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Bleuprint for Britain; 2 Education & Skills - 10/16/2006 7:33:57 AM   
LadyEllen


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Joined: 6/30/2006
From: Stourport-England
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This is second in the series. All proposals in this post are meant to form a package and all posts in the series to form a greater package.

Comment and critique is welcomed.

1) NATIONAL CURRICULUM AND SATs
The National Curriculum will be freed from strict controls, to give teachers the flexibility they need to provide education rather than as now to provide for the requirements of tests. Testing will now be carried out within schools only and the league tables will be done away with, since they do not measure like for like due to the wide, natural variations between schools. Teachers will be assessed, rather than the children whom they teach, with bonuses paid to teachers who improve the average performance of their whole class, rather than to teachers who produce the highest number of test parrots.

2) SCHOOL PLACES
There will no longer be the fiasco of trying to get your child into the "best" state school. Instead, each child will be allocated a place in the nearest school according to the area where they live. This policy removes the obscenity of the wealthiest parents monopolising on the best schools by various expensive and sometimes duplicitous means, leaving the poorest parents with no choice but the worst schools - a process which inevitably leads to the best schools getting better and the worst schools worse, because of the social and academic polarisation it breeds. It must be understood from the outset of life, that this nation is a collective activity in which all are valuable, all have their place and without one, the rest of us may fall.

3) POST 13 OPTIONS
All children will receive the same state education until age 13. At 13, all children must continue with English, Maths and RE (renamed Cultural Awareness and incorporating a citizenship agenda). Children will be given the choice of then following a path towards a certified tradeskill or a path with a more academic style. This will enable those not of an academic bent, to achieve highly and to leave school with useful skills for use in the workforce, as well as enabling those wishing to pursue academia to push ahead in this. Both groups will remain in the same school. Those pursuing a tradeskill will also be expected to continue with education in the likes of computer use, history, general science, life skills/personal finance and geography. There must be no suggestion whatever that tradeskills are lesser in importance or challenge - this measure is intended to resolve the current problem in schools of disconnect for those less academically able who presently leave school no better off for it, due to their disinterest in academia. There is a future and a place for all of our children, and the plain fact is we do not need thousands of students of media studies, but we do need tradespeople. We also have a dearth of engineers and scientists because of the current pressure towards gaining high academic qualifications - resulting in the choosing of "easier" subjects at age 14. However, the choice of which path to pursue, will and must always remain with the children - there will be no selection by aptitude.

4) REPEAT STUDIES OPTIONS/OBLIGATIONS
Children may choose to remain in school post 16 for up to two more years, if they would like to receive further education in subjects which for whatever reason, they did not succeed in previously - both academic and tradeskills. Children who have not achieved at least grade C at GCSE English and Maths, will be obliged to remain in school for up to two more years, and thereafter to attend evening classes at adult college until they have so achieved, unless there is agreement by qualified professionals that due to some medical/psychological condition, they are unable to achieve this.

5) UNIVERSITY AND FURTHER EDUCATION
Further education will be taxpayer funded for those studying subjects required to fill skills gaps in the economy. Full funding will also be given to those studying as working adults for higher qualifications that will meet skill gaps in the economy. This will apply particularly in relation to teaching, science, engineering and all tradeskills as of this time, though this list will change over time. For other studies, in areas where there is a lower skills gap, the student will be expected to make a contribution from 10% up to 100% of course costs, depending on the degree of skillsgap. All such funding arrangements will be reviewed on a five year basis. Once a student begins a course then the funding arrangement will be maintained as is until they finish it - within a set period, except in the case when taxpayer funding increases for a subject, when the student will accrue the new funding arrangement by way of a lower personal funding obligation.

Further education facilities will also be expected to provide full courses in tradeskills studies.

Given the above funding of certain courses, those benefitting from this funding will be expected to live and work within the UK for 5 to 10 years minimum (dependent on funding), post qualification, in order than the economy receives the benefit of its investment.

6) EDUCATIONAL CULTURE
English will be the only language in which education is delivered, with Welsh and Gaelic also made available according to local preference. Children may select a language of their cultural origin at 13 if they wish to do so, but we will not have education delivered in Urdu/Hindi et al any longer, in order that the polarisation and volunteer apartheid such a situation produces, is ended. All children will also be educated in British history and citizenship as part of their Cultural Awarenss studies. It is not acceptable for schools to be reinforcing a ghetto mindset - rather they should be enforcing a British mindset to breed commonality between groups not division. If children have poor English when they start school, then after school English tuition will be provided free of charge such that they are able to achieve a good standard for the purposes of following lessons. This will also be applicable to faith schools.

DESIRED RESULTS
All children receive the best education for them, based on their own abilities and importantly, aspirations.
All children achieve a minimum standard of education before entering the workforce as adults.
All children are provided with the education and training they need to play a full part in society and function within it.
Achievement in the world becomes a possibility and importantly is perceived as a possibility for all, regardless of background.
Further education to increase one's skills and knowledge is no longer a demotivating drain on personal and family resources.
The economy is supplied with motivated and qualified people coming into all areas of work every year.
We begin to reverse and greatly minimise the number of people socially isloated by lack of the skills and knowledge to participate.

FUNDING
These measures will obviously cost a lot of money at the outset - particularly the full and partial funding of university courses for required skillsets. However, they will also pay for themselves, in terms of greater national productivity, greater efficiency and higher tax revenues from the increased activity. Not to mention in terms of the savings to be made from not having a percentage of the population reliant on social benefits payments, but instead active in the economy. In a subsequent post, employment issues will also be dealt with, such that those able to participate will do so - we cannot afford to enable participation only for those so enabled to choose a life on benefits. Given the time period which will elapse from the first year of funded courses through to those students becoming productive members of society, funding should be planned for five years - and this will be derived from other measures to be announced in future posts in relation to employment and taxation, but the money is there for this.






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RE: Bleuprint for Britain; 2 Education & Skills - 10/16/2006 8:15:04 AM   
Archer


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Joined: 3/11/2005
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School places

Schools selected by closestto the home, has been set here in the US for decades and is an utter failure.
The segregation by income still happens, it happens because the wealthy will tend to move to places where they are with other wealthy families willing to pay the higher taxes to afford their chilren the best in public schooling.

This also tends to happen when a school shows promise, a good school will raise the rents and home prices by significant levels. Thus the wealthy move in because they can afford the costs and the poor do not because they cant afford the rents in that district.

Post 13 Options, I have little trouble with this other than no selection by aptitude. I would rather they simply use the test scores and evaluated aptitude to offer the options, much the way the US military does for selecting MOS schools, Score a 75 and these options are open, score a 85 and all those options for 75 + these additional ones are open, ...

Skills Gap courses, I would have to see the frequency of reviewing the gaps, as well as projecting the future gaps. I know that we experienced a problem with peopleflocking to a projected gap where pay was high, only to discover that the industry was orking itself out of the market.
Telecom workers being the prime example.
I recall a time when someone knowing fiber optic cable installation and such could write their own ticket, however, the crash came later when the large part of the infrastructure was completed and suddenly the demand for them dropped like a rock. The question of how to avoid that remains.





(in reply to LadyEllen)
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RE: Bleuprint for Britain; 2 Education & Skills - 10/16/2006 8:48:26 AM   
meatcleaver


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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyEllen

This is second in the series. All proposals in this post are meant to form a package and all posts in the series to form a greater package.

Comment and critique is welcomed.

1) NATIONAL CURRICULUM AND SATs
The National Curriculum will be freed from strict controls, to give teachers the flexibility they need to provide education rather than as now to provide for the requirements of tests. Testing will now be carried out within schools only and the league tables will be done away with, since they do not measure like for like due to the wide, natural variations between schools. Teachers will be assessed, rather than the children whom they teach, with bonuses paid to teachers who improve the average performance of their whole class, rather than to teachers who produce the highest number of test parrots.

The national curriculum and testing in my eyes has been a disaster in educational terms. Children are stuffed with facts without a good foundation of understanding the subject being teached and it's also stiffled creative teachers and taken the joy out of teaching. If the teacher doesn't feel their job is rewarding it is doubtful the children will finding learning rewarding either. I've got to admit, I'm all for going back to real education rather than the pseudo-education that has been implimented over the last 20 years where children are educated for life rather than for work.

2) SCHOOL PLACES
There will no longer be the fiasco of trying to get your child into the "best" state school. Instead, each child will be allocated a place in the nearest school according to the area where they live. This policy removes the obscenity of the wealthiest parents monopolising on the best schools by various expensive and sometimes duplicitous means, leaving the poorest parents with no choice but the worst schools - a process which inevitably leads to the best schools getting better and the worst schools worse, because of the social and academic polarisation it breeds. It must be understood from the outset of life, that this nation is a collective activity in which all are valuable, all have their place and without one, the rest of us may fall.

Mixed social backgrounds is a must in my book and anything that creates it has to be a good thing. The middleclasses bring the right attitude to education, supporting the school and keeping the pressure on the teachers to make the school perform well. It is also necessary for a cohesive society. It also informs the children from poorer backgrounds that the middleclasses aren't their because they are smarter but because they play the system and learning to play the social system is as important at getting on as having agood education. That's what it taught me anyway.

3) POST 13 OPTIONS
All children will receive the same state education until age 13. At 13, all children must continue with English, Maths and RE (renamed Cultural Awareness and incorporating a citizenship agenda). Children will be given the choice of then following a path towards a certified tradeskill or a path with a more academic style. This will enable those not of an academic bent, to achieve highly and to leave school with useful skills for use in the workforce, as well as enabling those wishing to pursue academia to push ahead in this. Both groups will remain in the same school. Those pursuing a tradeskill will also be expected to continue with education in the likes of computer use, history, general science, life skills/personal finance and geography. There must be no suggestion whatever that tradeskills are lesser in importance or challenge - this measure is intended to resolve the current problem in schools of disconnect for those less academically able who presently leave school no better off for it, due to their disinterest in academia. There is a future and a place for all of our children, and the plain fact is we do not need thousands of students of media studies, but we do need tradespeople. We also have a dearth of engineers and scientists because of the current pressure towards gaining high academic qualifications - resulting in the choosing of "easier" subjects at age 14. However, the choice of which path to pursue, will and must always remain with the children - there will be no selection by aptitude.

Empahsis on academic education being better than a more practical education should be made a thing of the past. Which seems a bit of a contradiction to what I said earlier about children being educated and not trained for work but practical education doesn't necessarily mean training. Practical education in Germany is second to none and is one of the reasons they have such good production values and engineers have far more respect in Germany than Britain, we need some of that. When the old apprenticeships were part of industry many young people started out on a practical level before working their way up to University and brought a greater understanding to their subjects than students straight out of school.

4) REPEAT STUDIES OPTIONS/OBLIGATIONS
Children may choose to remain in school post 16 for up to two more years, if they would like to receive further education in subjects which for whatever reason, they did not succeed in previously - both academic and tradeskills. Children who have not achieved at least grade C at GCSE English and Maths, will be obliged to remain in school for up to two more years, and thereafter to attend evening classes at adult college until they have so achieved, unless there is agreement by qualified professionals that due to some medical/psychological condition, they are unable to achieve this.

Passes in individual subjects should be done away with and diplomas given out for graduating in all subjects to a high enough level and repeating a year should be compulsory to those children that fail.

5) UNIVERSITY AND FURTHER EDUCATION
Further education will be taxpayer funded for those studying subjects required to fill skills gaps in the economy. Full funding will also be given to those studying as working adults for higher qualifications that will meet skill gaps in the economy. This will apply particularly in relation to teaching, science, engineering and all tradeskills as of this time, though this list will change over time. For other studies, in areas where there is a lower skills gap, the student will be expected to make a contribution from 10% up to 100% of course costs, depending on the degree of skillsgap. All such funding arrangements will be reviewed on a five year basis. Once a student begins a course then the funding arrangement will be maintained as is until they finish it - within a set period, except in the case when taxpayer funding increases for a subject, when the student will accrue the new funding arrangement by way of a lower personal funding obligation.

Further education facilities will also be expected to provide full courses in tradeskills studies.

Given the above funding of certain courses, those benefitting from this funding will be expected to live and work within the UK for 5 to 10 years minimum (dependent on funding), post qualification, in order than the economy receives the benefit of its investment.

I'm all for graduates paying an education tax once working. There are so many graduates now that degrees have been devalued and many graduates won't earn as much as tradesmen which is why a tax would be fair as you will pay a percentage of your income. That won't cripple graduates of the arts and it won't unfairly hit graduates in subjects that can command a high salary.

6) EDUCATIONAL CULTURE
English will be the only language in which education is delivered, with Welsh and Gaelic also made available according to local preference. Children may select a language of their cultural origin at 13 if they wish to do so, but we will not have education delivered in Urdu/Hindi et al any longer, in order that the polarisation and volunteer apartheid such a situation produces, is ended. All children will also be educated in British history and citizenship as part of their Cultural Awarenss studies. It is not acceptable for schools to be reinforcing a ghetto mindset - rather they should be enforcing a British mindset to breed commonality between groups not division. If children have poor English when they start school, then after school English tuition will be provided free of charge such that they are able to achieve a good standard for the purposes of following lessons. This will also be applicable to faith schools.

All children should begin to learn a European or other important language (Chinese, Japanese etc) at junior school, the earlier the better.


FUNDING

Funding for quality education has to be found, there is no alternative. There are enough holy cows that money is wasted on where money can be found and if it can't then there is tax. Most people agree that tax for education is a good thing, it is because people don't trust the politicians and suspect the tax will be used on a holy cow that make many people against tax hikes. 

(in reply to LadyEllen)
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RE: Bleuprint for Britain; 2 Education & Skills - 10/16/2006 10:16:51 AM   
philosophy


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"I have little trouble with this other than no selection by aptitude. I would rather they simply use the test scores and evaluated aptitude to offer the options, much the way the US military does for selecting MOS schools, Score a 75 and these options are open, score a 85 and all those options for 75 + these additional ones are open, ... "

.....the danger with this is that we freeze our expectations of children based on how they perform on tests taken up to the age of 13. It effectively treats children as classes of beings as opposed to individuals. All education ought to be child-centred, and not all children begin to show their potential before the age of 13......indeed some children fall back significently after that age due to issues such as ABI, which often only shows up later as different brain structures mature.

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RE: Bleuprint for Britain; 2 Education & Skills - 10/16/2006 10:37:23 AM   
Archer


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I'd have no problem with testing aptitude several times, and allowing shifts as aptitude permits, but without any aptitude testing at all we end up with people without the aptitude to learn a subject holding back students with the aptitude How we handle that is up for proposals.

HEre we have guidance councilors who will discuss aptitude with the parent and if its a close call a parent can open up the option but lets say a fictitious person here has grades in the C range for on level subjects to that point and testing has shown no aptitude. Are we going to permit them to enter Trig during their 8th grade (app 13 years old) when they have shown no apitude for math thus far?

It's a tricky question when looking at the big picture of a school wide/ district wide/ state, or national education program.

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RE: Bleuprint for Britain; 2 Education & Skills - 10/16/2006 10:57:07 AM   
darkinshadows


Posts: 4145
Joined: 6/2/2004
From: UK
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quote:

1) NATIONAL CURRICULUM AND SATs
The National Curriculum will be freed from strict controls, to give teachers the flexibility they need to provide education rather than as now to provide for the requirements of tests. Testing will now be carried out within schools only and the league tables will be done away with, since they do not measure like for like due to the wide, natural variations between schools. Teachers will be assessed, rather than the children whom they teach, with bonuses paid to teachers who improve the average performance of their whole class, rather than to teachers who produce the highest number of test parrots.


Wouldnt work.  To persecute teachers for failing students, or class performances is not productive.  You cannot reward teachers like you can reward managers in a business.  Apart from the fact that the best teachers will try and be able to get into the higher achieving schools and would not bother applying for schools where classes were failing, and thus this would perpetuate the continuous decline of failing schools.

quote:

2) SCHOOL PLACES
There will no longer be the fiasco of trying to get your child into the "best" state school. Instead, each child will be allocated a place in the nearest school according to the area where they live. This policy removes the obscenity of the wealthiest parents monopolising on the best schools by various expensive and sometimes duplicitous means, leaving the poorest parents with no choice but the worst schools - a process which inevitably leads to the best schools getting better and the worst schools worse, because of the social and academic polarisation it breeds. It must be understood from the outset of life, that this nation is a collective activity in which all are valuable, all have their place and without one, the rest of us may fall.



It certainly would NOT remove the obsenity - it would make it worse!  Plus you will cause house price rises and effectively pricing out the poor and lower earning people from areas.  It is in effect, segregatting 'classes'
This actually happens already in state schools - when actually it should be the other way around.  You live within a certain area, you are offered a place at the local school.  You only gain a place in another school if all the places are filled by area and siblings and then its a as the crow flies placement.
I watched a programme discussing the merits of busing children into areas to get them attending schools which they would never get to attend otherwise.  Right now you have the position where the poorer areas do have the lower achieving schools and the children are not given the chance to thrive in a more productive area.  Yes, parents do lie on forms... I have seen it done.  But restricting pupils to areas is bias.  Just means the people who can afford to move will move and the people who can't, getting the leftovers.
 
But then - if you are planning on making all schools equal, it would not matter where the children attend - would it?
 
quote:

3) POST 13 OPTIONS
All children will receive the same state education until age 13. At 13, all children must continue with English, Maths and RE (renamed Cultural Awareness and incorporating a citizenship agenda). Children will be given the choice of then following a path towards a certified tradeskill or a path with a more academic style. This will enable those not of an academic bent, to achieve highly and to leave school with useful skills for use in the workforce, as well as enabling those wishing to pursue academia to push ahead in this. Both groups will remain in the same school. Those pursuing a tradeskill will also be expected to continue with education in the likes of computer use, history, general science, life skills/personal finance and geography. There must be no suggestion whatever that tradeskills are lesser in importance or challenge - this measure is intended to resolve the current problem in schools of disconnect for those less academically able who presently leave school no better off for it, due to their disinterest in academia. There is a future and a place for all of our children, and the plain fact is we do not need thousands of students of media studies, but we do need tradespeople. We also have a dearth of engineers and scientists because of the current pressure towards gaining high academic qualifications - resulting in the choosing of "easier" subjects at age 14. However, the choice of which path to pursue, will and must always remain with the children - there will be no selection by aptitude.


Why RE?  - Pointless.  PSE yes, but not RE.  I would seriously question ANY school placing RE as one of the top three must do's.  Would be interested on why you chose this subject.
Citizenship Agenda?  -  sounds scarey... seriously.  Citizenship awareness yes... but not agenda.  I was in contact with a parent whos school taught the history of asian culture during world war II and the efect it had on britain and how important it was to the war effort.  This gave the asian studants the understanding of how important their culture was and gave them a sense of belonging in the history of the UK.  It gave them both a place and a purpose and dissipated the segregation.
 
And you haven't even mentioned sport throught the entire list - where does that come on your Blueprint?
And what are your thoughts on specialist schools... how do you work those into the equasion?  Will you remove the funding for that and how would you replace it and what would you replace it with?
 
Peace and Rapture

< Message edited by darkinshadows -- 10/16/2006 11:04:17 AM >


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RE: Bleuprint for Britain; 2 Education & Skills - 10/16/2006 11:01:57 AM   
darkinshadows


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I just wanted to clarify the mention of specialist schools.
I am not refering to those with 'special needs'(I loathe that term)...
 
I am refering to those schools that are now classed and given extra funding because they centre on a specific area.
Specialist business schools.... specialist sports.... technical colleges... Most Senoir schools in the UK adopt a specialist subject and are giving extra funding for that... it is a way of earning more revenue into the school.
 
Peace and Rapture


_____________________________


.dark.




...i surrender to gravity and the unknown...

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RE: Bleuprint for Britain; 2 Education & Skills - 10/16/2006 11:35:40 AM   
seeksfemslave


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The emphasis on academic excellence is in my opinion totally misplaced, I refer mainly to the humanities sociology and politics.
Its these academic nitwitownions who have got us into the current mess !

Public schools should be phased out.

Comprehensive schools re established and operated as was originally envisaged, not as corrupted by the left leaning academics.

Children should be treated as such and made to realise that they need to learn first and not be led to believe that they already know anything worth knowing. Leave that role to misguided parents.

Students at University level should be expected to contribute in some way via taxes later in life. A good mark for Blair here.

The reality of what teaching can achieve, or not, is shown by the legendary poor linguistic skills of the average Brit., many of whom have studied a foreign language for 5 years, or did when I was a nipper.

Apart from that I dont think we've got too much to worry about lol The ship of state is sliding gracefully below the waves.

Almost forgot, Lady E spends too much time thinking about politics !

We dont send people to prison soon enough and keep them there long enough....err err what next, multi culturalism doesn't work. err err Roy Hattersley is a 4xer, err err nobody listens to me.err err that Reading footballer deliberately kneed the Chelsea goalkeeper, we need more plumbers electricians builders technicians of all kinds and people who think the way I do.

Sod it I say.

(in reply to darkinshadows)
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RE: Bleuprint for Britain; 2 Education & Skills - 10/16/2006 11:51:54 AM   
kisshou


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Hiya LadyEllen,

I can only compare this to where I live (Florida) where we struggle with the same issues.

Without tests how you will you evaluate if the average performance has improved? What basis will teacher's be evaluated on? #1 sounds very vague.

#2 I see many above me have addressed this, I live in a county that has just ended bussing due to race/economic diversity. With that we had children spendings 2-3 hours on a bus per day also for working parents trying to attend awards, conferences or volunteer at the school the bussing made it impossible. However now the wealthier kids are better off because as a whole their parents donate more time and money to the individual schools that they attend.

Our brand new local high school has the same option as #3, they call them 'academies' there are both career and college based ones. There is also mandatory group counseling that focuses on staying in school and getting help with problems. It has been very successful so far.

#4 To recieve a high school diploma here you must successfully pass the FCAT exam besides fulfilling course requirements. This is basic level math and reading skills test.

#5 our lotto (lottery) money goes to Bright Futures , alot of people complain but I think it has been successful in funding college educations.

I had no idea people actually used Welsh and Gaelic for everyday use. That first sentence made no sense since there are two exceptions. Where I live everything is in English and Spanish , alot of things are also in Creole.

I am wondering where music, sports, art and theatre fit in with this educational plan?

kisshou

(in reply to LadyEllen)
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RE: Bleuprint for Britain; 2 Education & Skills - 10/16/2006 11:54:53 AM   
LadyEllen


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Hi Seeks - yes I do spend a lot of time thinking about politics - too much time in fact (I have far too much time on my hands!). Although the point of these threads wasnt just for me to stand on a soapbox - it was partly to try to get Signor Napolitano to engage on some subject other than his pet themes! He and I (I believe) want the same results - but if all we're going to do is stand up and rant about how good/bad things are, without putting forward some thought out policies, (which might be wrong, but thats OK as long as theyre thought out!), then where does that get us except for round and round in circles?

Still, I think the first one went down well, didnt it?

But the main point of this is to get debates and ideas going in the end. I'm enjoying reading the responses - especially the ones highlighting problems in my proposals, which are really useful and valid.

E

_____________________________

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RE: Bleuprint for Britain; 2 Education & Skills - 10/16/2006 12:05:12 PM   
darkinshadows


Posts: 4145
Joined: 6/2/2004
From: UK
Status: offline
quote:

6) EDUCATIONAL CULTURE
English will be the only language in which education is delivered, with Welsh and Gaelic also made available according to local preference. Children may select a language of their cultural origin at 13 if they wish to do so, but we will not have education delivered in Urdu/Hindi et al any longer, in order that the polarisation and volunteer apartheid such a situation produces, is ended. All children will also be educated in British history and citizenship as part of their Cultural Awarenss studies. It is not acceptable for schools to be reinforcing a ghetto mindset - rather they should be enforcing a British mindset to breed commonality between groups not division. If children have poor English when they start school, then after school English tuition will be provided free of charge such that they are able to achieve a good standard for the purposes of following lessons. This will also be applicable to faith schools.

And what about Cornish?  I believe that if you are going to allow local languages it should include all (I do realise that you did try and encompass 'local preference').  I think it is vital that with the british history, that all pupils...including those that are white, be taught the history of what all cultures within britain contributed to the war effort.  I think this instils a sense of belonging by showing pupils that it wasn't just a 'white fought' war... that grandparents of all ethnic background fought to keep the UK 'free' and helps end segregation.  There is an awful amount of 'left out history' from both a cultural and sexual orientation point of view.  We are only just getting to grips recently with the effect women had on the war effort, let alone ethnic groups.
 
Peace and Rapture
 
*edit to add... I am not meaning to be picky... but there is something rather ironic about a post on education when the titles mispelled
...... couldnt resist...


< Message edited by darkinshadows -- 10/16/2006 12:09:20 PM >


_____________________________


.dark.




...i surrender to gravity and the unknown...

(in reply to LadyEllen)
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RE: Bleuprint for Britain; 2 Education & Skills - 10/16/2006 12:26:10 PM   
LadyEllen


Posts: 10931
Joined: 6/30/2006
From: Stourport-England
Status: offline
Hi Archer - thanks for contributing

quote:

ORIGINAL: Archer

School places

Schools selected by closestto the home, has been set here in the US for decades and is an utter failure.
The segregation by income still happens, it happens because the wealthy will tend to move to places where they are with other wealthy families willing to pay the higher taxes to afford their chilren the best in public schooling.

This is something where my experience is lacking I think, probably because I come from and have only experienced the system of, a small town (60,000 people). We have three high schools; one is the pet high school - it gets everything going, one is pretty average and the third is a run down school that gets nothing (not even paint/curtains), which is the one I went to. The paint/curtains thing BTW is true - my first parents night there, my mom nearly fainted as the decor was the same as when she attended there, and twenty years later when my sister went - the same!
 
The odd thing about this, is that the pet school gets the best grades, and the run down one gets the worst - and yet all three receive funding from the same mechanism and at least in the UK, the tax funding is drawn from all according to one system of tax that does not ringfence any proportion to education. In theory therefore, all three schools should receive the same funding and facilities and achieve equally for their pupils. But its obviously not happening that way - and your point applies to the UK too and my town too. The fact is, that the pet school is in the wealthiest area with very few poorer families sending their children there, even if geographical catchments were used. Meanwhile, the run down school serves two out of the three worst areas of the town for social benefit reliance, if we moved to strict catchment areas.
 
This is then, something overlooked in my proposals and must be looked at, such that schools do all receive equitable funding and facilities, regardless of location, and more importantly that all schools receive a social mix to avoid the issue of one school benefitting from parental financial support over and above others. In my town, this would not be difficult to achieve as the place isnt that big to start with - a few redrawn lines on the catchment area map would do this. But I do not claim to know every school in every town, so this would have to be looked at properly. Whats important is, that there is a mix of children at all schools, and no them and us mentality.

This also tends to happen when a school shows promise, a good school will raise the rents and home prices by significant levels. Thus the wealthy move in because they can afford the costs and the poor do not because they cant afford the rents in that district.

True, but this happens in the UK now, where parents move into an area a year or so before their children hit high school age, so they can have easier access to a good school. I think this will happen whatever we do, apart from if we work to make all schools equally good through ensuring fair funding and fair mix of pupils.

In addition, if we start moving away from the concept of the number of A grades in academic subjects as the measure of quality of a school, towards a wider curriculum including tradeskills, then I believe we will have more or less equally achieving schools. At the moment, the poorer schools are only poorer because they produce few students achieving top academic marks - presumably because they have a high proportion of students who would achieve in tradeskills subjects, which once introduced would balance the books, so to speak.


Post 13 Options, I have little trouble with this other than no selection by aptitude. I would rather they simply use the test scores and evaluated aptitude to offer the options, much the way the US military does for selecting MOS schools, Score a 75 and these options are open, score a 85 and all those options for 75 + these additional ones are open, ...

This is an excellent idea. I shy away from pure aptitude testing, because it tends to dismiss children at an early age, when perhaps their aptitudes are not well developed as yet, and also tends to rely on a single test on a single day. Historically in the UK we had the 11+ exam and the view in those days the intention of this was to decide who was suited to academia and who wasnt. There should have been no shame in being on either side of this, but it was nevertheless the case that one could pass or fail this exam. Passing meant grammar school - the best state education. Failing meant secondary modern - second best for people more or less written off as "factory fodder" and "shop girls". This is why strict aptitude tests could never again be used in that manner - too many people were written off. 
 
It would require some sophistication to decide on options that would be opened up according to score - but that can be done these days. There would also have to be regular testing - meaning a reintroduction of the testing I would prefer to dispense with! There should also be practical skills testing - ie this should not be purely academic. I will say that I am academic - but when my car's broken down, all my qualifications in this and that will help me how much exactly!? In short, we must not allow such tests to be narrowed to academia and we must not have such tests become a pressure to pass - I would fail any tradeskills test after all, so does that make me a failure? No, and neither should it, in either direction.

Skills Gap courses, I would have to see the frequency of reviewing the gaps, as well as projecting the future gaps. I know that we experienced a problem with peopleflocking to a projected gap where pay was high, only to discover that the industry was orking itself out of the market.
Telecom workers being the prime example.
I recall a time when someone knowing fiber optic cable installation and such could write their own ticket, however, the crash came later when the large part of the infrastructure was completed and suddenly the demand for them dropped like a rock. The question of how to avoid that remains.

True. This is why I would review it on a 5 year basis - although perhaps that should be done more frequently since markets and the economy changes very swiftly these days?






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Profile   Post #: 12
RE: Bleuprint for Britain; 2 Education & Skills - 10/16/2006 12:31:46 PM   
ToGiveDivine


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Archer

True. This is why I would review it on a 5 year basis - although perhaps that should be done more frequently since markets and the economy changes very swiftly these days?



The Soviets had 5 year plans - it didn't work out so well for them ;-D

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Profile   Post #: 13
RE: Bleuprint for Britain; 2 Education & Skills - 10/16/2006 12:37:41 PM   
LadyEllen


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From: Stourport-England
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quote:

ORIGINAL: darkinshadows

quote:

6) EDUCATIONAL CULTURE
English will be the only language in which education is delivered, with Welsh and Gaelic also made available according to local preference. Children may select a language of their cultural origin at 13 if they wish to do so, but we will not have education delivered in Urdu/Hindi et al any longer, in order that the polarisation and volunteer apartheid such a situation produces, is ended. All children will also be educated in British history and citizenship as part of their Cultural Awarenss studies. It is not acceptable for schools to be reinforcing a ghetto mindset - rather they should be enforcing a British mindset to breed commonality between groups not division. If children have poor English when they start school, then after school English tuition will be provided free of charge such that they are able to achieve a good standard for the purposes of following lessons. This will also be applicable to faith schools.

And what about Cornish?  I believe that if you are going to allow local languages it should include all (I do realise that you did try and encompass 'local preference').  I think it is vital that with the british history, that all pupils...including those that are white, be taught the history of what all cultures within britain contributed to the war effort.  I think this instils a sense of belonging by showing pupils that it wasn't just a 'white fought' war... that grandparents of all ethnic background fought to keep the UK 'free' and helps end segregation.  There is an awful amount of 'left out history' from both a cultural and sexual orientation point of view.  We are only just getting to grips recently with the effect women had on the war effort, let alone ethnic groups.
 
Peace and Rapture
 
*edit to add... I am not meaning to be picky... but there is something rather ironic about a post on education when the titles mispelled
...... couldnt resist...



OK Dark - Cornish too if you like. Though from the news the other day there are only 400 fluent speakers of Cornish, so it might have to wait until we train up some teachers! I started learning some Cornish, but all I remember is "y u hi" (I think), which was something like "isnt it" (again, I think!)
 
And yes - the Cultural Awareness studies which will replace RE ( a compulsory subject as things are BTW, and a waste of time in most schools as its seen as irrelevant by the children who are not interested), would include the things you mention; who we are, where we're from, how we got to be where we are today - not as history so much, but in terms of understanding ourselves - all of us, including those from the former colonies and empire who contributed so much before they even migrated here. Its a story we all need to know, regardless of cultural background - its our story after all. And of course there are dark chapters in it, but that shouldnt mean the doing down of Britain I think we all have experienced, which only serves to divide us. I agree with you - whilst we shouldnt suggest that WWI was won by the Sikh soldiers at Ypres et al, it has been a disgrace on and for Britain that all these contributions from so many diverse people have been ignored in favour of a jingoistic approach in the past - replaced of course by the doing down of Britain which followed on as a reaction to it.
 
By the way, you win first prize for spotting the deliberate error. Or was it an attempt to bring in foreign languages? I'll let you know, when I've decided!
 
E

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Profile   Post #: 14
RE: Bleuprint for Britain; 2 Education & Skills - 10/16/2006 12:55:48 PM   
darkinshadows


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From: UK
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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyEllen

quote:

ORIGINAL: darkinshadows

quote:

6) EDUCATIONAL CULTURE
English will be the only language in which education is delivered, with Welsh and Gaelic also made available according to local preference. Children may select a language of their cultural origin at 13 if they wish to do so, but we will not have education delivered in Urdu/Hindi et al any longer, in order that the polarisation and volunteer apartheid such a situation produces, is ended. All children will also be educated in British history and citizenship as part of their Cultural Awarenss studies. It is not acceptable for schools to be reinforcing a ghetto mindset - rather they should be enforcing a British mindset to breed commonality between groups not division. If children have poor English when they start school, then after school English tuition will be provided free of charge such that they are able to achieve a good standard for the purposes of following lessons. This will also be applicable to faith schools.

And what about Cornish?  I believe that if you are going to allow local languages it should include all (I do realise that you did try and encompass 'local preference').  I think it is vital that with the british history, that all pupils...including those that are white, be taught the history of what all cultures within britain contributed to the war effort.  I think this instils a sense of belonging by showing pupils that it wasn't just a 'white fought' war... that grandparents of all ethnic background fought to keep the UK 'free' and helps end segregation.  There is an awful amount of 'left out history' from both a cultural and sexual orientation point of view.  We are only just getting to grips recently with the effect women had on the war effort, let alone ethnic groups.
 
Peace and Rapture
 
*edit to add... I am not meaning to be picky... but there is something rather ironic about a post on education when the titles mispelled
...... couldnt resist...



OK Dark - Cornish too if you like. Though from the news the other day there are only 400 fluent speakers of Cornish, so it might have to wait until we train up some teachers! I started learning some Cornish, but all I remember is "y u hi" (I think), which was something like "isnt it" (again, I think!)
 
And yes - the Cultural Awareness studies which will replace RE ( a compulsory subject as things are BTW, and a waste of time in most schools as its seen as irrelevant by the children who are not interested), would include the things you mention; who we are, where we're from, how we got to be where we are today - not as history so much, but in terms of understanding ourselves - all of us, including those from the former colonies and empire who contributed so much before they even migrated here. Its a story we all need to know, regardless of cultural background - its our story after all. And of course there are dark chapters in it, but that shouldnt mean the doing down of Britain I think we all have experienced, which only serves to divide us. I agree with you - whilst we shouldnt suggest that WWI was won by the Sikh soldiers at Ypres et al, it has been a disgrace on and for Britain that all these contributions from so many diverse people have been ignored in favour of a jingoistic approach in the past - replaced of course by the doing down of Britain which followed on as a reaction to it.
 
By the way, you win first prize for spotting the deliberate error. Or was it an attempt to bring in foreign languages? I'll let you know, when I've decided!
 
E

Gra'massy!
Me na vadna cowz a Sowznack... (actually, the last bit is a total lie, but I love the phrase...)
 
Pysk, Cober ha Sten
(Traditional Cornish Toast)


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Profile   Post #: 15
RE: Bleuprint for Britain; 2 Education & Skills - 10/16/2006 12:56:00 PM   
LadyEllen


Posts: 10931
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From: Stourport-England
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quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyEllen

4) REPEAT STUDIES OPTIONS/OBLIGATIONS
Children may choose to remain in school post 16 for up to two more years, if they would like to receive further education in subjects which for whatever reason, they did not succeed in previously - both academic and tradeskills. Children who have not achieved at least grade C at GCSE English and Maths, will be obliged to remain in school for up to two more years, and thereafter to attend evening classes at adult college until they have so achieved, unless there is agreement by qualified professionals that due to some medical/psychological condition, they are unable to achieve this.

Passes in individual subjects should be done away with and diplomas given out for graduating in all subjects to a high enough level and repeating a year should be compulsory to those children that fail.

This is a very interesting idea IMO MC. What better motivation to study after all, than to know you have to repeat the year if you fail!? Mind you, we would have to be careful not to set the bar for the minimum too high, I feel, otherwise we will have "children" still at school at 25 or something! Having said that, if one can earn a diploma in subjects that are possible for one to pass, because they are subjects for which one has aptitude and interest, then it becomes less of a problem. All diplomas though IMO, would have to include English, Maths, General Science and other life essentials anyway.
 
I also liked your point about the German system BTW!

5) UNIVERSITY AND FURTHER EDUCATION
Further education will be taxpayer funded for those studying subjects required to fill skills gaps in the economy. Full funding will also be given to those studying as working adults for higher qualifications that will meet skill gaps in the economy. This will apply particularly in relation to teaching, science, engineering and all tradeskills as of this time, though this list will change over time. For other studies, in areas where there is a lower skills gap, the student will be expected to make a contribution from 10% up to 100% of course costs, depending on the degree of skillsgap. All such funding arrangements will be reviewed on a five year basis. Once a student begins a course then the funding arrangement will be maintained as is until they finish it - within a set period, except in the case when taxpayer funding increases for a subject, when the student will accrue the new funding arrangement by way of a lower personal funding obligation.

Further education facilities will also be expected to provide full courses in tradeskills studies.

Given the above funding of certain courses, those benefitting from this funding will be expected to live and work within the UK for 5 to 10 years minimum (dependent on funding), post qualification, in order than the economy receives the benefit of its investment.

I'm all for graduates paying an education tax once working. There are so many graduates now that degrees have been devalued and many graduates won't earn as much as tradesmen which is why a tax would be fair as you will pay a percentage of your income. That won't cripple graduates of the arts and it won't unfairly hit graduates in subjects that can command a high salary.
 
Agreed, but dont we already have a high tax system in place anyway? One which taxes more, the more one earns. I could go for a higher rate for those who benefitted from funded higher education, as long as we dont have the crazy student loans situation - which of course, we wouldnt under funded courses!


6) EDUCATIONAL CULTURE
English will be the only language in which education is delivered, with Welsh and Gaelic also made available according to local preference. Children may select a language of their cultural origin at 13 if they wish to do so, but we will not have education delivered in Urdu/Hindi et al any longer, in order that the polarisation and volunteer apartheid such a situation produces, is ended. All children will also be educated in British history and citizenship as part of their Cultural Awarenss studies. It is not acceptable for schools to be reinforcing a ghetto mindset - rather they should be enforcing a British mindset to breed commonality between groups not division. If children have poor English when they start school, then after school English tuition will be provided free of charge such that they are able to achieve a good standard for the purposes of following lessons. This will also be applicable to faith schools.

All children should begin to learn a European or other important language (Chinese, Japanese etc) at junior school, the earlier the better.

Agreed. The current UK system is ridiculous in this regard. My son has just started French at age 11 - too old. My daughter would like to learn Spanish, she's 6, but its not available, and may not be available at all ever in the current system. The "damned foreigners should all learn English" approach must be ended. A foreign language should be taught from age 6 - not French though, a decidedly wrong first foreign language if ever there was one! One of the reasons for our failure to export goods in the UK is the lack of language skills, and this must be rectified. A story - I applied at age 21 for a job in an export sales department - I turned up armed with a French and German A level, thinking they would help me. The response was "they must be useful for your holidays". Needless to say I didnt get the job and wouldnt have taken it if it had been offered. The company concerned folded a few years back due to the collapse of its export markets. Ironisch, nicht wahr?

FUNDING

Funding for quality education has to be found, there is no alternative. There are enough holy cows that money is wasted on where money can be found and if it can't then there is tax. Most people agree that tax for education is a good thing, it is because people don't trust the politicians and suspect the tax will be used on a holy cow that make many people against tax hikes. 
 
Agreed. Education is not a cost to the taxpayer after all - its an investment in the future - or at least it could be, if we got the system right. IMO, education is not about turning out A level students, it is about preparing children for life, to be valued members of a society in which all are valuable - something we have consistently failed to do for the past few decades.
 




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Profile   Post #: 16
RE: Bleuprint for Britain; 2 Education & Skills - 10/16/2006 1:15:40 PM   
LadyEllen


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From: Stourport-England
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To persecute teachers for failing students, or class performances is not productive.  You cannot reward teachers like you can reward managers in a business.  Apart from the fact that the best teachers will try and be able to get into the higher achieving schools and would not bother applying for schools where classes were failing, and thus this would perpetuate the continuous decline of failing schools (darkinshadows)
 
This is why I think (as per my reply to Archer and as commented on by Meatcleaver) there must first be some mechanism put in place to ensure that all schools get as level a playing field as possible (no pun intended) by way of safeguarding equitable funding and an equitable social mix at schools. Also, in my proposals, the emphasis is away from producing the measurement of a school's success purely on the basis of academic achievement by its pupils - if we throw tradeskills achievements in as well, then I believe that by and large we will see all schools achieving more or less the same performance. The assessment of teachers must in any case, be related to the improvement of their students' performance, not on some objective scale - we all realise that some children will not do well in one subject or another (I was in top class for everything but maths, where I was in set 4, for instance), and that schools will use a set system to divide children by ability. If the teacher of my maths set were judged on exam performance of his students alongside the students of the top set, he would be sacked - but this would be unfair. Instead he would be judged on the improvement of his students - in my case, he would receive a bonus as I was moved to top set in maths for goodness only knows reason! If any teacher had been foolish enough to try to teach me woodwork however, then God help her!
 
But then - if you are planning on making all schools equal, it would not matter where the children attend - would it?
Exactly - ensuring a social mix, including tradeskills courses in the judgement of school quality, should result in as equal quality across schools as is possible.

 
Specialist schools - in effect, I see this as the end product of the bad/better/best system which the current organisation of education has brought about. Why do we need specialist schools? We dont - its just that some schools are adopting this status under pressure from parents and under the pressure of a system which says parents must compete for places. There is also of course, the snob value of having one's child at an "academy" rather than the secondary modern it was previously - the academy denotes exclusivity just as much as it exercises it in selection.
 
I would do away with specialist schools - all schools should offer a full curriculum of suitable courses for the wider mix of students they would in future take in. We all pay taxes for our children to receive a good education - why then should some of us have to put up with a lesser education for our children, for any reason?
 
E
 

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Profile   Post #: 17
RE: Bleuprint for Britain; 2 Education & Skills - 10/16/2006 1:21:45 PM   
LadyEllen


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From: Stourport-England
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quote:

ORIGINAL: philosophy

"I have little trouble with this other than no selection by aptitude. I would rather they simply use the test scores and evaluated aptitude to offer the options, much the way the US military does for selecting MOS schools, Score a 75 and these options are open, score a 85 and all those options for 75 + these additional ones are open, ... "

.....the danger with this is that we freeze our expectations of children based on how they perform on tests taken up to the age of 13. It effectively treats children as classes of beings as opposed to individuals. All education ought to be child-centred, and not all children begin to show their potential before the age of 13......indeed some children fall back significently after that age due to issues such as ABI, which often only shows up later as different brain structures mature.



I agree P - ideally all children should have a tailored education - but at the same time we have to deal with numbers here, in the most efficient way we can. Not just in terms of the efficiency of the organisation, but also in terms of delivering the best education we can on a mass scale. At some point, we have to assess - and that will always lead to errors and oversights with the numbers to be dealt with. I would hope that by making the testing as wide as possible, and not relying on a single test on one day for assessments, we could avoid such errors as much as possible, but the will occur in a mass education system. If we make education possible to continue for two more years than as now, then those two years could perhaps be used by those overlooked to pursue their right path? I do not want to see one more child leave school with nothing, thats for sure. 

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Profile   Post #: 18
RE: Bleuprint for Britain; 2 Education & Skills - 10/16/2006 1:29:09 PM   
philosophy


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"At some point, we have to assess - and that will always lead to errors and oversights with the numbers to be dealt with."

...only if those assesments are set centrally. If we simply trust teachers to make local assesments then there is no number issue to deal with. The problem with the National Curriculum is that it neutered local decision making and replaced it with a national agenda. Fund the schools adequately and allow them to make their decisions based on those children they are responsible for.....in other words, decentralise education. It would lead to a wider range of possible solutions, but each solution would be based on local circumstances, not national generalisations.

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Profile   Post #: 19
RE: Bleuprint for Britain; 2 Education & Skills - 10/16/2006 1:35:12 PM   
LadyEllen


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Hi Kisshou - thanks for the contribution

quote:

ORIGINAL: kisshou

Hiya LadyEllen,

I can only compare this to where I live (Florida) where we struggle with the same issues.

Without tests how you will you evaluate if the average performance has improved? What basis will teacher's be evaluated on? #1 sounds very vague.

See reply to darkinshadows (I think) - teachers will be assessed on improvement of their class, not against an objective measure.

#2 I see many above me have addressed this, I live in a county that has just ended bussing due to race/economic diversity. With that we had children spendings 2-3 hours on a bus per day also for working parents trying to attend awards, conferences or volunteer at the school the bussing made it impossible. However now the wealthier kids are better off because as a whole their parents donate more time and money to the individual schools that they attend.

I cannot answer this one - it all depends on the size of the settlement and the number of schools, as to whether it is practical to meet my ideal of a good mix of students. In most UK towns/cities, I feel that such a mix would be possible to achieve practically, but obviously in the US things are on a different scale than here! Clearly, it would be foolish to send children 2-3 hours to produce a good mix though.

Our brand new local high school has the same option as #3, they call them 'academies' there are both career and college based ones. There is also mandatory group counseling that focuses on staying in school and getting help with problems. It has been very successful so far.

This sounds good. I would like to see career and college based students all in one place, but again, the scales in the US might mean this is impossible, as above. I guess its not a problem to divide them, as long as it is understood throughout society that there is no shame in becoming a tradesperson rather than getting a degree in some ology or another, which is the problem in the UK.

#4 To recieve a high school diploma here you must successfully pass the FCAT exam besides fulfilling course requirements. This is basic level math and reading skills test.

Sounds good. We need something like this here - a means of ensuring all children leave school with a certain level of education which will assist them in life, rather than be seen as something to be forgotten.

#5 our lotto (lottery) money goes to Bright Futures , alot of people complain but I think it has been successful in funding college educations.

This also sounds like a good idea, although I am personally against the principles of lotteries and scratchcards and the like, as they tend to exploit the poor.

I had no idea people actually used Welsh and Gaelic for everyday use. That first sentence made no sense since there are two exceptions. Where I live everything is in English and Spanish , alot of things are also in Creole.

Oh yes - come to the UK and I'll drive you to Abermaw in Wales and we'll watch the TV in Welsh. Absolutely bloody indecipherable! But its wonderful that its still spoken and used so much around the towns and villages, and taught in the schools.

I am wondering where music, sports, art and theatre fit in with this educational plan?

Yes - darkinshadows has picked up on this as well. I couldnt really produce timetables for a school week for academic and tradeskills students, but rest assured all currently available subjects plus a few others will still be available to those who wish to do them!

kisshou


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