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ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth

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Breaking the law is illegal. That's not difficult to comprehend, for me at least.

peter,
We agree and it's good to have you on board against illegal immigration! Remember to vote accordingly.

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ORIGINAL: mugwump

My argument is a simple one - in a country with as diverse a population as the UK we either have to have rules that apply to everybody, or no rules at all.

Selective laws increase the current tensions and feed the anger of the lowest common denomenators on either side of the cultural/religious fence that they are 'being wronged' - hence more violence and hatred, hence more activism, hence more violence and hatred.

It's a scary future...

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ORIGINAL: thompsonx

Mercnbeth:
I have noticed a lot of folks posting on here that they are against illegal immigration but I have not seen a lot of explanation as to why they are against it...perhaps you would be willing to share your thoughts on this.

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ORIGINAL: bills944

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ORIGINAL: mugwump

My argument is a simple one - in a country with as diverse a population as the UK we either have to have rules that apply to everybody, or no rules at all.

Selective laws increase the current tensions and feed the anger of the lowest common denomenators on either side of the cultural/religious fence that they are 'being wronged' - hence more violence and hatred, hence more activism, hence more violence and hatred.

It's a scary future...

I'll say it's a scary future thanks to Bush, watch the video and watch how the Bill of Rights has disappeared:

The only rules in America now are Bush's rules.  Thanks to the Republicans the United States no longer has the Bill of Rights, no democracy, people need to wake up and smell the coffee.  The United States citizens have no more rights than citizens in Iran.

Crooks and Liars » Olbermann: “Why does habeas corpus hate America”Video - WMV   Video - QT
http://www.crooksandliars.com/2006/10/10/olbermann-why-does-habeas-corpus-hate-america/

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Mercnbeth:
I have noticed a lot of folks posting on here that they are against illegal immigration but I have not seen a lot of explanation as to why they are against it...perhaps you would be willing to share your thoughts on this.
thompson

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ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth

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Mercnbeth:
I have noticed a lot of folks posting on here that they are against illegal immigration but I have not seen a lot of explanation as to why they are against it...perhaps you would be willing to share your thoughts on this.
thompson

thompson,
Sorry - I didn't see your question earlier.

As Sinergy posted - It's Illegal. Rationalizing the acceptance of an illegal act and ignoring the perpetrators sets an example. Where does it stop? Who determines what laws are to be enforced and which aren't? Just because there are so many breaking the law should the law be ignored? Why should a juvenile be concerned about breaking curfew, also a 'victim-less' crime, when hundreds of people march in the streets admitting to being lawbreakers are protected by police instead of arrested by them?

However, my primary reason against illegal immigration is exploitation. I find it ironic that those opposed to enforcing existing laws are in fact supporting corporations and industries exploitation of these people. I don't support enforcement at the individual illegal alien level. I feel enforcement should be directed to the person or corporation who hires anyone illegally who is in the country illegally. I think they should be subject to fine and bear all the cost of deportation of anyone found in their employ. This action would cost the government nothing. The argument; "you can't deport 10,000,000 people!" is a diversion. You don't have to deport any of them. Enforce and require the perpetrating employer to pay the freight and enforcement costs you nothing. Do it enough and the market  disappears. There won't be any reason for the illegals to come here. At least no work reason. Whether that employer is a corporate farm, Tyson, or an individual who picks up weekend day labor at Home Depot; arrest them, fine them, and make it expensive for them.

Why? Without access to this illegal work force employers would be forced to pay US citizens a better wage. Construction workers, especially here in California, estimate that their hourly wage is 25% below what it should/could be if a workforce of illegal aliens wasn't taking jobs at a below value hourly rate.

There are many other reasons for my position. The underground economy of cash payments to illegals causes US citizens to pay more taxes to make up the difference. Hospitals, especially emergency care facilities are closing because although they can not refuse treatment for anyone, they do not get paid for their services provided to illegal aliens. The hospital situation routinely occurs in the lowest economic sectors of the community. In effect, the poor US citizens lose the meager access they have as a result.

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but your solutions don't really go to the meat of the matter.
It was not too long ago that a fellow was arrested in L.A. for getting a blow job in his car and the government confiscated his car because it was used in  the commission of a crime.  The California supreme court and the U.S. Supreme court upheld this action.  How about the government seizes Tyson foods, Wallmart and the homes of many of your neighbors in Palos Verdes where the lawns are mowed and the houses cleaned by illegal aliens. 

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Raise the minimum wage to $15.00 per hour and you will see lots of white people picking lettuce and tomatoes.

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As far as the health care thing I would rather pay to keep them healthy than to pay for an epidemic caused by not treating them. They are human beings, breaking the law or not, and to deny them health care is not the civilized thing to do.

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In a broader historical sense one might question who is the illegal alien,

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ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth

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but your solutions don't really go to the meat of the matter.
It was not too long ago that a fellow was arrested in L.A. for getting a blow job in his car and the government confiscated his car because it was used in  the commission of a crime.  The California supreme court and the U.S. Supreme court upheld this action.  How about the government seizes Tyson foods, Wallmart and the homes of many of your neighbors in Palos Verdes where the lawns are mowed and the houses cleaned by illegal aliens. 

thompson,
That is exactly my solution. The businesses and homes SHOULD be impounded for flagrant hiring of illegal aliens. Why don't you feel this action would be effective?

A legal worker cuts my lawn, at least he had the correct ID; however I had no way of verifying the ID's legitimacy. However, I pay him 25% of what I'd pay for the same work in NJ. Why? Because the market price for lawn care is artificially low due to illegal workers. Get rid of all the illegal alien lawn care workers and I'm paying more for the same service. I'm sure the same would be true for my house cleaners, who for this very reason, I use a national company that does employee documentation verification  I would love to do so.

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Raise the minimum wage to $15.00 per hour and you will see lots of white people picking lettuce and tomatoes.

Also agree. Except if you are talking about lettuce pickers the average wage paid to an illegal is currently $1/hour. Lets eliminate the illegal aliens and hire legal workers at a market price and see who shows up. Without any legislative action I'd bet the minimum wage would go up dramatically. With it so too rise tax revenue and subsequently provide deficit relief or the ability to offer more services to US citizens.

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As far as the health care thing I would rather pay to keep them healthy than to pay for an epidemic caused by not treating them. They are human beings, breaking the law or not, and to deny them health care is not the civilized thing to do.

The point was we are not denying them care. They are only denied care similarly to US citizen poor living in the same neighborhoods who also don't have access to medical coverage when the emergency room closes.

Edited to add:

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In a broader historical sense one might question who is the illegal alien,

No - one might not because where does it end? Return the colonies to the British? Mexico exists as a function of Spanish conquest over the indigenous people. Go back far enough and you have to give the title to the planet to the decedents of 'Adam & Eve". I guess that ultimately gives it back to all of us.

Keep the argument on today's reality. Playing historical "what if" scenarios just discounts the validity of any other point.

This started regarding the issue of legal. As it's legally defined and accepted by international law, the US border is the legal definition of the US. Anyone not a legal citizen as defined by the US government is an alien. If they do not have the proper documentation to visit, work and/or live in the US they are an ILLEGAL alien.

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ORIGINAL: popeye1250

Thompson, and we took Germany away from the Nazis too.
I don't think anyone would want to give it back to them.
As a Taxpayer why should I have to pay for anything for foreign nationals in my country illegally?
Those people have their own countries to live in. If they don't like them then they need to change them not sneak into a foreign country!
They now cost us $70 Billion per year.
What makes the U.S. a great country is we are a country of laws.
Our govt. at all levels is not enforcing the laws in this area.
In short, they're not doing their jobs!

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ORIGINAL: Sinergy

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ORIGINAL: thompsonx

Mercnbeth:
I have noticed a lot of folks posting on here that they are against illegal immigration but I have not seen a lot of explanation as to why they are against it...perhaps you would be willing to share your thoughts on this.

I will take a stab at this one.

Firstly, I am opposed to illegal immigration because it is, well, illegal.  Our borders have always accepted anybody who wants to come to our country, and I honestly believe that we should continue to accept immigrants.

Where the logic breaks down is when people come to our country, refuse to get  social security and green cards, dont pay taxes, and use services that taxpaying people in the United States pay for.  I say to let them in.  Give them a damn green card and put them on the W2 payroll along with everybody else.

Business dont like this because, for example in rebuilding New Orleans scandals, they can hire illegal immigrants, use them, and refuse to pay them.  So the Corporatocracy enjoys illegal immigrants because it increases their profit margins.  This goes from the top level of corporations to the lowest.

As far as those illegal immigrants who complain that they need to be here because their country is so backwards and the like, my response to them is "I pay taxes and obey laws to make this country a good place to live.  You dont like your country, go home and fix it.  Dont come here and try to exploit our government services, set up your own private Cambodian or Chinese or wherever black market, and attempt to fleece the law abiding and tax paying citizens of the US of things we have worked diligently to build."

Just me, could be wrong, but there you go.

Sinergy

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ORIGINAL: thompsonx

Raise the minimum wage to $15.00 per hour and you will see lots of white people picking lettuce and tomatoes.

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I do find some basic differences between a war of revolution and a war of aggression.  Should the U.S. prevail in Iraq will we make it the 51st state?

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Mexico does not exist as a function of the Spanish conquest but just as the U.S., it exists as a response to imperialism.  Mexico fought a war of revolution against Spain just as the U.S. fought a war of revolution against England.  The U.S. invaded Mexico and took this land at the point of a gun.  Not to recognize the history of this acquisition only serves to exacerbate the situation.

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Please let us continue our discussions in hopes of finding some meaningful progress.

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ORIGINAL: Sinergy

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ORIGINAL: thompsonx

Raise the minimum wage to $15.00 per hour and you will see lots of white people picking lettuce and tomatoes.

You can thank the Governator (poster boy for the Republicans) for vetoing laws passed by the California State Legislature (three times) to raise the state minimum wage.

Which, for all you California hating people, means that the people in the state of California generally think people should be paid a living wage for their work.

If more states agreed with this logic, perhaps the Federal Government would be forced to enact similar laws and make the United States a better place for everybody to live.

On the other hand, Im not holding my breath.  Look who the people in Dumbfuckistan elected to run the country...

I suspect Ahnold will go back to acting.  Im not sure he will be elected dog catcher in California after his shenanigans.

Just me, could be wrong, but there you go.

Sinergy

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ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth

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I do find some basic differences between a war of revolution and a war of aggression.  Should the U.S. prevail in Iraq will we make it the 51st state?

Name the last territory seized by the US as the result of a war victory? Do we hold any part of Japan? Germany? Were the oil fields of the middle east occupied by the US or the UK? Did the US maintain any colonies in South America, Africa, or Asia? In fact the US is the first world power who didn't acquire and occupy conquered lands. Compare US it to post WWII Russia. 

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Mexico does not exist as a function of the Spanish conquest but just as the U.S., it exists as a response to imperialism.  Mexico fought a war of revolution against Spain just as the U.S. fought a war of revolution against England.  The U.S. invaded Mexico and took this land at the point of a gun.  Not to recognize the history of this acquisition only serves to exacerbate the situation.

I agree with not recognizing history. Should Alaska be given back to the Russians since we discovered oil there? It's not a nonsequitur. The US acquired what is now California in the same manner through PURCHASE from Mexico, under a treaty signed by both countries.

The cause of the war was the Texas succeeding from Mexico and becoming obtaining Statehood. That created a border dispute which on April 25, 1846 became a shooting conflict. The US/Mexican war resulting in the purchase of lands as part of the treaty, and retreat of the US troops from lands south of the Rio Grande river in Texas.

For reference:

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On February 2, 1848, The Treaty of Guadeloupe Hidalgo was signed, later to be ratified by both the U.S. and Mexican Congresses. The treaty called for the annexation of the northern portions of Mexico to the United States. In return, the U.S. agreed to pay $15 million to Mexico as compensation for the seized territory.

Source: http://www.historyguy.com/Mexican-American_War.html

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Please let us continue our discussions in hopes of finding some meaningful progress.

Sure! Let's talk about the present regarding sovereign national borders that exist today.

It seems a simple question. Is "legal" subject to personal interpretation or definitive?

If you'd like, I'll adopt a position that instead of changing or amending any of the existing immigration laws, how about just making US law reciprocal? I'd support a movement to treat immigration exactly the same as the country of origin of the individual. I'd especially support reciprocity for any child born on US soil. Would you agree to that standard? Have you any idea what the penalty and consequences are of being an illegal immigrant in Mexico?