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Do you ask or tell a submissive ? - 1/21/2005 11:10:51 PM

sydneycouple

Posts: 13
Joined: 11/13/2004
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Being fairly inexperienced in this It would really be appreaciated for some wise words from the Doms here with more knowledge.
I would like to know from the experienced doms here whether you ask a submissive what kind of scene or relationship that they want or do you tell them "this is the way it is and the way it's going to be"
I'm talking here about the begining stage of a relationship,exchanging emails or after no scenes or only a few before you both get to know each other ?
I was going to ask this question of the submissives but thought that they may think that they like to negotiate everything but the reality may be quite different.
So what I am asking is I know that there are going to be variations but as a general rule how much is your command and how much is actual negotiation?

Post #: 1

RE: Do you ask or tell a submissive ? - 1/22/2005 4:49:21 AM

s1nn3r

Posts: 9
Joined: 1/10/2005
Status: offline

I believe a good Master should always be alert and aware of what is going on with the submissive He is Dominating. Its all about body language, right? A person can tell (or should be able to tell) whether or not their partner is uncomfortable with something (whatever the lifestyle may be). Some people believe in safe words, that the Master can go until that safe word is spoken. Personally, I dont believe in them. If a girl is going to give herself completely to Me, then its My responsibility to know that girl inside and out. I think too many Doms are selfish and dont take into consideration the feelings of their girl. Let's remember. True Dominance isnt just Mastering the body. Its Mastering the mind, heart, and soul as well.

-s1n

(in reply to sydneycouple)

Post #: 2

RE: Do you ask or tell a submissive ? - 1/22/2005 6:12:54 AM

topcat

Posts: 1675
Joined: 1/31/2004
From: Tidewater, VA
Status: offline

M.'s Sydney-

The real negotiation is with ones self- you must know clearly what you are seeking, and what you are bringing to the table, and what you are willing to compromise. As a couple, I’d suspect that it is easier for you to arrive at these answers, to check/stay each other and refine your ‘package’.

Too often in the scene I see people who confuse negotiation with some sort of process of global compromise. While there is some compromise involved, the higher order process is simply comparing the fit of the parties’ needs and desires. When the fit is poor, just move on

For me, the process is more a matter of gauging the accuracy of the others stated desires- not that they are being dishonest, necessarily, but rather, they may not be aware of the actuality of their wants and needs. If they aren’t- and you aren’t- it’s a negotiation for a train wreck, not a relationship.

Stay warm,
Lawrence

_____________________________

-there is no remission without blood-

(in reply to sydneycouple)

Post #: 3

RE: Do you ask or tell a submissive ? - 1/22/2005 9:25:56 AM

sydneycouple

Posts: 13
Joined: 11/13/2004
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Well I suppose that negotiation would have to be on ongoing proposition as we all have limits.
I guess the real question is........
If a Dom asks a Sub "well what do you want"
He would lose to some degree respect.
But on the other hand if the Sub isn't getting anything out of the relationship then they arn't going to get into the relationship in the first place or stay in it if it's ongoing.
So where do you draw the line here is the key ?

(in reply to topcat)

Post #: 4

RE: Do you ask or tell a submissive ? - 1/22/2005 10:25:25 AM

SirTyson

Posts: 126
Joined: 12/8/2004
From: Chicago, Il
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: sydneycouple

Well I suppose that negotiation would have to be on ongoing proposition as we all have limits.
I guess the real question is........
If a Dom asks a Sub "well what do you want"
He would lose to some degree respect.
But on the other hand if the Sub isn't getting anything out of the relationship then they arn't going to get into the relationship in the first place or stay in it if it's ongoing.
So where do you draw the line here is the key ?

My personal feel on this is she is a sub, not a slave. Im not going to tell her the type of lifestyle she is going to be involved in or the type of sub she is going to be. What Im going to do to her, what she is going to do for me, etc. In the beginning of a relationship, as you are getting to know each other you should talk about what you both want as well as what you want to give in the relationship. From there you will be able to see if you are a match so to speak and then can build on things from there. Things you both want to try, things that are off limits, and also learn things together.

As topcat said, you should know what you want and bring to the table and so should she.

(in reply to sydneycouple)

Post #: 5

RE: Do you ask or tell a submissive ? - 1/22/2005 5:14:15 PM

FangsNfeet

Posts: 3758
Joined: 12/3/2004
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It's always important for both of you to say this is what I do, this is what I won't do for now, and this is what I will never do even to save the world.

I myself like to give choices. I have a tube of hot wax, a flogger, and a pair of cloths pins. Which order would you like them?

I have rope, chain, and cuffs. Take your pick.

I have a paddle, a switch, a belt, and my HAND. Now where do you want what for it's going to be hard?

When it comes to giving a session, it's important to read body language. For some submissive just never speak. Otherwise, they may tell you to stop in a way you wouldn't like.

Listen to what these other ppl told you. It's good advice that's going to take you a long way.

_____________________________

I'm Godzilla and you're Japan

(in reply to sydneycouple)

Post #: 6

RE: Do you ask or tell a submissive ? - 1/25/2005 11:59:22 AM

Cyis75

Posts: 164
Joined: 8/31/2004
From: Georgia
Status: offline

I've found that what works best for me is after all the typical limits negotiation goes on find out what areas are peak interests for the submissive as well as things that they may be interested but maybe a lil inexperienced or apprehensive about and talk about those. This gives a good idea of things to incorporate into the scene but doesn't let the submissive completely dictate the scene as I still have the ultimate control over the flow, order of events and which items are included. Ultimately you're wanting both you and the submissive to get something out of the scene, otherwise what's the purpose to either one to be in it? If you mix things that are of interst to both along with some that may be of more interest to you as the dominant and the submissive is open to trying then it gives a good opportunity for both. I also tend to make first scenes end with the submissive wanting more rather than going too far so things gradually get longer and more intense as time goes by, but the submissive keeps wanting to come back for more.

(in reply to sydneycouple)

Post #: 7

RE: Do you ask or tell a submissive ? - 1/25/2005 8:33:27 PM

domtimothy46176

Posts: 670
Joined: 12/25/2004
From: Dayton, Ohio area
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: sydneycouple

Being fairly inexperienced in this It would really be appreaciated for some wise words from the Doms here with more knowledge.
I would like to know from the experienced doms here whether you ask a submissive what kind of scene or relationship that they want or do you tell them "this is the way it is and the way it's going to be"
I'm talking here about the begining stage of a relationship,exchanging emails or after no scenes or only a few before you both get to know each other ?
I was going to ask this question of the submissives but thought that they may think that they like to negotiate everything but the reality may be quite different.
So what I am asking is I know that there are going to be variations but as a general rule how much is your command and how much is actual negotiation?

I'll share my experience and allow you to judge for yourself how much wisdom there is to be had from it, lol.

I don't negotiate a relationship, period. I know what I want in a relationship and I won't settle for less, ever. To compromise on the relationship is to compromise on my core beliefs and i won't do that.

I do, however, differentiate between activities and relationships. To be honest, I am very flexible in the activities found on most of the fetish activity worksheets found floating around on the web. What we do isn't nearly as important as the context in which we do it.

When I first spoke with my girl, we spent long hours discussing how we defined some of the more common terms and even longer discussing our personal philosophies and beliefs. Before we ever decided on a face-to-face meeting, we had determined that we shared values, beliefs, morals and goals for a potential relationship. There was no compromise or negotiation in this, nor should there have been, IMO.

Once we established that we were compatible, there was negotiation in areas of fetish activities, types and levels of control to be transferred to me and other physical manifestations of the relationship. I personally think of these as minor details that do not make or break a relationship. You can judge for yourself where your priorities lie and what is the foundation of a successful relationship in your mind.
Timothy

(in reply to sydneycouple)

Post #: 8

RE: Do you ask or tell a submissive ? - 1/25/2005 10:27:48 PM

LdyAuburn

Posts: 179
Joined: 5/9/2004
Status: offline

On a totally local note, sydney does have some good functions for new people. If you want to hear about just drop me an email

(in reply to domtimothy46176)

Post #: 9

RE: Do you ask or tell a submissive ? - 1/26/2005 7:55:13 AM

panthergoddess

Posts: 93
Joined: 1/11/2005
From: Bessemer City, NC USA
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: domtimothy46176
differentiate between activities and relationships. What we do isn't nearly as important as the context in which we do it.

Profound and I could not agree more.

(in reply to domtimothy46176)

Post #: 10

RE: Do you ask or tell a submissive ? - 1/29/2005 10:49:24 AM

Interesdom

Posts: 197
Joined: 5/24/2004
From: England
Status: offline

I agree with what domtimothy46176 says. You are forming a relationship and if you are mature about that - dominant or submissive - you well make sure that your potential partner is compatible in areas that you know are important to you.

If you are dominant, you will ensure you know what your potential partner's limits are (what they won't do) and what their needs are (what activities are required for them to feel satisfied). You need to be able to live with her limits and enjoy fulfilling her needs. Depending on what kind of relationship you two are seeking, it could be said that whatever else happens can largely be up to you, so long as you are aware of her emotional health and the well-being of the relationship.

Unless she's just fantasising, the question "what do you want" should be able to be asked very early without loss of respect. After a time it should be irrelevant: you know the answer in general and what she wants is not necessarily what she needs for a sustainable relationship with you and, as you suspect, the act of asking in that way can easily be what she does not want.

(in reply to sydneycouple)

Post #: 11

RE: Do you ask or tell a submissive ? - 1/30/2005 1:55:40 PM

sydneycouple

Posts: 13
Joined: 11/13/2004
Status: offline

Thanks for all the replies.
So what I get from that is that total communication is the key but once the wants and needs have been established the Dom should then have a very assertive way of behaving or he would lose respect.
So in a nutshell that's my take on it.

(in reply to Interesdom)

Post #: 12

RE: Do you ask or tell a submissive ? - 1/30/2005 9:08:01 PM

danae

Posts: 46
Joined: 1/2/2004
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: FangsNfeet

I myself like to give choices. I have a tube of hot wax, a flogger, and a pair of cloths pins. Which order would you like them?

I have rope, chain, and cuffs. Take your pick.

I have a paddle, a switch, a belt, and my HAND. Now where do you want what for it's going to be hard?

Excuse me for piping up on an obviously serious subject, but this sounds very close to what I do with my high school students, lol, and what my Master does with me...as a treat.

danae

(in reply to FangsNfeet)

Post #: 13

RE: Do you ask or tell a submissive ? - 1/30/2005 9:27:15 PM

Suleiman

Posts: 1127
Joined: 9/9/2004
Status: offline

The way I was raised, it was always negotiation first, orders later. It was considered proper etiquette, especially if the participants did not know each other very well, to at some point prior to the scene actually sit down somewhere private with a nice cup of coffee (or what have you) and to lay one's cards on the table for all to see.

Negotiation was supposed to include any health problems that might arise (STDs being the most prevalent example, but also other physical problems like having a bad back or damaged knees). Hard and soft limits were discussed, and frequently long-term goals and desires as well (assuming this wasn't just scene play at a party or the like). Scene space did not begin until all parties were satisfied and safewords had been exchanged - the formal exchange of safewords having taken on a ritual significance almost like the handshake at the closing of a bargain.

Of course, that was twelve years ago, and I was part of a small clique that might be considered a minority fringe for the local BDSM community, but I find those early habits die hard. I still have the disconcerting habit of looking a person in the eye and bluntly asking, "so what do you want?"

I find, I have never regretted doing so, but I have known many to regret having failed to do so.

_____________________________

Think of my verbosity as a sort of litmus test for our relationship. I write in a manner identical to how I speak and how I think. If you can not cope with what I have written here, it is probably for the best if we go our separate ways.

(in reply to sydneycouple)

Post #: 14

RE: Do you ask or tell a submissive ? - 1/31/2005 7:54:11 AM

wetrope

Posts: 117
Joined: 8/9/2004
From: GATINEAU, PQ
Status: offline

I have found the best place to start is to exchange a list of activities, things uv done, things ud like to try, and things that are not negotiable. Things are rated 1-5 in importance. It opens the floodgates to communication so both u and sub know what ur doing, where ur going. If you need a list go to alt.com, or if any trouble let me know and Ill send u a list. You should do this either before u meet (for coffee), or during your first meeting--not ur first session.

_____________________________

Wetrope

(in reply to Suleiman)

Post #: 15

RE: Do you ask or tell a submissive ? - 2/4/2005 8:03:50 PM

Interesdom

Posts: 197
Joined: 5/24/2004
From: England
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: sydneycouple
So what I get from that is that total communication is the key but once the wants and needs have been established the Dom should then have a very assertive way of behaving or he would lose respect.
So in a nutshell that's my take on it.

Fundamentally, yes but I want to make sure that you don't think there is a stage at which communication ceases. It is always dangerous to think "I know my sub and don't need to talk about her needs any more."

Later in the relationship, you should still be paying attentiion to what she says. This takes understanding of the way she expresses herself. For example, she might normally say "I don't like doing that" but you know from experience that this is the kind of thing she needs to feel dominated and she may as well be saying "I need you to do that for me to be fulfilled as a submissive" but if she used different language and showed an unusual reaction, this might be the time to pay close attention and question her about how she feels. (Note that the phrase is an example, not a code phrase: you must get to understand your girl.)

(in reply to sydneycouple)

Post #: 16

RE: Do you ask or tell a submissive ? - 3/6/2005 1:15:38 AM

chainedgirl

Posts: 142
Joined: 2/5/2005
Status: offline

Old thread, but i felt i had something to say here.

1. Just because i am a submissive does NOT mean i want to negotiate EVERYTHING. i find that an insulting comment and a put down. i may wish to negotiate the important things, but certainly NOT everything.

2. The important point in all of this for me is your comment "whether you ask a submissive what kind of scene or relationship that they want or do you tell them" right here this tells me you have not even started a relationship with them yet, but are still at the getting to know you stage. You have NO RIGHT to order a submissive to do anything until they are YOUR submissive. Then everything else that has been said becomes possible, but until then you ASK.

(in reply to Interesdom)

Post #: 17

RE: Do you ask or tell a submissive ? - 3/6/2005 4:06:00 AM

ShiftedJewel

Posts: 2492
Joined: 12/2/2004
Status: offline

quote:

It's always important for both of you to say this is what I do, this is what I won't do for now, and this is what I will never do even to save the world.

I love the way you put that! May I use it?

I ask, straight out......... but I also tell them in advance that I am polite and will say please and thank you, along with "when you get a chance I would like such and such"... followed by a warning that it is only because I am polite and "when you get a chance..." means "do it now"!

As far as scening goes... well, I love zippers, am obsessed with them, love the whole body zipper, I have far more then a pair of clothes pins, I have over one hundred of them. So I ask.... is this a hard limit? I also love vampire gloves and quirts, again, I ask if it is a hard limit.

I have to admit that Fangs has a wonderful waying of going about it... multiple choice. The Dominant is still making the initial decision but allowing the sub/slave to have input.

And as far as a relationship goes... I won't negotiate that. I think Topcat nailed it with his opening statement.

quote:

The real negotiation is with ones self- you must know clearly what you are seeking, and what you are bringing to the table, and what you are willing to compromise. As a couple, I’d suspect that it is easier for you to arrive at these answers, to check/stay each other and refine your ‘package’.

I know what I want, we, as a couple, know what we want. The trick is finding it. Patience is a biggie, I won't negotiate with someone because I want a long term relationship with that person and they either fit in or they don't. Why settle when in the long run it's just going to add a lot of work to an already complicated relationship? Know yourselves and what it is you are looking for.... it's all a learning process.

Jewel

_____________________________

Don't ask, trust me, you won't like the answer... no one ever does.

(in reply to FangsNfeet)

Post #: 18

RE: Do you ask or tell a submissive ? - 3/6/2005 3:59:20 PM

MidnightWriter

Posts: 131
Joined: 2/8/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: sydneycouple

Being fairly inexperienced in this It would really be appreaciated for some wise words from the Doms here with more knowledge.
I would like to know from the experienced doms here whether you ask a submissive what kind of scene or relationship that they want or do you tell them "this is the way it is and the way it's going to be"
I'm talking here about the begining stage of a relationship,exchanging emails or after no scenes or only a few before you both get to know each other ?

Much depends on whether we're talking about a scene or a relationship. In either case, before they've submitted, they're not MY submissive, and ordering them to simply accept my agenda is unrealistic.

If we're negotiating a scene (usually at a party), I pretty much let them choose what's on the menu, then decide what I'll do from their menu. If it's purely painplay, I won't even dom - while I'll top damn near anyone who hasn't annoyed me, I'm much pickier about who I'll dominate - to me, that's much more intimate. If it's just painplay, I'm cool with ganging up on what the bottom is looking for, and I assume that they know their own reactions better than I do.

In negotiating a relationship, I'll spend a LOT of time discussing pretty much everything under the sun - whether they like spectator sports, what movies they like, etc - there's more to a relationship than just the d/s, the sex, or the fetishwear. Once we're both reasonably sure that we both want a relationship, I negotiate for permission to conqueror. After that, I simply take what I want by force of will, or I demonstrate to us both that I am unable to. During the negotiation phase there will be episodes of d/s, but they're carefully negotiated for and clearly limited - those experiences are one of the ways we'll decide how well this works between us.

To be honest, I've only actually claimed a slave like that once - my other slave, I was in a kinky but mostly 'nilla relationship that got ramped up over some years before it became m/s. But the one I claimed like that worked well, for as long as it worked - and when we parted ways, they properly begged manumission - I've got no complaints about the way the d/s worked, and from what's been said between us since, neither do they.

_____________________________

Power corrupts. Absolute power ... is really pretty nifty.

TIES - pansexual BDSM social group in MN, USA - http://www.ties-bdsm.org

(in reply to sydneycouple)

Post #: 19

RE: Do you ask or tell a submissive ? - 3/6/2005 4:14:16 PM

Voltare

Posts: 841
Joined: 1/1/2004
From: Santiago, Chile
Status: offline

Yes.

There's been lots of good advice, so I will just add my two cents in briefly.

Before even going into the relationship, you should try to get at least a fuzzy idea of what it is you are really looking for. Are you interested in a play partner? Lover? Friend? Mentor? Long term relationship? Human pet? The roles that people play in our lives have almost infinate possibilities. If you don't know what you want out of someone else, it becomes very difficult to know what you will have in the end.

Once you know what you are actually looking for, it gives you a better idea of how to expect them to behave. If I am looking for a short term play partner, I would probably make it clear up front and indicate that since there will be little or no 'personal' relationship, then I would probably not be as flexible with my 'activity' expectations. If I am just looking for someone to, say, tie up and whip, then I will probably not ask the submissive about their favorite music or fondest family memories.

On the other hand, if I am looking for something more substantial and personal, then these things become far more important. Her feelings become of greater concern, and thus a greater amount of communication and exchange takes place. That, inevitably means that a lot more give and take will take place.

So, as a dominant, there are things I am flexible on, meaning I ask her feelings and thoughts. There are things I am not flexible on, and I make the important 'non-flexible' elements quite clear. For most beginning relationships, this usually includes hard limits, attitudes towards polyarmory, health issues, and long term expectations. These feelings aren't strictly dominant only in nature. Submissives will have issues that they are simply not willing to negotiate or compromise on as well! People on either extreme (either always asking or always telling) on both sides of the whip will quickly find themselves having difficulty in their relationships.

Stephan

_____________________________

http://www.vv3b.com/

"There is always some madness in love, but there is always some reason in madness." - F. Nietzsche

(in reply to sydneycouple)

Post #: 20

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