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Idiots, and the edge of freedom - 10/22/2006 7:38:30 AM

WyrdRich

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      The First Amendment gives us a place to stand when we fight, nothing more. People who believe it means nothing bad can ever happen to you because you express an opinion make me laugh pretty hard. People who can't tell the difference between reaction and censorship, who run away whining that they are being persecuted, make me sick.

    The activist days are behind me now. I'm older, wiser, and far more cynical. Yet free expression is still a hot button for me and I keep a casual eye on the indicators. I watch the line where what you say becomes a crime. It happened last week, to a young fool from Milwaukee WI, and I'm completely ok with where things stand at the moment. If anybody missed it, this character posted warnings of a terrorist attack scheduled for today (10/22) on 7 NFL stadiums, involving truck mounted radiological dirty-bombs. Something like 40 posts on a variety of boards. He's been charged under federal law.

    There has been much discussion in here of the Iraq situation and of the lead-up to it. Two incidents from that time sort of stick in my mind. We had the Dixie Chicks, who apparently had no understanding of their fan base, mouthing off and then getting their feelings hurt when people made a statement back. I was pretty much powerless to reply to them. I wouldn't have bought their product anyway. Then we had Martin Sheen, whose show I was free to stop watching. His, "I'm not the President, but I play one on TV," commercial pissed a few people off too. I guess someone from NBC suggested he keep his mouth shut, because the next time I saw a clip of him on the news, he was wearing a piece of duct tape over his mouth with "Peace" written on it. I thought his first statement was part of a dumb trend, but I gained a fair bit of respect for him when he said, "f*** the consequences, I'm going to speak my mind."

     I think it was Abbie Hoffman (I could be wrong) who said, "a movement that isn't willing to take casualties isn't worth a shit." True words.

      Free Speech is never going to be free, but the line where it becomes a crime is comfortably far off.

< Message edited by WyrdRich -- 10/22/2006 7:41:04 AM >

Post #: 1

RE: Idiots, and the edge of freedom - 10/22/2006 9:12:26 AM

juliaoceania

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quote:

The First Amendment gives us a place to stand when we fight, nothing more. People who believe it means nothing bad can ever happen to you because you express an opinion make me laugh pretty hard. People who can't tell the difference between reaction and censorship, who run away whining that they are being persecuted, make me sick.

The first amendment means the government cannot persecute you for your speech or abrogate it within starting riots or yelling fire in a theater...

I used to crack up when debating in political chat when right wingers would insist I had deprived them of freedom of speech by putting them on ignore for calling me filthy names. One person says something, and the other side has a right to respond, but you cannot make a person listen.

quote:

There has been much discussion in here of the Iraq situation and of the lead-up to it. Two incidents from that time sort of stick in my mind. We had the Dixie Chicks, who apparently had no understanding of their fan base,

They are more popular than ever... and they received death threats, that is against the law on the part of those people that did that to them.

quote:

mouthing off and then getting their feelings hurt when people made a statement back.

They have the right to feel anything they like, you have the right to deride them, although I do not remember any of them saying that people did not have a right to boycott them... I bought some of their music online just to make a point that I support them.. so did a lot of other people, now they are more popular than ever.

There are also people who are willing to take hits for their freedom of speech. I would also point out that if the government spies on whom you speak with no probable cause just to make sure they control political thought and ideology that is a violation of our rights... it has happened to me.

You know, those who are on the side of government usually do not worry about government becoming over reaching... just saying

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

(in reply to WyrdRich)

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RE: Idiots, and the edge of freedom - 10/22/2006 9:18:01 AM

NorthernGent

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quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

I would also point out that if the government spies on whom you speak with no probable cause just to make sure they control political thought and ideology that is a violation of our rights... it has happened to me.

I've no idea who's spied on you julia but the statement is 100% spot on. People need to get their priorities in order - the main priority being freedom of mind.

_____________________________

I have the courage to be a coward - but not beyond my limits.

Sooner or later, the man who wins is the man who thinks he can.

(in reply to juliaoceania)

Post #: 3

RE: Idiots, and the edge of freedom - 10/22/2006 9:20:18 AM

juliaoceania

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I belonged to an anti-war group (completely peaceful) that was spied on by the terrorism task force when I was in college. I noticed that I was being followed shortly before the group noted that they had been infiltrated by someone from the terrorism taskforce.

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

(in reply to NorthernGent)

Post #: 4

RE: Idiots, and the edge of freedom - 10/22/2006 10:00:12 AM

WyrdRich

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quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania
There are also people who are willing to take hits for their freedom of speech. I would also point out that if the government spies on whom you speak with no probable cause just to make sure they control political thought and ideology that is a violation of our rights... it has happened to me.

You know, those who are on the side of government usually do not worry about government becoming over reaching... just saying

     It's not about whether or not they are watching. The times we live in and the technology available pretty much make that inevitable. I'd be pissed off if phone calls to Pakistan WEREN'T being monitored.

     As for domestic groups being checked out, well duh. Most are sincere people seeking a peaceful change. A few go past that and would do violence to achieve their goals. I believe the gov't (under any administration) has an obligation to know the difference. A handy rule of thumb when dissenters meet to organize is to assume the most radical person in the room is some variety of cop.

(in reply to juliaoceania)

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RE: Idiots, and the edge of freedom - 10/22/2006 10:09:22 AM

NorthernGent

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julia,

It doesn't surprise me. There is a US site (Portsidemod) which sends information to Britain on the American left. Messages have been intercepted - the reason being, they want all Britons to think Americans are nutters and so there's no point resisting conservative economics and policy because the most powerful nation in the world is full of conservative lunatics.

There's no doubt that power is a drug and those that have it will say anything, and do anything, to anyone to retain the status quo.

One such piece of information that you may or may not be aware of:

Bernie Saunders (socialist member of the House of Representatives?) has calculated that $125 billion a year are paid by the American taxpayer in grants, tax-breaks and subsidies to some of the largest and most profitable corporations.

He cites the Export-Import bank which issued loan guarantees to Enron, Boeing, Mobil, IBM, General Electric, Motorola and General Motors as being beneficiaries of so-called job creation schemes. The hypocrisy and downright theft being that these companies are moving job thousands of miles away.

_____________________________

I have the courage to be a coward - but not beyond my limits.

Sooner or later, the man who wins is the man who thinks he can.

(in reply to juliaoceania)

Post #: 6

RE: Idiots, and the edge of freedom - 10/22/2006 10:46:39 AM

Lordandmaster

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Not sure what your point is, but if you're expecting anyone to disagree over whether making terrorist threats is a real crime, you've come to the wrong place. No one who is serious about free speech thinks it means that you can say whatever you want whenever you want and to whomever you want.

Who exactly are the idiots in your thread title, WyrdRich? I don't understand what you're trying to say, though the aggression comes through loud and clear.

quote:

ORIGINAL: WyrdRich

I watch the line where what you say becomes a crime. It happened last week, to a young fool from Milwaukee WI, and I'm completely ok with where things stand at the moment. If anybody missed it, this character posted warnings of a terrorist attack scheduled for today (10/22) on 7 NFL stadiums, involving truck mounted radiological dirty-bombs. Something like 40 posts on a variety of boards. He's been charged under federal law.

(in reply to WyrdRich)

Post #: 7

RE: Idiots, and the edge of freedom - 10/22/2006 11:06:57 AM

WyrdRich

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A valid point LAM, I probably should have labeled this as a rant against whiners and conspiracy nuts.

The 'idiots?' The grocery clerk would be one. The guy who decides to make a 'statement' in the presence of the President but forgets he has a hash pipe in his pocket and gets busted. People who make their statement as much to piss people off as to express what they actually believe.

< Message edited by WyrdRich -- 10/22/2006 11:17:10 AM >

(in reply to Lordandmaster)

Post #: 8

RE: Idiots, and the edge of freedom - 10/22/2006 11:45:00 AM

juliaoceania

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quote:

It's not about whether or not they are watching. The times we live in and the technology available pretty much make that inevitable. I'd be pissed off if phone calls to Pakistan WEREN'T being monitored.

Yeah, technology gives them a right to spy on me for nothing... 1984 demonstrated that

quote:

As for domestic groups being checked out, well duh.

Not 'well duh', you should have to DO something wrong before the government does something to you, not just "think negative thoughts about government"

quote:

Most are sincere people seeking a peaceful change.

Yes, so their only crime is being antiwar, that merits following them around from yardsale to yardsale and then to a grocery store (as happened to me)

quote:

A few go past that and would do violence to achieve their goals.

Those people should be arrested and charged with crimes, and even investigated preemptively if a citizen reports them as planning a crime, but everyone they know and talk to should not be implicated and spied upon, just the ones implicated in some plot after the government has gotten a warrant for these communications.

quote:

I believe the gov't (under any administration) has an obligation to know the difference.

Repeatedly it has been shown that a government given certain powers will abuse them and become tyrannical, especially when they have no one to answer to or judicial review process

quote:

A handy rule of thumb when dissenters meet to organize is to assume the most radical person in the room is some variety of cop.

Yes... we have to always be aware that there will be some agent provocateur around... what a sad commentarty about our government that people are not outraged by that

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

(in reply to WyrdRich)

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RE: Idiots, and the edge of freedom - 10/22/2006 11:45:23 AM

Sinergy

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quote:

ORIGINAL: WyrdRich

I believe the gov't (under any administration) has an obligation to know the difference.

So much for innocent until proven guilty.

"People who would trade liberty for security deserve neither."
Benjamin Franklin

Sinergy

edited because I got my founding fathers mixed up again.

< Message edited by Sinergy -- 10/22/2006 11:50:17 AM >

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"Every so often you let a word or phrase out and you want to catch it and bring it back. You cant do that, it is gone, gone forever." J. Danforth Quayle

(in reply to WyrdRich)

Post #: 10

RE: Idiots, and the edge of freedom - 10/22/2006 9:17:30 PM

Archer

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Not knowing what group you were with, and not asking here, but the truth of the matter is many of the groups that claim totally peacefull, have cross over memberships with grroups who are not. There is a possibility that you were being checked out because other members of both your group and a group who is not "totally peacefull" where being investigated and they wanted to make sure you were not in both a peacefull group and one that was not.

Possible reason All of the groups in seatle claimed tottaly peacefull and yet the city was trashed during the World Bank Meeting wasn't it a few years back. That is not to say the group had violent intent as a group but some of them obviously had violent members. How many members of PETA are also members of ELF (???).
One group PETA could be considered peacefull while the other group has set fires, bombed labs, etc.
If the local PETA and ELF chapters share a couple members then it would be expected that they would check out many of the PETA members for cross membership as well.

Can't say it was the case you were involved in, but can see possible reasons you might have been checked on.
I'm not saying they should bug your phone or go through your trash or anything like that just because one is a member of the group, But to follow you around in public violates no law at all.

(in reply to Sinergy)

Post #: 11

RE: Idiots, and the edge of freedom - 10/22/2006 9:26:20 PM

juliaoceania

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I cannot begin to tell you how chilling that is for free speech and freedom of association, but unless and until you are followed around you have no concept of what that is like. Especially when this cretin in the white house wants to be able to disappear people

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

(in reply to Archer)

Post #: 12

RE: Idiots, and the edge of freedom - 10/22/2006 9:33:54 PM

Archer

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The question is simple for me really though, If they know Jack is involved in a violent group, and Jack is a member of both groups and Jack speaks to you at a meeting of the peacefull group, what kind of investigator would not follow you for a little while to see if you were also involved in the non peacefull group?

(in reply to juliaoceania)

Post #: 13

RE: Idiots, and the edge of freedom - 10/22/2006 9:45:55 PM

juliaoceania

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Well I am supposing that Jack would have his phone bugged and his communications bugged.

BTW I had no close friends among this organization, it was featured in Michael Moore's 911 movie... Peace Fresno. All I ever did was show up to protests and to conferences open to the public. I never even talked on the phone with any member of the group. I would go to their website to find out what was going on and attend protests and conferences. I was an ancillary member. You can google the rest of the story

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

(in reply to Archer)

Post #: 14

RE: Idiots, and the edge of freedom - 10/22/2006 9:50:38 PM

sissifytoserve

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Oh come on now.

Its "american" to be WIRETAPPED, SPIED ON AND labeled a "suspectected Terrorists" in Bush's new "Homeland".

All part of the new freedom the terrorists hate so much.

But the BORDER stays wide open.

_____________________________

A great mind must be androgynous
Samuel Coleridge

The uniting of the feminine and the masculine is the highest form of human development Carl Jung

(in reply to juliaoceania)

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RE: Idiots, and the edge of freedom - 10/22/2006 9:53:52 PM

Archer

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As I started my replies with I wasn't asking nor was I trying to justify a specific case just offering a possible reasonable explination, only knowing your side of the story and not being privy to the investigator's reasons leaves the rational outsider unable to know if your case was justifiable survellence or not.

Was it an abuse of power, I don't know nor can I make any sort of reasonable judgement. Would I feel the same justifiable upset at being under survellence when I had done nothing that I knew of to warrant it, Certainly I would.

But I am also aware that a chance meeting with a criminal that I do not know is a criminal, nothing more than a passing hello can easily be a justified reason for taking a look at me.

(in reply to juliaoceania)

Post #: 16

RE: Idiots, and the edge of freedom - 10/22/2006 10:18:29 PM

juliaoceania

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Encountering a person at a rally or conference is not a reason to follow someone... and that is all I did

I have seen things happen to people that attended a conference at my university (I did not go to this one has I was really busy) which had invited speakers that had been arrested for eco-terrorism. The speaker had been convicted of something or other. They took pictures of the students that went to hear him speak... you can google that under Fresno State and controversy and ecoterrorism. It was a huge deal at my university... so all you have to do to have the government watch you is be in college and attend a conference basically.

They did this during the Vietnam Era and the McCarthy Era... all during the Cold War... and they wanted these powers back to spy on people, compile lists.

If you google Joesph Lieberman, and Lynn Chenney... list of UnAmericans you will find that they have compiled a list of professors they want to ruin because they are not Red White and Blue enough. Some of my professors were in college during the Cold War, and remember the targetting of beloved professors because they wanted to teach Marxist theory....many people lost their jobs over that.

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

(in reply to Archer)

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RE: Idiots, and the edge of freedom - 10/22/2006 10:41:02 PM

UtopianRanger

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quote:

But the BORDER stays wide open.

I find it abominable that we have people here saying they are okay with wire taps and spying on activist groups, yet when the fact is brought up that this administration has done absolutely nothing to re-vamp / upgrade any kind of external security measures, they say NOTHING. It's clearly the difference between being told ''what to think'' vs. learning ''how to think''

- R

_____________________________

"If you are going to win any battle, you have to do one thing. You have to make the mind run the body. Never let the body tell the mind what to do... the body is never tired if the mind is not tired."

-General George S. Patton

(in reply to sissifytoserve)

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RE: Idiots, and the edge of freedom - 10/22/2006 10:42:36 PM

juliaoceania

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Bravo UR!

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

(in reply to UtopianRanger)

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RE: Idiots, and the edge of freedom - 10/22/2006 10:46:21 PM

UtopianRanger

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quote:

If you google Joesph Lieberman, and Lynn Chenney... list of UnAmericans you will find that they have compiled a list of professors they want to ruin because they are not Red White and Blue enough. Some of my professors were in college during the Cold War, and remember the targetting of beloved professors because they wanted to teach Marxist theory....many people lost their jobs over that.

Don't forget to add Daniel Pipes and David Horowitz - They're almost as bad as Lynn Chenney.

- R

< Message edited by UtopianRanger -- 10/22/2006 10:55:03 PM >

_____________________________

"If you are going to win any battle, you have to do one thing. You have to make the mind run the body. Never let the body tell the mind what to do... the body is never tired if the mind is not tired."

-General George S. Patton

(in reply to juliaoceania)

Post #: 20

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