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Not knowing what you do not know - 10/19/2006 6:58:32 PM   
PiercedDaz


Posts: 121
Joined: 10/16/2006
Status: offline 		I am a Trainee Dom who is trying to enlighten himself to the skills required to make a good and balanced Dom.

When I told a friend of Mine that I was entering the D/s lifestyle she informed Me that she is sub but now in a vanilla relationship. she told me of an upsetting story that I seek advice on.

she and her previous Master were inexperienced but had been in a long term loving and trusting relationship before entering the D/s dynamic. she is a natural sub who was willing to let her Master explore her limits. she explained that once Pandoras Box had been opened, she found it hard to come back. she kept pushing and pushing as it was a new experience that she had no frame of reference to. By now she was fully submitted to her Master and was unhappy that she was pushing her limits too far as she had never explored this so far. her Master did not realise that she was slipping too far and followed his Domination by pushing her further unaware that she was going too far. This resulted in boundaries being crossed and her being physically and emotionally abused. she told me that her mind had made her SO compliant to her Master that it was not until after the experience that she realised that she had risked her own emotional welfare and that her Master had gone too far without knowing.

I think I may have waffled the point here but the simple question is: If you are willing to explore your darkest limits, how do you know what you do not know?
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RE: Not knowing what you do not know - 10/19/2006 7:27:45 PM   
sweetnurseBBW


Posts: 2464
Joined: 1/26/2006
From: North Carolina
Status: offline 		Well as a slave I know the difference between being umcomfortable with something and outrightly horrfied. Sub/slaves have to take responsibilty for speaking up when they think someone is going too far. Dominants are not mind readers.

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Sir Pain's pain slut

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RE: Not knowing what you do not know - 10/19/2006 7:27:50 PM   
BitaTruble


Posts: 9779
Joined: 1/12/2006
From: Texas
Status: offline 		You really don't, which is all the more reason to tread carefully when you are exploring. If you take a baby step forward, feel around with a big toe to make sure there's still ground underneath you, it's much easier to step back whereas if you leap off a cliff, you're pretty much committed to flying or dying.

Not that I ever took that advice myself. The risk of flying or dying was just too irresistable for me so jumping off cliffs became a way of life. There are pros and cons to both approaches.

Celeste

_____________________________

"Oh, so it's just like
Rock, paper, scissors."

He laughed. "You are the wisest woman I know."


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RE: Not knowing what you do not know - 10/19/2006 7:30:58 PM   
PiercedDaz


Posts: 121
Joined: 10/16/2006
Status: offline 		I understand what you say about gently exploring things. The way she explained it to Me (which is the part that disturbed Me) is that she did not realise that what she did was wrong until after the event as she had never felt this before. By then, its too late. Many thanks for your words of wisdom though.

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RE: Not knowing what you do not know - 10/20/2006 5:47:07 AM   
sophia37


Posts: 1433
Joined: 2/7/2006
Status: offline 		Well then. Now you know to go slow and talk about everything you can. Be glad she gave you some insight. What else can I say?

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RE: Not knowing what you do not know - 10/20/2006 6:12:38 AM   
ExtremeOwnerIL


Posts: 197
Joined: 10/19/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: PiercedDaz
I think I may have waffled the point here but the simple question is: If you are willing to explore your darkest limits, how do you know what you do not know?


Simple answer - you don't.

I struggled with this as well. For me, it was a question of being in a situation where I was being pushed by the "sub" beyond what I was emotionally and mentally ready for. Here I was, coming from a situation where I'd dreamed, but never thought it possible. Now she's wanting me to slap her face repeatedly, treat her like a rape target and beat her with my belt? WTF?!?

Heh. I learned, but at my pace. Go to the point where you can still process it and deal with it and incorporate what you discover into the mental picture you have of yourself. Sometimes you are going to push yourself - give yourself room to grow after that.

It's no different, in many ways, to exercising and sports. You're going to push, to grow and to get better. You may feel anxiety, unsure - but make the decision, get the facts, try it and see what happens. Be risk aware and open to saying "I'm sorry, I fucked up." and learning from it.

The story you relate is more about a Dominant's inability to communicate with his property, versus anything else. And that's a good lesson - communication is ALWAYS key. It does not make you "less Domly" (whatever that means) to sit down and listen to your property brain dump. It's your responsibility, just as it's the property's responsibility to communicate.

Good luck to you.
Regards,
EO

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RE: Not knowing what you do not know - 10/20/2006 6:35:39 AM   
happypervert


Posts: 2203
Joined: 5/11/2004
From: Scranton, PA
Status: offline
quote:

she did not realise that what she did was wrong until after the event as she had never felt this before. By then, its too late.

That is the way it goes when you get involved with someone and it turns out to be a mistake. Perhaps I am being overly sensitive to the phrase "her being physically and emotionally abused", but one only gets abuse when they end up with someone who is abusive.

People don't walk into initial meetings with forehead tattoos saying "I'm crazy" or we'd know what we want to know and avoid them; instead they reveal their craziness bit by bit so it doesn't seem so bad at first but only after a while does it get to a point above a threshhold where you go "This is fucked up".

Anyway, that's been my experience with a bad relationship and it sounds like what you described. If one is so concerned about it then they should just stay alone; otherwise ya gotta take a chance.


_____________________________

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RE: Not knowing what you do not know - 10/20/2006 6:48:54 AM   
PiercedDaz


Posts: 121
Joined: 10/16/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: happypervert

Perhaps I am being overly sensitive to the phrase "her being physically and emotionally abused", but one only gets abuse when they end up with someone who is abusive.

Interesting thought. Can the 'abuser' really be blamed when in fact the 'abused' does not understand his/her own limitations? That they only realise what they gave up was wrong, after the fact?

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RE: Not knowing what you do not know - 10/20/2006 7:22:38 AM   
PiercedDaz


Posts: 121
Joined: 10/16/2006
Status: offline 		Oops. New to this and not got a grip of this quote thing.

Apologies.

(in reply to PiercedDaz)
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RE: Not knowing what you do not know - 10/20/2006 3:12:00 PM   
Focus50


Posts: 3962
Joined: 12/28/2004
From: Newcastle, Australia
Status: offline 		Let's see, I've never stuck my hand in a fire but I know it's dangerous.  I've never murdered anyone but I know it's wrong.  I've never been tempted to taste dog shit but I know I wouldn't like it (memories of a Cheech & Chong track come flooding back....). 
 
I've personally worked in heavy equipment maintenance for decades and you're often expected to repair complicated machinery which you've never experienced before.  So how do you know what to do?  It's simple - you default to basic methods and guidelines....  IE, you seek schematics or manuals; you consult; you match mark anything you disassemble; take photos if necessary and most of all (and this is the hard one for many), you utilise a combination of intelligence, logic, common-sense and being *observant*!
 
Your very question is why I'm always coming down hard on teen doms etc who have no greater life skills beyond a hunger for kink.  You don't give children matches to play with!  I've personally believed the average loving D/s relationship requires a greater level of maturity from the participants, esp when physical play is being indulged. 
 
So when it comes to drawing a line re D/s, how do you know where?  Same way I've indulged in play I'd never done before.  You seek resources and you ask questions etc - but they're still not the most important.  Mostly, I have a basic "safety switch" of A), being conscious of *never* hurting my girl (even though accidents will occasionally happen) and B) being mature enough not to over reach my own limits. 
 
NOTE:  Like most Dom/mes, I do have personal limits but I don't see mine as being there to be tested.  I don't think to myself just a quick thrust of hand into that flame etc.  They're there for a reason that was probably developed over my entire lifetime. 
 
A strong sense of justice and appreciating right from wrong are excellent lifestyle "tools" that you don't learn in the lifestyle!  If you don't have them or know them; you're dangerous - and not in a "cool" way!  If you're not sure how much is too far, I'd suggest you've already passed your own limit and it's time to step back! 
 
Focus.

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RE: Not knowing what you do not know - 10/20/2006 3:33:12 PM   
princessrn


Posts: 57
Joined: 7/23/2006
Status: offline 		Greeting A/all
Focus ... Your words were  " You seek resources and you ask questions etc - but they're still not the most important.  Mostly, I have a basic "safety switch" of A), being conscious of *never* hurting my girl (even though accidents will occasionally happen) and B) being mature enough not to over reach my own limits"
we all have to start some were and if we havent been some were b4  surely its best to ask the advice of them that have and then draw up a plan  than go in blind  i feel your far to harsh on new comers looking back at other threads come on we all need advice some times be nice < smiles>

(in reply to Focus50)
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RE: Not knowing what you do not know - 10/20/2006 3:48:02 PM   
PiercedDaz


Posts: 121
Joined: 10/16/2006
Status: offline 		Focus50...I have to let you know that I am offended to your reply in my thread. On finishing reading your reply I had the impression that you are reasonably intelligent and experienced. However, I also found you to be extremely patronising and not in the slightest bit observant. Here is why...

If you are reading a post in these threads it is usually about some kind of emotional aspect of the lifestyle or physical activities that have ramifications on the dynamic's mindset. Therefore, questions on here should be carefully read before 'coming down hard'.

I understand that you may have a problem with Doms that don't understand or respect the responsibility of power. What did that have to do with this thread? At what point was this being asked? The whole point of the thread was my empathy for a friend of mine who is sub. She explained to me her turmoil at exploring the darker regions of herself and losing track of her own boundaries. It is only on her reflections that she realised that she had in fact given more than she later felt comfortable with. She said of her Master that although he was initiating and controlling the scenes, she couldn't have negative thoughts towards him as he could not read her mind and therefore didn't know.

Teen Doms? People without the lack of life skills? This is without a doubt one of the most pompous comments that I have heard in a very long time. I will not even bother to reply to that charge. I walk through life thinking that I have absolutely no idea of the history of the strangers I pass. I suggest that you take up this mindset as you have absolutely no idea of the heights and depths that I have experienced.

Again Focus50, I respect your experience but am sorely disappointed that it seems to have manifested in an air of superiority.

Daz.

"Once you think you know all there is to know, its time to leave. You never stop learning".

(in reply to Focus50)
Profile   Post #: 12
RE: Not knowing what you do not know - 10/20/2006 10:27:49 PM   
Focus50


Posts: 3962
Joined: 12/28/2004
From: Newcastle, Australia
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: PiercedDaz

Focus50...I have to let you know that I am offended to your reply in my thread. On finishing reading your reply I had the impression that you are reasonably intelligent and experienced. However, I also found you to be extremely patronising and not in the slightest bit observant. Here is why...

If you are reading a post in these threads it is usually about some kind of emotional aspect of the lifestyle or physical activities that have ramifications on the dynamic's mindset. Therefore, questions on here should be carefully read before 'coming down hard'.

I understand that you may have a problem with Doms that don't understand or respect the responsibility of power. What did that have to do with this thread? At what point was this being asked? The whole point of the thread was my empathy for a friend of mine who is sub. She explained to me her turmoil at exploring the darker regions of herself and losing track of her own boundaries. It is only on her reflections that she realised that she had in fact given more than she later felt comfortable with. She said of her Master that although he was initiating and controlling the scenes, she couldn't have negative thoughts towards him as he could not read her mind and therefore didn't know.

Teen Doms? People without the lack of life skills? This is without a doubt one of the most pompous comments that I have heard in a very long time. I will not even bother to reply to that charge. I walk through life thinking that I have absolutely no idea of the history of the strangers I pass. I suggest that you take up this mindset as you have absolutely no idea of the heights and depths that I have experienced.

Again Focus50, I respect your experience but am sorely disappointed that it seems to have manifested in an air of superiority.

Well, disregarding how *you* feel people should answer questions on a public board for a second; I answered this question:
quote:

"If you are willing to explore your darkest limits, how do you know what you do not know?" 

More specifically, I offered universal guidelines and examples for undertaking *anything* you've never done or known before.  It's all very well to ask someone or read books etc but what if they're not handy or available or you're confronted with something no-one has ever knowingly done before?  You don't have a modicom of logic or commonsense to approach such a task - even if it's to conclude you should just leave it be?
 
As for the rest of the nonsense you've posted in response, this is where I must apologise for not having your tunnel vision for only seeing the small picture.
 
And once more, this is a *public board* - just because you start a thread, you don't get to own it!  And you really don't get to dictate what answers people give so learn to ignore what you don't relate to; that can then be construed as a sign of maturity....
 
Aww hell, I've gotta ask....  In hindsight I probably could've phrased it better but you actually thought I was referring to you with my "teen dom" comment?  It was a further reference to the relevance of generalised life skills and the role they play with specific D/s questions - and teens usually don't have the skills; just the BDSM toys, opportunities and lack of self restraint....
 
Look, it's always gonna get ugly if your primary response to anything you don't understand is to get offended and lead with your mouth!  Still, being called "pompous" is a new experience for me... lol
 
Focus.

(in reply to PiercedDaz)
Profile   Post #: 13
RE: Not knowing what you do not know - 10/20/2006 10:35:11 PM   
Focus50


Posts: 3962
Joined: 12/28/2004
From: Newcastle, Australia
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: princessrn

Greeting A/all
Focus ... Your words were  " You seek resources and you ask questions etc - but they're still not the most important.  Mostly, I have a basic "safety switch" of A), being conscious of *never* hurting my girl (even though accidents will occasionally happen) and B) being mature enough not to over reach my own limits"
we all have to start some were and if we havent been some were b4  surely its best to ask the advice of them that have and then draw up a plan  than go in blind  i feel your far to harsh on new comers looking back at other threads come on we all need advice some times be nice < smiles>

Firstly, I'm not harsh on newbies at all - honest injun, am a sweetie!.  Granted, in the past I've had plenty to say to and about *young* doms who have just dived straight into the lifestyle with little appreciation of their responsibilities and obligations etc....  For that I don't apologise.
 
And you're absolutely right, *everyone* started somewhere and that was the very gist of my first post - that there are methods to approach anything you've never seen or done before without getting fried in the process.  In AND out of the lifestyle....
 
Focus.

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RE: Not knowing what you do not know - 10/20/2006 10:47:12 PM   
Owned1


Posts: 847
Joined: 7/6/2005
From: Toronto, Ontario
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: PiercedDaz

I think I may have waffled the point here but the simple question is: If you are willing to explore your darkest limits, how do you know what you do not know?


I think if one is to explore a power dynamic lifestyle they need to know themselves very well before they begin. 

On both sides of the dynamic if you do not know yourself how can you either give up or take control?

I believe most if not all people know where they draw the line, to what limits or extremes they will go.  There might be things one would fantasize about but also know that they have no desire to actually experience.

I dont agree with the essence of your question ~ how do you know what you dont know.

There may be things you have not felt such as flogging however you know you want to try it.  When you start out you need to be very clear with the other you are with as to what you have experienced and where you want to go.

This is where the romantic ideals of power exchange are dangerous.  You need to start slow and find out where you limits are.  Even with those who state they want to give up all control and belong to another, how true is this? 

Owned

_____________________________

~~in His Chains i am free~~

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RE: Not knowing what you do not know - 10/21/2006 7:38:54 AM   
Ava82


Posts: 55
Joined: 1/2/2006
Status: offline 		Take it painfully slowly.  Don't get carried away.  For instance, if someone's never been caned before, (after assuring they want to do it, and assuming you know what you're doing) hit once.  Stop.  Ask how it felt.  Ask if more is wanted.  Don't use something that's never been tried before as a punishment. 

The same goes with words.  If you want to play humiliation, first stick to common words.  Call them a whore.  Stop.  Ask how it felt.  If they're slightly hurt or disgusted, stop. 

I am young and learning, and these are the things that work for me.  Talk about everything that is going to be involved before you do it.  No surprises until you have a good system established.  Be willing to make changes to the Master Plan at first.  If you follow the steps of stopping all the time, talking alot, knowing what you're doing, and not surprising novices, I think anyone would be hard pressed to feel more than slightly uncomfortable for a second.

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RE: Not knowing what you do not know - 10/21/2006 7:59:50 AM   
Arpig


Posts: 9930
Joined: 1/3/2006
From: Increasingly further from reality
Status: offline
quote:

how do you know what you do not know?


You don't...if you did know, then it wouldn't be something you don't know...n'est ce pas?

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Big man! Pig Man!
Ha Ha...Charade you are!

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CM's #1 All-Time Also-Ran


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RE: Not knowing what you do not know - 10/21/2006 9:01:19 AM   
Lordandmaster


Posts: 10943
Joined: 6/22/2004
Status: offline 		Subs tells stories like this all the time; all it means is that she wasn't/isn't ready for the experiences she was getting herself into, and still isn't mature enough to realize that she was at least as much to blame as her dom.  If you let someone do something to you, you can't go ahead and blame the other person for the consequences.  BDSM is for adults only, and the definition of an adult is someone who takes responsibility for his or her actions.

quote:

ORIGINAL: PiercedDaz

she and her previous Master were inexperienced but had been in a long term loving and trusting relationship before entering the D/s dynamic. she is a natural sub who was willing to let her Master explore her limits. she explained that once Pandoras Box had been opened, she found it hard to come back. she kept pushing and pushing as it was a new experience that she had no frame of reference to. By now she was fully submitted to her Master and was unhappy that she was pushing her limits too far as she had never explored this so far. her Master did not realise that she was slipping too far and followed his Domination by pushing her further unaware that she was going too far. This resulted in boundaries being crossed and her being physically and emotionally abused. she told me that her mind had made her SO compliant to her Master that it was not until after the experience that she realised that she had risked her own emotional welfare and that her Master had gone too far without knowing.

(in reply to PiercedDaz)
Profile   Post #: 18
RE: Not knowing what you do not know - 10/21/2006 10:14:44 AM   
Siona


Posts: 242
Joined: 10/5/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Ava82

Take it painfully slowly.  Don't get carried away.  For instance, if someone's never been caned before, (after assuring they want to do it, and assuming you know what you're doing) hit once.  Stop.  Ask how it felt.  Ask if more is wanted.  Don't use something that's never been tried before as a punishment. 

The same goes with words.  If you want to play humiliation, first stick to common words.  Call them a whore.  Stop.  Ask how it felt.  If they're slightly hurt or disgusted, stop. 

I am young and learning, and these are the things that work for me.  Talk about everything that is going to be involved before you do it.  No surprises until you have a good system established.  Be willing to make changes to the Master Plan at first.  If you follow the steps of stopping all the time, talking alot, knowing what you're doing, and not surprising novices, I think anyone would be hard pressed to feel more than slightly uncomfortable for a second.



Nice reply Ava.

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RE: Not knowing what you do not know - 10/21/2006 10:25:40 AM   
FangsNfeet


Posts: 3758
Joined: 12/3/2004
Status: offline 		Start off with what you know and expand from there. Take every step with confidence. Not everything will go according to plan. However, with confidence, you can make just about any suprise or outcome as if it where meant to happen.

_____________________________

I'm Godzilla and you're Japan

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