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Why Men Are Paid More - 10/21/2006 2:38:23 PM   
Assclown


Posts: 29
Joined: 9/10/2006
Status: offline 		http://www.news.com.au/sundayheraldsun/story/0,,20586168-5000117,00.html
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RE: Why Men Are Paid More - 10/21/2006 3:05:40 PM   
toservez


Posts: 1733
Joined: 9/7/2006
From: All over now in Minnesota
Status: offline 		Oh this thread is got a great chance of getting emotionally charged. I actually agree with the article very much. Most academic research shows that women are paid less not because we have tits but for honest  rational reasons.

Most who do rant equal pay for equal work do it in such a simple non thought out politically correct rants. There has been several studies that I have read that women in the business world are paid less because of raising children. In general woman are almost always the primary parent in raising the children and in doing so cannot or look for jobs, when they have children,  that do not have overtime, work on weekends, traveling and getting transferred to a new city. By nature of the real world these type of jobs pay less and give you less a chance at promotion.

In the end my former Master had a great saying. Anybody can point to another person and think they should be paid more then them and somebody is pointing at you thinking the same thing.


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RE: Why Men Are Paid More - 10/21/2006 3:46:29 PM   
Zensee


Posts: 1564
Joined: 9/4/2004
Status: offline 		And then there’s this article...   http://www.cbc.ca/cp/science/061019/g101920.html  
quote:

VANCOUVER (CP) - Women who are told their female genes make them poor mathematicians actually do poorly on math tests, says a new study. Researchers at the University of British Columbia also found the reverse is true: women who are told their gender is irrelevant to math skill do well on the same tests.

If you tell someone something enough times they may well end up believing it.

This male superiority dispute has been played out before in this forum and I imagine we will be hearing from the usual supremacist suspects shortly. I only hope they bring living horses to flog this time.

MHO, for the record; supremacists of all stripes seem to live in a rarified world bereft of compassion, reality and oxygen.

Z.
0

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RE: Why Men Are Paid More - 10/21/2006 3:59:17 PM   
Assclown


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Zensee

And then there’s this article...   http://www.cbc.ca/cp/science/061019/g101920.html  
quote:

VANCOUVER (CP) - Women who are told their female genes make them poor mathematicians actually do poorly on math tests, says a new study. Researchers at the University of British Columbia also found the reverse is true: women who are told their gender is irrelevant to math skill do well on the same tests.

If you tell someone something enough times they may well end up believing it.

This male superiority dispute has been played out before in this forum and I imagine we will be hearing from the usual supremacist suspects shortly. I only hope they bring living horses to flog this time.

MHO, for the record; supremacists of all stripes seem to live in a rarified world bereft of compassion, reality and oxygen.

Z.
0



Why is a male labeled a supremacist when he simply just states out logical facts that are not in the womans favor? Why aren't feminist labeled as supremacist when they have their different opinion on equal pay or them showing that females are better than men doing this and that as we always hear in the media? There are enough articles out there that I have seen that discuss statistics of women being smarter than men, its funny how these articles are hardly criticized and accused of being under the influence of female supremacy. Do many people like you actually know what real equality is?



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RE: Why Men Are Paid More - 10/21/2006 4:04:45 PM   
Zensee


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Do many people like you actually know what real equality is?


If you'd do me the favour of reading the last line of my post you would have your answer, at least on this topic.
0

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RE: Why Men Are Paid More - 10/21/2006 7:53:29 PM   
Sinergy


Posts: 9383
Joined: 4/26/2004
Status: offline 		Hello A/all,

Danforth Quayle, 44th Vice President of the United States, is a shining example of why Men are paid more.

He stated...

"It is time for human beings to enter the solar system."

I am not sure anybody could have stated that positive truism more succinctly than he did, and he was a man.

Q.E.D.

Sinergy

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David St. Hubbins "This Is Spinal Tap"

"Every so often you let a word or phrase out and you want to catch it and bring it back. You cant do that, it is gone, gone forever." J. Danforth Quayle


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RE: Why Men Are Paid More - 10/21/2006 8:43:12 PM   
popeye1250


Posts: 18104
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From: New Hampshire
Status: offline 		Assclown, great name! lol

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RE: Why Men Are Paid More - 10/22/2006 1:31:21 AM   
NorthernGent


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Joined: 7/10/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Assclown

http://www.news.com.au/sundayheraldsun/story/0,,20586168-5000117,00.html



From a British perspective, I have worked in business at various levels and I have not seen salary discrimination for men and women in similar jobs. In my opinion, it is not the real issue when discussing gender employment.

The real issue is discrimination in terms of achieving those similar jobs. The Execs in medium and large businesses are still boy's clubs. There are exceptions to the rule but the potential to reach Exec level is less for women than it is for men.

Also, this has nothing to do with looking after children etc. I've personally seen women work themselves into the ground in an attempt to join the boy's club. What they don't understand is that by and large it just isn't going to happen even if they work all the hours in the world (and I have seen women work consistent 17 hour days over a few years in attempt to be accepted in the club). They want blokes who like a game of golf and appreciate sleazy lap dancing bars etc. They do not want women coming in and disrupting their comfort zones. Anyone who has worked in a medium or large business at a reasonably high level will tell you the same story of how it is in Britain.


< Message edited by NorthernGent -- 10/22/2006 1:35:30 AM >

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RE: Why Men Are Paid More - 10/22/2006 1:41:59 AM   
reversecuckold


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Joined: 2/12/2006
Status: offline 		 I think this was the operative phrase:
"Wage gaps tend to disappear when women put in the same hours and have the same experience, training and work history as men. "
Irrespective of gender, race, sexual orientation, creed etc, should be the simple fact that equality based pay is dependant on equality based work and performance. As it should be.

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RE: Why Men Are Paid More - 10/22/2006 1:49:44 AM   
LadyEllen


Posts: 10931
Joined: 6/30/2006
From: Stourport-England
Status: offline 		Good grief NG - something we agree on.

I spent a while in the "Exec Club" as an honourary member - honourary in that I didnt want to be there, but it was assumed I should have wanted to be there. And thats exactly how it is.

Seeing it from the other side, its exactly as you described. An example - we had our company end of year audit a few weeks ago. In the room - the senior male auditing accountant, my male fellow director, me as managing director, our female accountant, and the female assistant auditing accountant.

The ladies in the room, had to sit through a good fifteen minutes of conversation about a golfing holiday the boys had arranged for themselves. Totally ignored and excluded and expected to keep quiet and show interest. I walked out. The auditors charge hourly and I dont intend to pay for those fifteen minutes. The two ladies remaining behind stayed quiet and showed interest. Maybe I need to learn my place too.

When I returned, they were still talking about fxxxin' golf! What can be so fascinating about the world's dumbest game, that can foster a conversation and so much delight?

What I took from it was, that the entire thing was the accepted male way to dominate the meeting, such that when the females were permitted to enter into conversation (purely for the discussion of the audit), it should be on the understanding that they have been allowed to do so and should be grateful to have received such permission. Two professionally qualified women, reduced to the underclass by exclusion and only granted personhood on the understanding of those in charge.

That men do this amongst themselves in order to determine hierarchy, is something I have also noted in the past. Have no interest in golf/soccer etc? Well then, you count for nothing, even if you're the brightest guy in the room.

E



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RE: Why Men Are Paid More - 10/22/2006 2:08:49 AM   
NorthernGent


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quote:

ORIGINAL: reversecuckold

I think this was the operative phrase:
"Wage gaps tend to disappear when women put in the same hours and have the same experience, training and work history as men. "
Irrespective of gender, race, sexual orientation, creed etc, should be the simple fact that equality based pay is dependant on equality based work and performance. As it should be.


1) I agree with this. As mentioned in the above post, I have not seen gender discrimination in terms of salaries for similar jobs.

2) If the discussion is one of gender discrimination then it exists. It exists in the sense that those running the show are boy's clubs and largely women are not given the chance to achieve "equality based work and performance" at the top level.

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Sooner or later, the man who wins is the man who thinks he can.

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RE: Why Men Are Paid More - 10/22/2006 9:05:44 AM   
MizSuz


Posts: 1881
Joined: 1/1/2004
Status: offline 		I just left a job because after a year and a half of working like a dog (after they took away my overtime pay by making me exempt) it became clear that the only thing that was going to continue to grow was my responsibilities, not my income.  When I left I trained THREE people to take over my responsibilities.  THREE.

My annual raise was one percent.  ONE percent.  I was a manager and made 10K a year less (base salary) than the male assistant managers who did get over time pay and didn't have as much responsibility or any direct reports (I never had less than three).  Someone please explain to me how it made sense to pay three people with lower salaries than me to do my job when all they had to do was give me a reasonable increase that was commensurate with my responsibilities (and would have been significantly cheaper than paying three people, even lesser paid people, to do my job).

I don't have children at home (at least not that need my daily interaction - my son is 27 years old), I don't get PMS and go out for 1 to 3 days a month due to same (and haven't for 22 years), there will never be babies in my future, I'm available and willing to travel at the drop of a hat, I'm willing to relocate if the remuneration is right and I'm inordinately commited to my responsibilities.  I also don't golf, watch football or drink excessively (but have no issue with the occasional "seedy lapdance" if someone else would like to pay ).  Perhaps it's that last that got me, hmmm?

Now I'm in school and will be changing fields.  I'm going into IT (does that rate as 'technical' enough?) and expect to work like a dog for some time to come.  I also expect to be better compensated for my time, even if it works out that I consult (after a few years on the job) rather than take a wage slave position.

I've done blue collar and white collar work.  When I did blue collar work I walked onto the job with school and hands-on credentials, and still had to fight for the lowest paying job on the rung (but in fairness that was 20 years ago).  I usually was met with shitwatching, worst job assignments, and non-english speaking helpers for months until I 'proved' myself.  I was told outright "I don't think women belong in shipyards and it's my intention to prove you can't take it."  I once spent three months in the bilge of a ship, fitting 10" galvanized steel pipe while standing in ankle deep water, being paid as a helper when I had two helpers working for me.  How productive would you be with a helper who only knew how to say "Yah Mon"?  They left me alone to my work the first time they had to get me to crawl into a hole too small for anyone else to fit in because one of the guys fucked something up and there was nobody else on the crew small enough AND qualified enough to fix the problem.  Again, that was 20 years ago. 

I dont care what the statistics and studies show, there is still disparity based on gender in the workplace.  I'll grant you that it's becoming a smaller gap.



< Message edited by MizSuz -- 10/22/2006 9:08:06 AM >

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RE: Why Men Are Paid More - 10/22/2006 11:32:40 AM   
popeye1250


Posts: 18104
Joined: 1/27/2006
From: New Hampshire
Status: offline 		Suz, a 1 % raise? You were losing ground then if inflation is 3-4%!
I get a COLA (cost of living allowance) raise every year from my govt pension and they don't even factor in energy or food costs into the inflation figures for why I don't know. Those costs affect everyone too!
So you were actually losing money on that job!
People in the private sector need to realise that you guys need to be getting COLA raises every year not to get ahead but just to stay even!
If inflation is up 4% in a year and you don't get a COLA you're making 4% less than you did the previous year!
And the pay rates these days are abysmal!
When I got out of the Navy in 1974 I was making $5.50 an hour for loading and unloading trucks in a warehouse.
Here we are in 2006 and people are- still- making $5.50 an hour in some jobs???
Boy, this "Global-Economy" is so good for the American People, isn't it?
I wonder by how much inflation has risen since 1974? Anyone know?

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RE: Why Men Are Paid More - 10/22/2006 11:39:35 AM   
cuddleheart50


Posts: 9718
Joined: 2/20/2006
From: Kentucky
Status: offline 		I get no raises and have no insurance...lucky me.

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Dance like no one is watching,
Sing like no one is listening.
Love like you've never been hurt
and live like it's heaven on Earth.


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RE: Why Men Are Paid More - 10/22/2006 12:12:34 PM   
MizSuz


Posts: 1881
Joined: 1/1/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: popeye1250

Suz, a 1 % raise? You were losing ground then if inflation is 3-4%!


Yup, that's why I said I just left that job.

And please don't ask me about the pay cut I took to move here (to be closer to family).  It would make you cry (it damned near makes me cry).


_____________________________

“The more you love, the more you can love—and the more intensely you love. Nor is there any limit on how many you can love. If a person had time enough, he could love all of that majority who are decent and just.”
- Robert Heinlein

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RE: Why Men Are Paid More - 10/22/2006 2:32:56 PM   
swtnsparkling


Posts: 1738
Joined: 1/1/2004
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quote:

I get no raises and have no insurance...lucky me.


cuddleheart, That more than sucks, I have to ask- then why do you stay?

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RE: Why Men Are Paid More - 10/22/2006 2:36:18 PM   
cuddleheart50


Posts: 9718
Joined: 2/20/2006
From: Kentucky
Status: offline 		Its the only job around here that I can do( with what education I have).  And it pays more than min. wage, barely.  I was married for 30 yrs, hubby didnt want me to work, so here I am stuck...such is my life..lol

_____________________________

Dance like no one is watching,
Sing like no one is listening.
Love like you've never been hurt
and live like it's heaven on Earth.


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RE: Why Men Are Paid More - 10/22/2006 5:10:43 PM   
MizSuz


Posts: 1881
Joined: 1/1/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: cuddleheart50

Its the only job around here that I can do( with what education I have).  And it pays more than min. wage, barely.  I was married for 30 yrs, hubby didnt want me to work, so here I am stuck...such is my life..lol


Many states have rehabilitation programs for long time home makers entering the workforce.  Programs that pay for all or part of tuition for you to get training, if you're interested in doing that.  Every little bit helps.




_____________________________

“The more you love, the more you can love—and the more intensely you love. Nor is there any limit on how many you can love. If a person had time enough, he could love all of that majority who are decent and just.”
- Robert Heinlein

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RE: Why Men Are Paid More - 10/23/2006 5:18:19 AM   
Lashra


Posts: 4900
Joined: 2/9/2006
Status: offline 		In my company gender is meaningless when it comes to pay, thats because I am the Boss. I pay my employees according to their education, experience and job performance. That is how it should be IMO. This crap about men should recieve more pay because they are head of household, or do more work is just that, crap. There are alot of women head of households out there (I am one) and if they work hard they deserve equal pay.

As for all these studies that have been done, I take them all with a grain of salt.

~Lashra


_____________________________

“We can never judge the lives of others, because each person knows only their own pain and renunciation. It's one thing to feel that you are on the right path, but it's another to think that yours is the only path.”






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RE: Why Men Are Paid More - 10/23/2006 6:49:46 AM   
NorthernGent


Posts: 8730
Joined: 7/10/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: toservez

Oh this thread is got a great chance of getting emotionally charged. I actually agree with the article very much. Most academic research shows that women are paid less not because we have tits but for honest  rational reasons.



I should hope not. I don't like the idea of a tit tax. In fact, they're a very good reason to be paid more than men :-)





_____________________________

I have the courage to be a coward - but not beyond my limits.

Sooner or later, the man who wins is the man who thinks he can.

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