RE: Apalled- A Vent

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RedSavageSlave -> RE: Apalled- A Vent (10/10/2006 11:36:01 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: becca333 You know, life would be a lot simpler if we were all telepathic. I dont know how simple it would have been if this happened to me and the host could read my mind... We might never have gotten invited to ANY event again LOL

Sub03 -> RE: Apalled- A Vent (10/10/2006 11:57:54 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: boundfem To answer some of the posts: My Mistress and I discussed it much throughout the time we were there amongst ourselves. She was just mostly shocked and did not even know how to respond because She was not used to any situation like this- She's never been in a situation where someone took liberty with Her slave, it's a foreign concept to Her. She did not ingore my feelings, it was incredibly awkward... it also was small subtle touching (until he kissed my neck) and it was not like he came up and just started flogging me or fondling my breasts. She was much more bothered than I was (and I am a lesbian and do not sub to men at all), but again saying that She should have said something is a lot different than being in a situation where it just was uncomfortable. She is a VERY diplomatic person in general, it is one of Her extremely wonderful attributes in my opinion. If the Master would have done anything further, She would have said something or we would have left - we discussed that.. She did not want to create a scene (pardon the pun), but wanted to just attempt to keep his hands off of me in ways like subtlety and deflect his unwanted attention. The Master also spoke with my Mistress before this weekend at length about lifstyle phillosophies and he portrayed to Her that he was into ownership in a way extremely similar to Her. He introduced a few people as "his personal subs" who we then saw play with multiple other people both topping and bottoming. Again, this is fine and to each other their own, but completely not our style or what we are into. I do believe as one person suggested he was testing and he was trying to top my Mistress in a sense. That too is just wrong! He clearly portrays his parties as Lifestyle Scene events on his website, in his advertisements and in person .. not as kinky swinger parties AT ALL. I am sorry, but to me there is NEVER a time that it is okay to put your hands on someone else unless invited to do so. I did not find my Mistress at fault, She was attempting to be polite in someone else's house and not cause an uncomfortable vibe or scene. I would never speak up in front of other people with my Mistres present. It is the protocol I am used to; I would not even say I was hungry in Her presence to someone else or in front of someone else. I completely defer to Her especially in a public scene atmosphere, but even not. My way with Her is that it is my place to be quiet, kneel, attend to Her, defer to Her and other than polite short conversation I only speak to Her in an atmosphere like that. When we arrived, for example, other than a polite "hello. No, the traffic wasn't bad, " from me, She spoke to the Master exclusively. If I had any personal problem, I would have asked to speak with Her privately or waited until I was alone and whispered to Her; we discussed the situation several times during alone moments. I was never even not with Her for even on minute while we were there; there was no reason to think I was available to play with or touch. This Master often invites single female subs to his play parties - I can not imagine the uncomfortable forwardness they have to deal with. No one should be made to feel uncomfortable like that! A simple, "If you feel like playing with someone, just speak up or come to me, " suffices... not just casually putting your hands all over someone (and not their sexual parts, that would cause most females to protest directly. The subtle manner causes most to uncomfortably abide).. there is no reason to run your hands up and down someone's back or grope their arm repeatedly when you just say hello instead of a common, brief handshake - unless you have discussed it. He does not! He just puts his hands on people. It's just wrong. It's like I have often heard pregnant women complain about strangers touching their belly; even if the stranger asks, it is increcdbly startling and shocking and you are just put in an awkward position. Sometimes, just out of the startle you might nod your head yes but it doesn't make the person doing the asking and touching right. Some just don't even ask and assume a pregnant woman's belly is public property; the woman just feels so shocked and awkward they just wait out the incident and feel very offended nonethless. I don't know.. I learned in kindergarten to keep my hands to myself. Unless my Mistress said, 'Master X why don't you play with my sub and myself? Or, let me see how your crop works on my slave's hand," There is NO reason to put your hands on someone else's slave or think you are welcome to it. Would it be different if I were a guy? Because this Master does the same things to males as he plays with anyone and everyone no matter sex, orientation or sub/Dom/me. Imagine if you were a straight male sub and this Master came over and touched your balls .. because I witnessed him doing just that. He is known in the scene for over twenty years. It's not just his words. A couple of people I know met him at TES Fest. That wasn't a play party and it certainly wasn't a swinger party. He was extremely gropey and forward to complete strangers. I find this disgusting in any scenario, venue, lifestyle or not. I find that there is established protocol in the scene.. do not touch anything that does not belong to you unless you have been given permission or an invitation to do so. I am shocked so many are sidestepping or downplaying this. We left early the next day and did not stay throughout that day's lengthy brunch and play party as She could not wait to get out of there. Her being invited back is independent of me.. She may or may not go, with or without me. She doesn't even desire to go, but he announced publicly She would be the featured weekend guest Domme in another month when we were there prior to even confirming with Her. She most likely will not go back. My Mistress (and I am the same way) generally does not go to any Scene events -except She went to a seminar on branding at Tes Fest where She met this Master- nor play parties nor clubs, etc. The one period of time in my life when I had a vanilla boyfriend, I can not remember a single time when anyone (sober, perhaps it might happen when people are drinking) took the liberty to touch me in any way, shape, or form other than a polite handshake when I went somewhere with him. I don't care that it was a "scene" event or "play party", I was shocked and find it completely inappropriate in any time, place or situation. Your putting all the blame on the guy. While his actions weren't right, he did ask the first time to try out the flogger and after that I think it was a test to see if your Mistress would stop him. Ill agree he shouldnt have put his hands on you but he's not a mind reader, neither you or your Mistress said a word to him about what he was doing so how was he supposed to know? Its just my opinion but I think your Mistress was way more at fault then he was. Maybe thats just the way he runs his parties, it was his party afterall so you cant automatically expect the same rules you do at a public party. Hence why your Mistress should have said something. Who cares if it causes a scene. Your HER property, its her responsibility to look out and care for you and I think personally she failed. When me and my Master play publically the first rule he told me was if anyone wants to touch me they have to ask him first. And if someone tried to touch me without his permission they would be severly sorry asfter my Master dealt with them. I know that for a fact and completely trust my Master and know that he wont let anything happen to me. How can you feel the same with your Mistress after this?

LadyHugs -> RE: Apalled- A Vent (10/10/2006 12:25:26 PM)
Dear boundfem, Ladies and Gentlemen; I am disappointed to see that your Mistress did not do anything to prevent such behavior from the very beginning. My mind's eye says; what is taking the Mistress so long in protesting the touches. Of course, the Mistress not saying anything is just as much as an invitation, in my mind's eye. Secondly, kinky sex parties are not BDSM or M/s protocol minded. As far as that goes--anything goes until you protest. Slave sex is a free for all in some areas. I won't take a slave and subject them to such. Respectfully submitted for consideration, Lady Hugs

MzPam -> RE: Apalled- A Vent (10/10/2006 12:30:17 PM)
I would like to say this Master was deffinatly out of place, as was your Mistress and you ! I go to the munches, parties ect. and everyone knows whether Dom/me, sub, slave, vanilla I don't care if it is My property you do NOT touch with out permission period, I do not care if your a friend or not, A simple hug how are you how have you been ect is fine as it is what W/we do. I have on a rare occasion allowed a good friend to "play" with My boy, but only after rules are set and they and slave knows what can be done and what can not. I missed that day in kindergarden when they taught the sharing thing lol, so it happens very rarely and I do mean rarely. If said Master touched My property I do not care who he is or who is there I will speak up nicely the first time, but not after that, if you dare after the first time you are fair game to Me, I have found most I have met in this lifestyle do follow protocals. It is My job to protect My property and his/her job to inform Me if someone is doing something out of place, most Doms I know would not ask to use My slave to show Me something, instead they will offer their toy for Me to try out, and if by some chance I do not know how to use it then they normally get their property to show Me on. So simply put Y/you all are to blame in this, I do lay most on him for touching but hello the Mistress should NEVER feel uncomfortable to speak up and protect whats Hers. I would hope the rest of Y/your experiences are alot better than this one was. Mz Pam

WhipTheHip -> RE: Apalled- A Vent (10/10/2006 12:46:01 PM)
It's very simple, you should have told your Mistress that this host made you feel unfortable by touching you, and she or you should have told him in a polite way, you are uncomfortable with people aside from you mistress touching you. It is really that simple. A polite remark is all that was necessary. It sounds to me like you making a mountain out of mole hill.

Argentopal -> RE: Apalled- A Vent (10/10/2006 12:59:40 PM)
Most of the "good stuff" has already been said; He was not a 'gentleman' and your Mistress did have every right to say something. Perhaps even along the lines of " I am so sorry, but perhaps I am not familier with the "house rules" for your wonderful weekends. Do you require that all subs are allowed to be touched in such a manner? If so, perhaps I should have read your "house rules" closer before we accepted your kind invitation. My sub(slave) and I are not as open and comfortable with her being touched as many seem to be. I hope that is not a problem here." But I would like to make an additional pov known as well. In our area when someone has a private house party they include "house rules" to everyone who accept. We have a large house in the country and we do have parties and weekend long parties. We have a set of house rules in addition to the standard acceptable rules of behavior. We make sure everyone has a copy. HOWEVER .... I am a hugger - toucher and I warn people when I meet someone new that I tend to hug without thinking and if they do not allow it or like it to please tell me. And there are good friends that Daddy and I both know we can touch (not in scene) and they can touch me almost anytime. So some might see us and think we are not "being good" but it is all about the personal relationships. If this man did not attempt to touch you sexually, while I admit the kiss was oout of place, it may be his style in his enviroment. If you go to other private parties anyplace be sure and ask for the house rules ahead of time and if there are none then ask specifically if anyone touching anyone is allowed or not. just another take on it. MsOpal

teamnoir -> RE: Apalled- A Vent (10/10/2006 1:53:52 PM)
Someone needs to state a boundary if a boundary is going to be recognized. Ownership in and of itself means nothing. What you experienced was a form of implicit negotiation. If you don't what is happening, then you need to say so and to state a boundary. The rest of the world can't read minds very accurately.

MochaMistress -> RE: Apalled- A Vent (10/10/2006 6:40:33 PM)
Hmmm your Mistress should have politely put him in his place. And if he still did not understand then she should have not so politely up him his place and departed. No body touches whats mine with out my invitation or permission. That was a total sign of the Dom not respecting your Mistress.

deltadawn -> RE: Apalled- A Vent (10/10/2006 7:07:45 PM)
I have to go with the majority here. There seem to be three people involved, 2 that did not want the advances shown. I think your Mistress needed to speak up, and if she did not and you were uncomfortable, you should have spoken up. Some parties can be pretty wild, but usually a simple no thank you is enough to stop any touching from happening. dawn

spanklette -> RE: Apalled- A Vent (10/10/2006 7:09:16 PM)
My immediate response to this is that if someone touched me without my Daddy's permission at a party/bar/McDonalds...any place at all...you might as well yell at the top of your lungs, "Fire in the hole!!!" Besides, He's got the Stare of Doom that melts evildoers into smelly spots on the carpet. In all seriousness, this is a lack of communication on your parts (your Mistress and yourself). If she ordered a steak at a restaurant and they brought her sushi...would she just bust out the chopsticks? I find this situation to be uncomfortable, as well, but sometimes you just have to assert yourself. This may or may not be some underhanded Domination on your host's part, but it might have just been boorishness. Dominance doesn't equal sensitivity or good manners, although IMO both should be qualities of a good Dominant. You gotta stand up for yourself otherwise people will just walk all over you...by the way, you don't mind if I eat that steak, right?[8\|] Edited for typos.

boundfem -> RE: Apalled- A Vent (10/10/2006 7:51:52 PM)
quote: Ownership in and of itself means nothing. Funny, that I guess is the key thing. Where I come from, it means everything! Groping someone else's slave on the back and running your hands through their hair without being directly invited to do so is just ill-mannered and disrespectful. Asserting yourself into someone else's scene without being directly invited and asked to do so is ill-mannered and rude and imposing and an intrusion. I don't care about "house rules", just because I am there, does not mean I am community property. I thought that was how things were, I guess my not attending any scene events is the right way to go if the general consensus is that this is okay unless I purposefully and directly say otherwise. I would think that it would be wrong on the other party's behalf unless I or my Mistress in this case said something otherwise and invited him to do so. Thanks for all of your input. I guess I am the oddball because I thought ownership meant a whole damn lot in the lifestyle.

spanklette -> RE: Apalled- A Vent (10/10/2006 7:58:14 PM)
To be clear, I don't think anyone said that his behavior was not wrong. The majority of the posts implied that just because his behavior was wrong doesn't excuse you from personal responsibility. I suppose what you wanted was for everyone to say "Poor you." Maybe you should have specified that in the OP.

MisPandora -> RE: Apalled- A Vent (10/10/2006 8:06:01 PM)
I'm going to be unpopular, but your mistress needs to get the slap just as much as he does. If you own property, and you fail to protect it, YOU fail as an owner. I saw at least three or more points where she should have put her foot down and said no to this ass. She should be ashamed of herself that she didn't. The most simple way is say NO. Another option was to pick up and leave, and to make sure that you tell your friends of the uncouth manner in which this fellow chooses to behave. I'll add that you've really clearly illustrated that she was in over her head in this public environment, and even made an excuse for her that she was fearful of him and didn't wish to make a stir because there were others around. That's not exactly a positive light to paint one's owner in.

MisPandora -> RE: Apalled- A Vent (10/10/2006 8:14:25 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: boundfem To answer some of the posts: My Mistress and I discussed it much throughout the time we were there amongst ourselves. She was just mostly shocked and did not even know how to respond because She was not used to any situation like this- She's never been in a situation where someone took liberty with Her slave, it's a foreign concept to Her. She did not ingore my feelings, it was incredibly awkward... it also was small subtle touching (until he kissed my neck) and it was not like he came up and just started flogging me or fondling my breasts. She was much more bothered than I was (and I am a lesbian and do not sub to men at all), but again saying that She should have said something is a lot different than being in a situation where it just was uncomfortable. She is a VERY diplomatic person in general, it is one of Her extremely wonderful attributes in my opinion. Bullshit. If I know your limits is men, then I'd saw off my fucking arms to protect that. I'm not going to passively sit there and ALLOW that crap to happen, regardless of how diplomatic a person I am..... You're making excuses and placing all of the blame on this guy. It sounds as though ya'll KNEW his track record already. Why would you expect him to treat you any differently? If anything, I'd have been on higher alert because of his previous bad behavior -- to the point that I'd have probably not gone to his ridiculous parties which would only support/sponsor his continued bad actions in a public venue.

LadyHugs -> RE: Apalled- A Vent (10/10/2006 10:04:08 PM)
Dear boundfem, Ladies and Gentlemen; Ownership in my day, was taking responsibilities for your behavior, as well as protection of the slave and all associated duties as an owner. Fact is, blaming it on somebody else either Master, Mistress or slave is often an excuse of not doing the job 'in house' with the relationship. It is easy to blame an outsider and easy to dismiss the obvious failures of an owner to do their job. Nobody is a mind reader, to which words must be stated clearly. I haven't had anybody take over a slave of mine period. They may try however, they'll find I make quite a match if they wish to test my will. Although it wasn't involving a slave, an individual decided to crack a single tail in a sea of tables out from the dungeon floor. The individual a week before cracked the single tail in the same area, showing off and being a rude jerk, unsafely handling a whip; spilled beer onto my leather dress, my guest and such. Never one word of an apology. Next week, this individual was going to do the same, claiming they were safe with the whip. I rose up to my feet and had an in your face silent face off. All I saw was a bunch of fellas pulling this guy away as soon as they could. I rarely get beyond the annoyed part but, when I do--people know that I will act strongly and back it up. I am not making excuses for the guy who hosted this 'party.' However, the owner should have grown a set of gonads as to protect you and herself. I don't see anywhere, where your owner sought advice from other attendees or sit with individuals who might have shown 'the way' to manage the situation. If you wish a 'powder puff' dominant fine but, if you want a strong dominant--its best to say it now and get some spine. Being a woman, a lady--I don't have to get vulgar, I don't have to scrap like a wrestler but, I will be heard and as one strong individual. If the owner cannot say 'No," then leave. I said "No" to a presenter at a conference. I wasn't going to behave in a manner that was demeaning as a lady. So, I told that presenter no, I wasn't going to do the certain thing he had another do but, negotiations are open. The presenter saw that I was strong and agreed to let me do something else. We both parted ways having our way. Respectfully submitted for consideration, Lady Hugs

SadistCpl4fslv -> RE: Apalled- A Vent (10/10/2006 10:15:38 PM)
Mucho agreement with the vast majority of posts! Actually, a situation like this did happen to my then submissive and future wife. The only difference is it happened in MY house. A dominant, who turned out to be one of those real preditors alluded to in another thread, tried to put his hands all over my girl without my permission and in a very deceptive manner. Should I have done nothing in order to avoid an awkward scene and then cry for others to sympathize with me while bashing him in text for his behavior? Hell No!! Out the door he went immediatly and never allowed to come back again. Had I not taken a proactive position where my submissives safety and honor were at stake I rather doubt that we would be married now. The difference in your situation is that this was his house and his rules. End of discussion. You both should have left if this made you feel so uncomfortable, awkward scene or not. Sometimes hard decissions have to be made by a Dominant on behalf of their submissives when strangers or even friends breach a hard limit. That is part of the commitment and control that is the Dominants responsibility. If a Dominant is unable to make those decisions on behalf of their submissive, for what ever lofty reasons, I would question whether they are really up to the responsibility IMO. In the future I suggest that you stop crying about it and simply don't go back to this persons house, as well as the others that seem to have a problem with this person should do like wise. Hell, I know plenty of people that I simply don't like to be around so I make the choice NOT to be around them. But that is my personal preference and does not make them a bad person. For every one of me there are probably a dozen more that actually like being around those people.

mam -> RE: Apalled- A Vent (10/10/2006 11:04:02 PM)
"She doesn't even desire to go, but he announced publicly She would be the featured weekend guest Domme in another month when we were there prior to even confirming with Her. " It seems that along with the touching, he likes to assume to much. You both should have said something at the time. It sounds as tho the fellow is a real ass. If he has been in the lifestyle so long and behaving this way, I wonder how he has survived?

LuckyAlbatross -> RE: Apalled- A Vent (10/11/2006 3:47:36 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: mam It seems that along with the touching, he likes to assume to much. You both should have said something at the time. It sounds as tho the fellow is a real ass. If he has been in the lifestyle so long and behaving this way, I wonder how he has survived? It might be that he's really not so much of an ass, that he tends to surround himself with people who share his values of relaxed touching and made a mistake in this particular case. There are many great bdsm private party weekends in which people can and do come together in a relaxed set of rules when it comes to touching and sex and sharing- I've been to several. It seems the problem here was more one of gross miscommunication and assumption- something which really could have been easily and politely handled on any side at any point in time.

darkinshadows -> RE: Apalled- A Vent (10/11/2006 4:13:47 AM)
Well, it is his party and so his rules stick - no matter what. If you dont like the rules, then leave and dont attend again. Your dominiant made an error if she didn't set him straight, but if it was thrust upon her, and she isnt the confrontational type, and this is all a new experience, then it was a mistake, pure and simple. Dominants are people to, and they make mistakes. As long as she learns from it and so do you and she talk it through, then is all good, as long as it doesnt become something that effects you regularly. Big break down of communications and lots of assumptions here. But lots to learn: Always find out the protocols of a Party before hand - especially a private one. Make sure you understand the party organisers expectations and what they are used to. Communicate and don't be afraid to say no or be embarressed to do so - if you prefere to observe at first, approach the organisers and make your intentions clear. Be prepared to leave whenever you want or feel uncomfortable. Peace and Rapture

gypsylee -> RE: Apalled- A Vent (10/11/2006 4:29:51 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: boundfem ...She was just mostly shocked and did not even know how to respond because She was not used to any situation like this- She's never been in a situation where someone took liberty with Her slave, it's a foreign concept to Her... i'm not aware of how experienced you or your Mistress are in the BDSM scene but my first instinct when i read this was that maybe you shouldn't have been at the party in the first place? as a relatively inexperienced sub i would be extremely wary of going to anything like this. maybe it has nothing to do with experience or BDSM (and hey, we all have to start somewhere). this is just me. some close friends of mine are swingers who regularly attend a club and the very idea makes me cringe. reading your story made my skin crawl and it did put me off going to play parties or whatever. please don't feel i'm being judgemental... the whole thing just gives me the heebie jeebies... [:'(]

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