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Perplexing Question for a slave/submissive - 1/25/2005 8:50:45 AM

bear4u2pet

Posts: 5
Joined: 1/19/2005
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Would you be so kind as to assist me in a brief bit of research just to satisfy my own curiosity in my seeking to become a more effective dominant (and perhaps, inadvertantly, a "demented" sadist)?

Knowing of subserviants' desires for complete dominance by another, would not the perfect act of dominance be the command for the sub to take complete charge of the relationship, thereby making the dom the submissive?

How would you, as a submissive, handle this problem of having to become dominant?

Or to delve deeper, is this actually the case; do the submissive's desires encompass the dom's complete thoughts, acts, and life? Are you, perhaps, like Ghandi, commanding your dom's obedience through your own submission?

Or is this a "Circle of Ouroboros"?

Post #: 1

RE: Perplexing Question for a slave/submissive - 1/25/2005 9:05:58 AM

perverseangelic

Posts: 2625
Joined: 2/2/2004
From: Davis, Ca
Status: offline

I would not enter a relationship in which I was asked to take complete control, even if that request was issued as an order.

I see what you're saying, and think it probably would be an ulitmate act of sadism, however it would also make me an unfufilled person. The part of submission that satisfies me is serving, is fufilling someone elses needs and, basically, waiting on them. While it is possible for me, for short times, to top because it pleases my partner, were I asked to do it at all times, regardless of how much pleasure it would bring my partner, I would not be able to do it.

Yes, I would be fufilling my need to serve, however I would also be assuming a role that makes me incredibly uncomfortable and brings me no pleasure. The relationship would quickly become one-sided in the bad way. That is, one parter deriving no fufilment from it.

I appologize if it sounds rude, but to me, a situation like that would make me believe that the person in question wants to be a bottom/submisive partner but believes for whatever reason he/she should not do so. It seems like a way of "getting around" admitting one likes to submit.

_____________________________

~in the begining it is always dark~

(in reply to bear4u2pet)

Post #: 2

RE: Perplexing Question for a slave/submissive - 1/25/2005 9:30:26 AM

happypervert

Posts: 2203
Joined: 5/11/2004
From: Scranton, PA
Status: offline

quote:

Knowing of subserviants' desires for complete dominance by another, would not the perfect act of dominance be the command for the sub to take complete charge of the relationship, thereby making the dom the submissive?

I think perverse is on the right track. That statement looks like you're just manipulating semantics and logic as a means to bottom from the top. But IMO, instead of being a "perfect act of dominance", it is really just perfect nonsense.

Now there are occasions where I've told a gal to pick a place to eat, for example, and the response has been "You're in charge so you pick" . . . to which I reply "I know I'm in charge and that's why I'm telling you to pick the restaurant." That is far from having her take complete charge of the relationship and it has nothing to do with me wanting to be submissive. I just want her to come up with an idea outside my list of favorites.

_____________________________

"Get a bicycle. You will not regret it if you live." . . . Mark Twain

(in reply to bear4u2pet)

Post #: 3

RE: Perplexing Question for a slave/submissive - 1/25/2005 10:13:48 AM

TallDarkAndWitty

Posts: 1893
Joined: 6/12/2004
From: Rochester, NY
Status: offline

This is a very interesting mind experiment. The core of the question really comes down to "What does it mean to dominate someone?"

Is it dominance to give one order and have that one order followed forever? Wouldn't the "ultimate act of dominance" be any order that was followed without question or reinforcement forever? That doesn't seem like dominance to me.

In my mind, dominance is a flow of energy from top to bottom. The flow must be actively maintained for it to continue to be felt by both parties. In my experience, if a top ceases to provide that dominant energy for any length of time (be it from lack of time together or change in actions and feelings) the bottom feels the lack and grows restless and unsatisfied.

Submission is also a flow of energy, a very different kind of energy, from the bottom to the top. When the energy flows line up, they begin to feed on one another and the sparks really begin to fly. *smile*

In the situation presented in the OP, it seems very much that the dominant energy would cease to flow from the top and the bottom would quickly (and quite rightly) tire of the situation. The needs must be fed.

Taggard

_____________________________

A most rewarding compliment is an insult from the ill-informed.

My slave: Kat (RainaVerene on the other side) and her website: RainaVerene.com

(in reply to bear4u2pet)

Post #: 4

RE: Perplexing Question for a slave/submissive - 1/25/2005 10:44:31 AM

bear4u2pet

Posts: 5
Joined: 1/19/2005
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"I would not enter a relationship in which I was asked to take complete control, even if that request was issued as an order."

But then do you not, even as a "submissive", actually exert complete control over the relationship?

The real question is "does the submissive, by being voluntarily submissive, actually completely control the relationship and thus, advertantly or inadvertantly, enslave and control the dom directing the dom to serve the specific desires of the sub?"

(in reply to perverseangelic)

Post #: 5

RE: Perplexing Question for a slave/submissive - 1/25/2005 10:53:12 AM

LdyAuburn

Posts: 179
Joined: 5/9/2004
Status: offline

I know of dominants who enjoy the physical aspect of enjoying pain which their submissives find a bit on the mind altering part, perhaps giving over control for a period of time eg 24 hours might be fun in some scenarios, but giving over permanently totally different story

by the way bear if you could find someone who 'specific desire of the sub' wants to do windows ...actually quite a few windows for that and that alone I would enjoy hearing from you

regards

ok not sure if answering forums at five am is a good idea

(in reply to bear4u2pet)

Post #: 6

RE: Perplexing Question for a slave/submissive - 1/25/2005 11:54:25 AM

darkinshadows

Posts: 4145
Joined: 6/2/2004
From: UK
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I could not be within a relationship that had such a concept as you have asked. It would make no sense to me. If Master wanted me to take care of certain things... then of course, I obey. But He still controls the issues and as I have no will, but His, ultimately I am working to His demands.

If a Master wants a fem sub to become sexual with another fem sub to please Him... would that make the sub, bi? I would say no. She obeys. Period.

I agree with happy... To me it does look like an explaination to manipulate topping from below.

quote:

Or is this a "Circle of Ouroboros"?

Possibly... In a way. Ouroboros do have the distinction of having a 'head' and a 'tail', even though they begin and end in the same place though. Making them seperate yet one. But it also represents creation and destruction. One does not exist without the other. To live, is to devour. To devour is to create. Indeed the yin and yang... a trinity... As is the triskel... the BDSM symbol...

_____________________________

.dark.

...i surrender to gravity and the unknown...

(in reply to bear4u2pet)

Post #: 7

RE: Perplexing Question for a slave/submissive - 1/25/2005 12:17:39 PM

bear4u2pet

Posts: 5
Joined: 1/19/2005
Status: offline

"..if you could find someone who 'specific desire of the sub' wants to do windows ...actually quite a few windows... "

But the specific desire of the sub is to be used by and please their dom. "Washing windows" would fulfill the criteria of "being used by and pleasing their dom". In fact, being punished for leaving streaks on the windows could be a desire of a sub seeking to be disciplined. Hence, the sub could intentionally leave streaks thus ensnaring the dom into inflicting the desired punishment.

(in reply to LdyAuburn)

Post #: 8

RE: Perplexing Question for a slave/submissive - 1/25/2005 12:22:32 PM

bear4u2pet

Posts: 5
Joined: 1/19/2005
Status: offline

Ahhh, Dark Angel, but isn't it all eventually about manipulating the topping from below??

Thanks for the input.

(in reply to darkinshadows)

Post #: 9

RE: Perplexing Question for a slave/submissive - 1/25/2005 12:24:51 PM

Suleiman

Posts: 1127
Joined: 9/9/2004
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There are many philosophical perspectives on this subject, and personally I am of the opinion that it is an orobian cycle, endlessly chasing its own tail.

Most subs do not want to dominate any more than dominants want to sub. Into this falls the category of the switch.

In some cases, the submissive does absorb the dominant's life, and thereby becomes the primary focus ofthe relationship. In other cases, this is not true, and the dominant is truly at the center of their personal universe.

A lot of the time, it's just fun'n'games. Don't try to read too much into this stuff. It'll make your head explode.

_____________________________

Think of my verbosity as a sort of litmus test for our relationship. I write in a manner identical to how I speak and how I think. If you can not cope with what I have written here, it is probably for the best if we go our separate ways.

(in reply to bear4u2pet)

Post #: 10

RE: Perplexing Question for a slave/submissive - 1/25/2005 1:02:33 PM

darkpetal

Posts: 24
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: bear4u2pet

Would you be so kind as to assist me in a brief bit of research just to satisfy my own curiosity in my seeking to become a more effective dominant (and perhaps, inadvertantly, a "demented" sadist)?

Knowing of subserviants' desires for complete dominance by another, would not the perfect act of dominance be the command for the sub to take complete charge of the relationship, thereby making the dom the submissive?

How would you, as a submissive, handle this problem of having to become dominant?

Or to delve deeper, is this actually the case; do the submissive's desires encompass the dom's complete thoughts, acts, and life? Are you, perhaps, like Ghandi, commanding your dom's obedience through your own submission?

Or is this a "Circle of Ouroboros"?

i think i was just feeling hurdled from a jet liner at sonic boom pace in another galaxy...far...far...away!

i might have been a top from the bottom on relationship issues, but please.... to deep for me!

will just sit in my corner and read on this one after i gave my little subby opinion
peta

(in reply to bear4u2pet)

Post #: 11

RE: Perplexing Question for a slave/submissive - 1/25/2005 1:03:21 PM

TallDarkAndWitty

Posts: 1893
Joined: 6/12/2004
From: Rochester, NY
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: bear4u2pet
The real question is "does the submissive, by being voluntarily submissive, actually completely control the relationship and thus, advertantly or inadvertantly, enslave and control the dom directing the dom to serve the specific desires of the sub?"

Of course the dom serves the sub...that much is obvious. It is also obvious that the sub serves the dom. To the extent that both give their time and energy to the relationship, they are both serving the dynamic...

Taggard

_____________________________

A most rewarding compliment is an insult from the ill-informed.

My slave: Kat (RainaVerene on the other side) and her website: RainaVerene.com

(in reply to bear4u2pet)

Post #: 12

RE: Perplexing Question for a slave/submissive - 1/25/2005 1:20:27 PM

panthergoddess

Posts: 93
Joined: 1/11/2005
From: Bessemer City, NC USA
Status: offline

(I'm a Switch here so if I may....)

I tried a little ONLINE experiment.. (One that I'll add right here and now that I would NEVER do real time)....whereby I placed myself up for 4 of my online subs to use as they wish. Telling them all that I am relinquishing ALL control to them but that they knew enough of me by now to know what it is I enjoy from them having served me for so long thusfar.

Guess what I confirmed......not one of them were willing to give me pain, and were quite at a loss as to how to handle having that much control. I ended up having to request an online Dom friend of mine to give them instructions. Indeed the Dom himself was trying to spank me and one of the subs covered me to shield me from the blows.

Now I realize this was an online scenario only....as I've said I'd never put my real life subs into this situation for it would have the ability to place them into psychological chaos at having the role reversed like that.

(hope this helped to answer the question.)

(in reply to TallDarkAndWitty)

Post #: 13

RE: Perplexing Question for a slave/submissive - 1/25/2005 1:37:40 PM

domtimothy46176

Posts: 670
Joined: 12/25/2004
From: Dayton, Ohio area
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: bear4u2pet

"I would not enter a relationship in which I was asked to take complete control, even if that request was issued as an order."

But then do you not, even as a "submissive", actually exert complete control over the relationship?

The real question is "does the submissive, by being voluntarily submissive, actually completely control the relationship and thus, advertantly or inadvertantly, enslave and control the dom directing the dom to serve the specific desires of the sub?"

I've argued both sides of this topic before and it can be a stimulating discussion that brings up many interesting points. What I have found, however, is that it fails to take into account certain aspects of the D/s dynamic. In some cases, the dominant/submissive relationship becomes more than the sum of it's component parts.

While it is undeniably true that, in the beginning, the submissive can and often does dictate the nature and degree of interaction through the process of negotiation, this "control" is sometimes a temporary, transitional authority. Over the course of time, given the proper mix of factors, the submissive can find herself incapable of asserting herself in opposition to the the desires of the dominant. I believe this is referred to as internal enslavement.
Be well,
Timothy

(in reply to bear4u2pet)

Post #: 14

RE: Perplexing Question for a slave/submissive - 1/25/2005 1:52:36 PM

darkinshadows

Posts: 4145
Joined: 6/2/2004
From: UK
Status: offline

Is it about manipulating topping from below?
No.

***edit for typo***

< Message edited by dark~angel -- 1/25/2005 1:54:29 PM >

_____________________________

.dark.

...i surrender to gravity and the unknown...

(in reply to bear4u2pet)

Post #: 15

RE: Perplexing Question for a slave/submissive - 1/25/2005 1:59:38 PM

darkinshadows

Posts: 4145
Joined: 6/2/2004
From: UK
Status: offline

quote:

But the specific desire of the sub is to be used by and please their dom. "Washing windows" would fulfill the criteria of "being used by and pleasing their dom". In fact, being punished for leaving streaks on the windows could be a desire of a sub seeking to be disciplined. Hence, the sub could intentionally leave streaks thus ensnaring the dom into inflicting the desired punishment.

What if the sub does not enjoy punishments?

_____________________________

.dark.

...i surrender to gravity and the unknown...

(in reply to bear4u2pet)

Post #: 16

RE: Perplexing Question for a slave/submissive - 1/25/2005 2:00:54 PM

darkinshadows

Posts: 4145
Joined: 6/2/2004
From: UK
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: TallDarkAndWitty

Of course the dom serves the sub...that much is obvious. It is also obvious that the sub serves the dom. To the extent that both give their time and energy to the relationship, they are both serving the dynamic...

Taggard

Beautifully put.

_____________________________

.dark.

...i surrender to gravity and the unknown...

(in reply to TallDarkAndWitty)

Post #: 17

RE: Perplexing Question for a slave/submissive - 1/25/2005 2:06:47 PM

MizSuz

Posts: 1881
Joined: 1/1/2004
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: bear4u2pet

Knowing of subserviants' desires for complete dominance by another, would not the perfect act of dominance be the command for the sub to take complete charge of the relationship, thereby making the dom the submissive?

How would you, as a submissive, handle this problem of having to become dominant?

I'm a femdom, not a sub, so I really can't answer you from the perspective I think you were trying to get to, though.

Your question did call to mind an experience that I once had that I'll share with you.

I once had a male submissive, who was NOT a switch at all, who I had set a task for and established consequences for not completing said task. He was very easily sidetracked and allowed this task to fall by the wayside quite often. After many different consequences were implemented and none were found to be satisfactory to achieve the desired result (of him accomplishing said task) I one day handed him one of my nastiest floggers and explained to him that I believed his inability to remember this task had to be some failing in myself as his dominant. Therefore I needed to be punished and it fell to him to do so. I told him that I required him to beat me.

He was devastated. He begged me not to make him do it, he cried like a child (complete with the usual body fluids from various facial orifi), he fell to his knees incapacitated and simply could not imagine touching me that way.

I informed him that, should the assigned task fail to occur again, I would find it necessary to go out and find someone to beat me for failing as his dominant and he would be made to watch, as I believed we were in it together.

Ya know, I never had to ask him about getting that task done again.

_____________________________

“The more you love, the more you can love—and the more intensely you love. Nor is there any limit on how many you can love. If a person had time enough, he could love all of that majority who are decent and just.”
- Robert Heinlein

(in reply to bear4u2pet)

Post #: 18

RE: Perplexing Question for a slave/submissive - 1/25/2005 2:12:21 PM

MizSuz

Posts: 1881
Joined: 1/1/2004
Status: offline

quote:

Now there are occasions where I've told a gal to pick a place to eat, for example, and the response has been "You're in charge so you pick" . . . to which I reply "I know I'm in charge and that's why I'm telling you to pick the restaurant." That is far from having her take complete charge of the relationship and it has nothing to do with me wanting to be submissive. I just want her to come up with an idea outside my list of favorites.

Amen. Amen! AMEN! AMEEEEEEEEEN!

_____________________________

“The more you love, the more you can love—and the more intensely you love. Nor is there any limit on how many you can love. If a person had time enough, he could love all of that majority who are decent and just.”
- Robert Heinlein

(in reply to happypervert)

Post #: 19

RE: Perplexing Question for a slave/submissive - 1/25/2005 2:26:00 PM

perverseangelic

Posts: 2625
Joined: 2/2/2004
From: Davis, Ca
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: bear4u2pet

"I would not enter a relationship in which I was asked to take complete control, even if that request was issued as an order."

But then do you not, even as a "submissive", actually exert complete control over the relationship?

The real question is "does the submissive, by being voluntarily submissive, actually completely control the relationship and thus, advertantly or inadvertantly, enslave and control the dom directing the dom to serve the specific desires of the sub?"

No, I don't think so. The way I see it, I can leave. So, sure I have ultimate control. Aside from being able to leave, do I dictate anything else? No.

We argue this lots on the boards, it seems. Yes, I have the power to leave. No this does not make me ultimatly in charge of the relationship.

I think the key is seeing it as a relationship. Needs of -both- parties are being fed. If obtaining satisfaction from a relationship is your definition of control, then -all- submissive people in fufilling relationships are "in control."

Why is it that if someone enjoys an action, and seeks out a relationship that provides her that action she is not submissive? Why can't she be submissive to her partner in the kind of power exchange that fufils her as well as her partner?

quote:

Original: MizSuz
I once had a male submissive, who was NOT a switch at all...I required him to beat me.

This kind of "switching" I can understand within the context you mentioned. It isn't taking over the entire relationship. It is doing a perscribed task. I don't believe in this case the dominant party releases control at all. In the OP's situation, I believe that the power dynamic would switch entirely.

< Message edited by perverseangelic -- 1/25/2005 2:30:22 PM >

_____________________________

~in the begining it is always dark~

(in reply to bear4u2pet)

Post #: 20

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