub to lie at the start (10/9/2006 3:18:56 PM)

To my mind, the 'Master' should be thinking in terms of getting the answer to his question.. i.e. I would rather have it phrased somthing like "If things work out and I become your Master.. would you obey my commands without quesdtioning them..?" This assumes the Master is concerned with something like constantly being 'disobeyed' so as to constantly have to apply discipline.



Tikkiee -> RE: Do Dom's force a sub to lie at the start (10/9/2006 3:46:42 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Faldegast

This is a discussion about bdsm-related ethics. The only rule when it comes to ethics is that people will never agree to what good ethics are. Ethics is something that humans make up and will always reflect the perspective of the one that makes it up. There are virtually as mani variants of ethics as there are people. People is different and that makes ethics different. The problem we se here is that most people expect THEIR ethics to be something that is true for everyone else. It is not. It may be similar to some others but directly offensive to others. Some, including some subs, think that subs have no right to question their master at all. Others do not think that. Of course that is a good ground for conflict. Each group think that they are on the moral high grounds and therefore talk of the others using expressions like wannabes, horney net geeks etc. The truth is that there are (at least) two incompatible groups and no ammount of experience, training etc are gonna change that.

And rememger: confidence is the feeling you have before you fully understands the situation.


/reads this once, scratches her head in confusion; reads it a second time, shakes her head to clear any cobwebs, and reads it a third time.
 
Ummm
 
WHAT?



justheather -> RE: Do Dom's force a sub to lie at the start (10/9/2006 3:52:13 PM)

Ren speak is a hard limit for some people I know.

http://members.aol.com/amyfaire/speech.html

If he says "Hark!" "Come hither!" or "Yon", run like the wind.



KatyLied -> RE: Do Dom's force a sub to lie at the start (10/9/2006 4:09:49 PM)

"Hark now, methinks I do hear the sounds of stupidity upon the collarme!"



MASTERRocker -> RE: Do Dom's force a sub to lie at the start (10/9/2006 4:15:03 PM)

Whi is 'Stupidity'?? Is she new,  or an owned slave?? I have not met her yet........



justheather -> RE: Do Dom's force a sub to lie at the start (10/9/2006 4:16:45 PM)

How now, Katy, wherefore dost thou speakest in such a manner that is so very disturbing?
Marry! Dost thou not understand the spiritual nature of such speak?



SirLordTrainer -> RE: Do Dom's force a sub to lie at the start (10/9/2006 4:28:50 PM)

Without honesty, without trust you are left with nothing. As well a good Dominant would never expect you to lie. Lying can also lead to people getting hurt physically and emotionally.



sharainks -> RE: Do Dom's force a sub to lie at the start (10/9/2006 4:42:22 PM)

Oh shoot I knew I was doing something wrong.  My responses to those kind of questions more tend to be "that will depend on the relationship between us"  or the more blatent "at times you will be hearing no on some things".  I don't identify as a slave so blatant lying about the degree of control would soon become quite obvious. 

Whats the point really?  I'm not just seeking "a dom" for however long it might last but someone to build something long term with.  You don't get there starting from a base of lies. You also don't get there demanding things before there is a relationship there that would allow that much control. 



KnightofMists -> RE: Do Dom's force a sub to lie at the start (10/9/2006 5:28:26 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: HunterLA

Hmmm..I don't usually participate in the message board, but the title of this one caught me. I will say that I haven't read the whole thread, only skimmed it, so my response may say more about me than the specific situation, but I think my comments apply generally.

First off, no one forces anyone to lie, or to do anything else for that matter. I know, we all enjoy the fiction of consentual power exchange, but when the rubber meets the road, one cannot remove anothers power of choice. Regardless of circumstance, if one lies, it is because they choose to lie. They choose dishonesty rather than honesty, avoidance over clarity. Now, there are cases where it is right to lie (like when the nazis are asking if you have any jews hidden under your stairs), but day to day, its usually a case of not being willing to deal in the truth because its easier to avoid it. Power Exchange is based on trust and trust is based on honesty. If you're lying in your e-mail, I don't hold much hope for any kind of relationship, D/s or not.

If someone asks a question and the answer is no. Say no, as kindly as possible, but clearly. If they can't deal with that, that's their issue. If they do react badly, the real question is, why engage with people who are immature, petulant, and use "dominance" as a synonym for omnipotence they don't really have any claim to. On the flip side, why would anyone deal with anyone who lied to them. I wouldn't. Its not worth it and points to a bigger issue. Honestly, I find that many in the D/s community (DOM and sub) have really bad boundaries and unclear thinking about responsibility and things of that ilk. It sometimes makes it tough to find a good partner..but that's another topic.

Second, it amazes me how many people who purport to be experienced D/s and BDSM participants have absolutely no clue about the fundamentals of the dynamic.
As a Dominant who has been doing this a long time, who has studied and practiced it, I can say unoquivically that CONTROL IS AN ILLUSION. (If you disagree on this point, thats nice, keep it to yourself, I'm not interested in debating it. In the end, I'm correct and denying the truth doesn't change the truth.)

I do not control a submissive, I seduce consent. That is the art and the science of it, the alchemy, and the passion. She has a choice, I seduce her into giving it to me. With a submissive, it is a series of seductions, because she sets the boundaries, she calls the safeword. How far can I take her? How deeply are we connected? How masterful am I? For a slave, I seduce one choice...to obey. But she still makes that choice and, frankly, can take it back if I fuck it up.

Anyone who thinks the title of Dominant (self proclaimed no less), measn they have some automatic influence or right or entitlement to obedience is a fool and likely a bully. Anyone who beleives them isn't far behind. Let the buyer beware...especially online. No is always an acceptable answer, even from a submissive.

That's my two cents.



mmmmmmmm you know... I think I am going to like this guy.... hope he posts more



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