RE: committing a crime=bi-polar?!?!

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ShiftedJewel -> RE: committing a crime=bi-polar?!?! (10/14/2006 4:20:07 AM)
*(fast reply)* I had a roommate once that suffered from severe bi-polar disorder. Yes, she was medicated but they were constantly trying new meds in an attempt to find the right combination. I met her after she got out of prison where she was doing time for going into a fit of rage and hitting her sister in the head with a cast iron skillet... yes, her sister recovered just fine. In the time that she lived with me I found her to be extremely loving and caring but there were those times when she lost control. One instance she called me from a local mental hospital where she had checked herself in because she was feeling very suicidal. Another time she left in the morning to go to breakfast with her best friend then later called me from that same mental hospital asking me to bring her some of her stuff, she had checked herself in because she had gone into another fit of rage and stabbed her best friend in the neck with a pencil. I have never seen her as a criminal, she was someone that had absolutely no control over her emotions. She was never happy... she was ecstatic, she was never sad, she was suicidal, she didn't get angry, she became enraged. She suffered from extreme emotions and because everyone is different and every case of bi-polar is different all they could do was keep trying new meds and different doses to try and get it under control. I haven't followed this case you're talking about... but I have experienced bi-polar up close and personal and it's devastating to everyone, the one suffering from it and all those around them. Is it a copout or is it a legitimate problem? As far as I'm concerned it's a legit problem. *Jewel*

subbie12 -> RE: committing a crime=bi-polar?!?! (10/14/2006 6:54:39 PM)
I have been taking anti-depressants for years and went through the phase where the P-doc helps you find the correct medication or combination of medications that work with your problems. I have multiple psych diagnosis that include clinical depression and PTSD so I can say I have had personal experience with the impatient treatment in psych wards and the ups and downs of going off the meds and winding back up in the hospital until I am once again stable and on my medications. It has been about 9 years since I have made that mistake....the last time cured me. S Having had so many episodes of being an inpatient I have had a fair amount of experience with the process of getting a diagnosis, medications and how they work and how to take them....the dangers of suddenly stopping them (this one nearly cost me my life) and the correct way to wean your self off them. I also know how a person acts when not medicated....especially when they are manic! I even lived with a bi-polar friend for several months. That is why I feel most people who are bi-polar know they are that way by the time they are adults. Very few become criminals.... The reason I brought up the topic of people using mental diagnosis to explain their criminal behavior is that lately I have seen several instances of people doing this. The crimes committed are not ones where there were violent behavior. The most recent one is where the congressman was sexually improper with the pages. The other case was similar... I have a hard time accepting their claims and am offended that they would do this. It is like heaping another crime on top of the one they just got busted for. These are people who are supposed to be our advocates with the government! As a mental health patient that has always been open about her illness I have had to deal with peoples prejudices in an effort to educate people. Educating the public is an ongoing battle but it is something that must be done to make it easier for those that fallow us. grrrrr LOL I am outraged that people would stoop to using such an excuse for their horrible behavior! I know they don't care but, I do.. stomps her little foot!.....guess I just wanted to rant........... Okay, I feel better now :) Thanks for listening!

LTRsubNW -> RE: committing a crime=bi-polar?!?! (10/14/2006 7:24:15 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: subbie12 I keep hearing about people (especially ppl in public office) who have committed a crime and all of a sudden they are making the announcement that they are "bi-polar"! This seems so absurd! Being bi-polar is not an excuse to justify committing a crime. Millions of people who really are diagnosed by a psychiatrist as being bi-polar and don't commit crimes. The people (and especially their lawyers who are advising them to claim this) do not realize the disservice they are doing to the people who are mentally ill. Such practices are only making it more difficult for society to not see the mentally ill as dangerous to society! All the hard work that has gone into helping to educate society to not see the mentally ill as socially lower class people because they are considered dangerous is going down the drain. I know that the lawyers are only trying to do their job but surely they could use some other tactic. It really makes me upset to see this going on. Ok....enough of a rant for the moment. climbs down from soap box Honey, the lawyers are going for what will serve their client best, i.e., getting them off. Don't get caught up in the same frenzy. It doesn't suit you. If they thought that convincing the jurors that "my client was consumed by the confluence of the ringing of the jingle of the ice cream truck and the ongoing cacaphone of the 3 stray cats that rail all night long in heat..."...they'd use that defense. But they don't...largely because ice cream trucks and horny cats just don't seem to do it for most juries. The dreaded "Bi-Polar" does. Because it sounds so insidious. Those of us who know someone who is (or those of us who've been told we "might" be), know better. You can't fight this one alone...but be aware...this isn't your fight. All you need do is smile, and live a phenomenal life. (It's the best defense). Live yours. (Not theirs).

nefertari -> RE: committing a crime=bi-polar?!?! (10/14/2006 8:16:28 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: LTRsubNW quote: ORIGINAL: subbie12 I keep hearing about people (especially ppl in public office) who have committed a crime and all of a sudden they are making the announcement that they are "bi-polar"! This seems so absurd! Being bi-polar is not an excuse to justify committing a crime. Millions of people who really are diagnosed by a psychiatrist as being bi-polar and don't commit crimes. The people (and especially their lawyers who are advising them to claim this) do not realize the disservice they are doing to the people who are mentally ill. Such practices are only making it more difficult for society to not see the mentally ill as dangerous to society! All the hard work that has gone into helping to educate society to not see the mentally ill as socially lower class people because they are considered dangerous is going down the drain. I know that the lawyers are only trying to do their job but surely they could use some other tactic. It really makes me upset to see this going on. Ok....enough of a rant for the moment. climbs down from soap box Honey, the lawyers are going for what will serve their client best, i.e., getting them off. Don't get caught up in the same frenzy. It doesn't suit you. If they thought that convincing the jurors that "my client was consumed by the confluence of the ringing of the jingle of the ice cream truck and the ongoing cacaphone of the 3 stray cats that rail all night long in heat..."...they'd use that defense. But they don't...largely because ice cream trucks and horny cats just don't seem to do it for most juries. The dreaded "Bi-Polar" does. Because it sounds so insidious. Those of us who know someone who is (or those of us who've been told we "might" be), know better. You can't fight this one alone...but be aware...this isn't your fight. All you need do is smile, and live a phenomenal life. (It's the best defense). Live yours. (Not theirs). For those of us who have mental health issues or have a loved one with mental health issues, it is our fight. There is already a stigma and these cases just perpetuate it. We have to make others aware that this is not appropriate and is, in fact, detrimental to the mental health profession and those that suffer from those illnesses and their families. One example is paranoid schizophrenics being protrayed as violent in movies and on t.v. When in reality, a very, very low percentage of these people are actually violent; generally they are more of a danger to themselves than to others.

LTRsubNW -> RE: committing a crime=bi-polar?!?! (10/14/2006 8:26:46 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: nefertari For those of us who have mental health issues or have a loved one with mental health issues, it is our fight. There is already a stigma and these cases just perpetuate it. We have to make others aware that this is not appropriate and is, in fact, detrimental to the mental health profession and those that suffer from those illnesses and their families. One example is paranoid schizophrenics being protrayed as violent in movies and on t.v. When in reality, a very, very low percentage of these people are actually violent; generally they are more of a danger to themselves than to others. You can't change them. But you can show them "you". (And what better way to prove them wrong).

nefertari -> RE: committing a crime=bi-polar?!?! (10/14/2006 8:43:53 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: LTRsubNW quote: ORIGINAL: nefertari For those of us who have mental health issues or have a loved one with mental health issues, it is our fight. There is already a stigma and these cases just perpetuate it. We have to make others aware that this is not appropriate and is, in fact, detrimental to the mental health profession and those that suffer from those illnesses and their families. One example is paranoid schizophrenics being protrayed as violent in movies and on t.v. When in reality, a very, very low percentage of these people are actually violent; generally they are more of a danger to themselves than to others. You can't change them. But you can show them "you". (And what better way to prove them wrong). I understand what you are saying, but it's just not that simple. My daughter suffers from mental health and neurological issues. I have been battling for the last 4 years with the school and with others to get her the help she needs. The stigma even exists in the healthcare industry. For example, in Ohio psychiatric conditions are not covered the same as physiological conditions. One glaring example is schizophrenia. Schizophrenia and Parkinsons (I think it's Parkinsons - whichever one Michael J. Fox has) are both caused by the chemical dopamine in the brain. With schizophrenia, too much dopamine is created. With the other, not enough dopamine is created. They are both medical conditions. However, one is treated and covered by insurance as a mental illness and the other is treated as a physiological illness. The disparity is huge. For example, my health insurance only covers 20 mental health visits per year. That includes my daughter's therapist, psychiatrist and neuropsychiatrist. It doesn't even cover the Occupational Therapy at all. People need to be educated on these matters and allowing others to use it for their own benefit and in doing so perpetuating the stigma is not something we should just sit back and allow to happen.

MizSuz -> RE: committing a crime=bi-polar?!?! (10/15/2006 7:04:47 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: subbie12 What I am mainly looking for is feedback on the subject of the use of sudden declarations of mental illness especially bi-polar. Mental illness, addiction, diabetis, narcolepsy, epilepsy, cancer/treatments/ WHATEVER are all medical conditions (whether the insurance industry wants to support them or not). They all have physiological conditions and ramifications and therefore are health issues. Contrary to what the American Medical Association may have been marketing and spinning for generations (and we've largely bought into), the final responsibility for the management of our health (and the responsibility for the consequences of NOT managing our health) lay with the individual. "Because your doctor said so" is no better a reason for action than "because I don't trust them" is a reason for non-action. In the final analysis we as individuals are responsible for our health and, by extension, our behavior (even if we're sick). "Because I'm bi-polar (alcoholic, schizophrenic, depressed, sugar deprived, sugar soaked, in chronic pain, opiate dependent, WHATEVER)" does not negate responsibility. If anything it increases it. It's because our society still holds such stigma about these things that we see such wide pendulum swings in attitude; fearful ignorance or over-done empathizing, neither achieving the desired goal of successful social integration. We'll never be able to accept these things as illnesses until we hold those suffering with the afflictions accountable for their behavior to the same degree we would hold anyone else with a chronic illness responsible for the management of same. Yes, compassion should be the keystone, but that could be said of everyone. If a blind person got behind the wheel of a car and hurt someone, that blind person would be held accountable for doing that harm. Similarly, accepting responsibility for your actions when you have a medical condition that effects your behavior is an integral part of accepting responsibility for the management of same. The appropriate response to a defense attorney that says "but my client is bi-polar" is "I'm glad to hear that's he's getting medical attention (as a diagnosis seems to suggest), now let's get down to the issue at hand - the behavior."

MizSuz -> RE: committing a crime=bi-polar?!?! (10/15/2006 7:18:01 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: subbie12 I have a hard time accepting their claims and am offended that they would do this. It is like heaping another crime on top of the one they just got busted for. These are people who are supposed to be our advocates with the government! Amen. quote: ORIGINAL: subbie12 As a mental health patient that has always been open about her illness I have had to deal with peoples prejudices in an effort to educate people. Educating the public is an ongoing battle but it is something that must be done Sing it, sister! I hope you know you're not alone in this. quote: ORIGINAL: subbie12 I am outraged that people would stoop to using such an excuse for their horrible behavior! I know they don't care but, I do.. I do, too.

LTRsubNW -> RE: committing a crime=bi-polar?!?! (10/15/2006 5:04:34 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: MizSuz quote: ORIGINAL: subbie12 What I am mainly looking for is feedback on the subject of the use of sudden declarations of mental illness especially bi-polar. Mental illness, addiction, diabetis, narcolepsy, epilepsy, cancer/treatments/ WHATEVER are all medical conditions (whether the insurance industry wants to support them or not). They all have physiological conditions and ramifications and therefore are health issues. Contrary to what the American Medical Association may have been marketing and spinning for generations (and we've largely bought into), the final responsibility for the management of our health (and the responsibility for the consequences of NOT managing our health) lay with the individual. "Because your doctor said so" is no better a reason for action than "because I don't trust them" is a reason for non-action. In the final analysis we as individuals are responsible for our health and, by extension, our behavior (even if we're sick). "Because I'm bi-polar (alcoholic, schizophrenic, depressed, sugar deprived, sugar soaked, in chronic pain, opiate dependent, WHATEVER)" does not negate responsibility. If anything it increases it. It's because our society still holds such stigma about these things that we see such wide pendulum swings in attitude; fearful ignorance or over-done empathizing, neither achieving the desired goal of successful social integration. We'll never be able to accept these things as illnesses until we hold those suffering with the afflictions accountable for their behavior to the same degree we would hold anyone else with a chronic illness responsible for the management of same. Yes, compassion should be the keystone, but that could be said of everyone. If a blind person got behind the wheel of a car and hurt someone, that blind person would be held accountable for doing that harm. Similarly, accepting responsibility for your actions when you have a medical condition that effects your behavior is an integral part of accepting responsibility for the management of same. The appropriate response to a defense attorney that says "but my client is bi-polar" is "I'm glad to hear that's he's getting medical attention (as a diagnosis seems to suggest), now let's get down to the issue at hand - the behavior." (Ya know...you write well).

SlaveAkasha -> RE: committing a crime=bi-polar?!?! (10/15/2006 5:39:19 PM)
I am bi-polar, have PTSD, severe depression, and a personality disorder. I have never hurt anyone, and don't think I ever will. I am more likely to turn the stuff on myself, that's where the cutting came in. It's not an exuse for hurting someone, or for bad behavior. If you aren't willing to take your meds and do something about it, then you should have to pay for what you do wrong in the process. I am not on meds, and don't plan to be.. but if things do get bad, I will admit it and allow myself to go on them. I hate to lose my personality like I did before, and just walk around not feeling everything that I get to feel with what I have. Please don't take that wrong, but along with feeling the bad things so deeply, comes feeling the pleasure that way also. If I am ever going to harm someone, or do drastic harm to myself though, I will do what it takes to make it stop, even meds. Akasha

juliaoceania -> RE: committing a crime=bi-polar?!?! (10/15/2006 8:24:17 PM)
Although it is not an excuse to commit a crime there may well be reasons for what we do and how we behave that have biochemical roots. Even if we find that someone has a mental condition that contributed to the commission of their crime we still have to protect the public from criminals. What I see as a danger is that we dismiss the claims that certain personality disorders and neurosis can indeed be a reason for criminality. I would think that the more mentally healthy we were as a society and the more emotionally balanced we may become the less crime we may have. So in my opinion it is not ok to try to get away with things because a person is mental, but we should study the biological roots of criminality so we can perhaps one day stop it before it even happens... Just one opinon

FangsNfeet -> RE: committing a crime=bi-polar?!?! (10/15/2006 9:28:42 PM)
I don't care what mental or chemical embalance there is. The bottom line is responibility. Know the problem, admit that you need to fix it, and take your damn pills. If you decide to stop taking your medication and become a threat to society, then you need to be locked up. Being crazy is not an excuse to roam free. It's a reason to be confined or put down. It's interesting how people are found "Not Guilty by Reason of Insanity" Does that mean that you are guilty of being insane? That means that you need to be locked up and have the key not only thrown away, but melted in lava.

MizSuz -> RE: committing a crime=bi-polar?!?! (10/16/2006 9:25:06 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: SlaveAkasha I am not on meds, and don't plan to be.. but if things do get bad, I will admit it and allow myself to go on them. I hate to lose my personality like I did before, and just walk around not feeling everything that I get to feel with what I have. Please don't take that wrong, but along with feeling the bad things so deeply, comes feeling the pleasure that way also. If I am ever going to harm someone, or do drastic harm to myself though, I will do what it takes to make it stop, even meds. Akasha I've been bi polar for a very long time. For a long time I was misdiagnosed and improperly treated, leading to an exacerbation of my condition. Then I got a good diagnosis (once conventional medicine decided to get on board with the whole 'type 2' thing) and, having watched people I care a great deal for disrupt their lives repetitively with the on and off the meds/ in and out of therapy thing, I did a lot of research for doctors who would work with me to achieve my goals. Among my goals is a full spectrum of emotion and I'm pretty happy to say that I achieved it. It was hard, though. I won't lie about that. Finding the right meds, then the right doses, can be extremely difficult and can require a considerable amount of dedication. It is doable, though - at least for me it was. Meds aren't for everyone, I understand that. If you're able to monitor yourself well enough to provide your own intervention then you're 10 steps ahead of the average and have the bulk of the problem licked. Lots people spend many, many years learning that skill.

LadyEllen -> RE: committing a crime=bi-polar?!?! (10/16/2006 10:09:10 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: FangsNfeet I don't care what mental or chemical embalance there is. The bottom line is responibility. Know the problem, admit that you need to fix it, and take your damn pills. If you decide to stop taking your medication and become a threat to society, then you need to be locked up. Being crazy is not an excuse to roam free. It's a reason to be confined or put down. It's interesting how people are found "Not Guilty by Reason of Insanity" Does that mean that you are guilty of being insane? That means that you need to be locked up and have the key not only thrown away, but melted in lava. Wow. I hope you never suffer from a condition that makes you think and act irrationally. Either that, or I hope you were making some ill conceived attempt at humour? "Not guilty by reason of insanity", does not mean "not guilty, you can go free", believe it or not. It means you end up in some secure hospital for treatment, because although you did the deed, you didnt do it with the level of rational thought as to what you were doing and its effects, that a normal person might exhibit. In the UK at least, such a verdict usually results in a custodial sentence for the crime, but in such a secure hospital for treatment, that is the same (often longer) one would have received in a normal prison as punishment. E

SlaveAkasha -> RE: committing a crime=bi-polar?!?! (10/16/2006 11:33:03 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: MizSuz quote: ORIGINAL: SlaveAkasha I am not on meds, and don't plan to be.. but if things do get bad, I will admit it and allow myself to go on them. I hate to lose my personality like I did before, and just walk around not feeling everything that I get to feel with what I have. Please don't take that wrong, but along with feeling the bad things so deeply, comes feeling the pleasure that way also. If I am ever going to harm someone, or do drastic harm to myself though, I will do what it takes to make it stop, even meds. Akasha I've been bi polar for a very long time. For a long time I was misdiagnosed and improperly treated, leading to an exacerbation of my condition. Then I got a good diagnosis (once conventional medicine decided to get on board with the whole 'type 2' thing) and, having watched people I care a great deal for disrupt their lives repetitively with the on and off the meds/ in and out of therapy thing, I did a lot of research for doctors who would work with me to achieve my goals. Among my goals is a full spectrum of emotion and I'm pretty happy to say that I achieved it. It was hard, though. I won't lie about that. Finding the right meds, then the right doses, can be extremely difficult and can require a considerable amount of dedication. It is doable, though - at least for me it was. Meds aren't for everyone, I understand that. If you're able to monitor yourself well enough to provide your own intervention then you're 10 steps ahead of the average and have the bulk of the problem licked. Lots people spend many, many years learning that skill. I am still learning, and yes, like you, it's taken me a very long time. There are still days when I feel the whole world hates me, and that I am all alone. There are days when I don't want to get out of bed, and days I might still want to cut. When that happens though, I sit down and read, listen to music, or sometimes I even just spend the day in bed and let it pass. I haven't cut in a very long time, and I refuse to ever go back to it. As long as I can control this without meds, I will. I do admit though, that the day may come when I can't anymore, and I am not too proud to admit it. I will go to a therapist, and hope I can find one that will work with me, like yours did you. When it starts interfering with my everyday life, and with my loved ones, then I will know it's time to look into meds again. Now, just a day in bed, or a couple good cries will take care of it. I hope no one took that it's simple from that, because it's anything but. It's hard work, and can get very tiring.. but right now, it does work for me fine. I have been very open with my Master about what I have, and he knows I will do anything it takes to live a "normal" life. He loves me and supports me regardless, and sometimes thats better than any meds in the world. Akasha

FangsNfeet -> RE: committing a crime=bi-polar?!?! (10/16/2006 4:49:30 PM)
Prisons have hospitals with doctors, nurses, and psych staff. Why can't they just go to prison and get treatment there while serving there time? When you are deemed curued, keep serving untill your time is up.

SlaveAkasha -> RE: committing a crime=bi-polar?!?! (10/16/2006 5:12:21 PM)
I will say that though I don't think anyone should get off from doing a crime by having bi-polar as a reason, I wonder how many people have any idea what a state mental hospital is like. We aren't talking one of those nice and comfy places the celebrities go with problems, we are talking a place that is cold, isolated, medicated, and scarier than crap. While I don't think that is for sure enough punishment for someone, I can see how going there would screw someone up a lot more than spending a couple of years in prison might. Akasha

FangsNfeet -> RE: committing a crime=bi-polar?!?! (10/16/2006 6:56:39 PM)
Texas State Asylum in Rusk TX is no picknic. As long as the Crazy Dangerous people are locked up, then I'm okay. Using bipolarism as a reason to commit crimes is like a dyslexic saying a car wreck wasn't his fault because his condition mistook a 121 exit as a speed limit sign.

Saratov -> RE: committing a crime=bi-polar?!?! (10/16/2006 7:48:16 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: FangsNfeet Prisons have hospitals with doctors, nurses, and psych staff. Why can't they just go to prison and get treatment there while serving there time? When you are deemed curued, keep serving untill your time is up. Bi-Polar is like (certain types of)PTSD in that one isn't 'cured' it's permanent, treatment for the rest of the persons life. One problem that some bi-polar folks have is that they take their meds, get to feeling good, after a while they 'feel' cured and stop taking their meds... start having problems again... and the cycle starts again.

nefertari -> RE: committing a crime=bi-polar?!?! (10/16/2006 8:56:16 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: FangsNfeet Texas State Asylum in Rusk TX is no picknic. As long as the Crazy Dangerous people are locked up, then I'm okay. Using bipolarism as a reason to commit crimes is like a dyslexic saying a car wreck wasn't his fault because his condition mistook a 121 exit as a speed limit sign. A person that is bipolar can have psychotic episodes where they truly aren't of rational mind. I've read that it takes on average 10 years for a person with bipolar disorder to be diagnosed. And that is for someone actively seeking help. Then, it is not uncommon to take years to get the med combination just right. So, no it is nothing at all like a "dyslexic saying a car wreck wasn't his fault because his condition mistook a 121 exit as a speed limit sign". There are times when a not guilty by reason of insanity is entirely appropriate and times when it is just being used to avoid taking responsibility. My complaint is for those that "use" the diagnosis of a mental illness to excuse their behavior. If one is in such bad condition as to be committing criminal acts because of their illness, then other people would be noticing that something was not quite right with that person. It makes it harder for those who truly do struggle with mental illness to function in a society that stigmatizes them.

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