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RE: definitions - 1/31/2005 8:08:58 AM   
TallDarkAndWitty


Posts: 1893
Joined: 6/12/2004
From: Rochester, NY
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: jillwfsub4blkdom


Isn't the bottom line truly it matters not what we call ourselves but how our Masters view us.


I suppose that very much depends on the context. When you are home and alone, it doesn't really matter what you call yourselves, or how you see yourselves. Yet when you are part of a community, and in particular a community that is rather misunderstood by the rest of the world, the bottom line might very well be how we are seen and understood.

Taggard

_____________________________

A most rewarding compliment is an insult from the ill-informed.


My slave: Kat (RainaVerene on the other side) and her website: RainaVerene.com

(in reply to jillwfsub4blkdom)
Profile   Post #: 21
RE: definitions - 1/31/2005 8:33:48 AM   
TallDarkAndWitty


Posts: 1893
Joined: 6/12/2004
From: Rochester, NY
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: SirTyson

So let me ask you this then, say you do standardize the two words. What happens then with new comers who see your definitions and dont feel they fit into one definition or the other.


Well, you wouldn't just define those two terms. You would create a hierarchy of definitions. The broadest level: Tops, bottoms, sensualists. Each of those broad levels would then be broken down to subcategories. (Tops: Masters, Owners, Trainers, Sadists, etc. Bottoms: Slaves, Submissives, Pets, Littles, etc. Sensualists: Festishists, Exhibitionists, Self-bondage players.) A taxonomy of the lifestyle would be developed and maintained.

quote:


I think that would only put them off on to learning about the lifestyle.


Hmmm...in my experience, those who think they belong in the lifestyle won't let some words stop them from exploring.

quote:


Not only do you want to standardize the words, but if you do it doesnt stop there.


Yes, isn't that great!

quote:


What's next, does everyone now have to conform and change themselves to fit into one definition or the other? You'll never get a majority of people to agree on the definitions of these words.


That's the funny thing about words, you don't need a majority of people to agree on anything. All you need is a good reference work and some consistent use. Did a mojority of people agree on the definitions as penned by Noah Webster? Nope. Yet, people quote him everyday. All he did was say, perhaps we can't agree on what these words mean, but let's agree to have a place where we can make them mean only one thing.

quote:


Where does it end??


It doesn't...and that's a good thing. Language is constantly expanding and growing and changing. If it didn't, dictionary publishers would be out of a job.

quote:


And why is it just the definitions od a sub and a slave. You could make the same case about what is the difference between a Master and a Dom. So then we have to make firm definitions of those and then conform to those meanings as well?


Oh yes, of course. All of the roles would have to be defined and standardized. Yet, people wouldn't conform to the words, they would simply use the words to describe themselves. If there wasn't a word that described what they did, they wouldn't use an already existing word and have it mean something else. They would use a combination of other words, or they would create a new word. Language is cool like that...

quote:


To me, and it seems like others here as well, it doesnt matter what others think , all that's important is what the two people in the relationship think.


That certainly is one way to look at it, and if you don't wish to belong to a community, it is quite sufficient. I, however, think words are worth more when more people use them the same way. To each his own.

Taggard

_____________________________

A most rewarding compliment is an insult from the ill-informed.


My slave: Kat (RainaVerene on the other side) and her website: RainaVerene.com

(in reply to SirTyson)
Profile   Post #: 22
RE: definitions - 1/31/2005 8:41:42 AM   
TallDarkAndWitty


Posts: 1893
Joined: 6/12/2004
From: Rochester, NY
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: dark~angel


As for myself... I get by quite happily as a unique individual. I have no 'need' to belong - as I already do.



Not sure what you are saying here. Are you saying you already belong, so your need to belong is satisfied? Or are you saying you don't have a need to belong, but you belong anyway, just for kicks? *smile*

Taggard

_____________________________

A most rewarding compliment is an insult from the ill-informed.


My slave: Kat (RainaVerene on the other side) and her website: RainaVerene.com

(in reply to darkinshadows)
Profile   Post #: 23
RE: definitions - 1/31/2005 8:43:08 AM   
ProtagonistLily


Posts: 1222
Joined: 12/27/2004
Status: offline 		Taggart my friend,

Once I wanted to sit down and really discuss your paperwork fettish. Thanks to this thread, I now fully understand it ;)

Lily

_____________________________

"Be who you are and say what you feel because those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind"
~Dr. Seuss~

(in reply to TallDarkAndWitty)
Profile   Post #: 24
RE: definitions - 1/31/2005 8:44:04 AM   
TallDarkAndWitty


Posts: 1893
Joined: 6/12/2004
From: Rochester, NY
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: ShadeDiva
Then again, I have NO issue with it taking more work or effort for me to really know what someone is telling me and actually taking the time to make sure I'm comprehending what they mean to be conveying. I never thought communication was meant to be easy or quick though, so maybe it's in one's philosphies/concepts on what language should accomplish or do that makes that difference.


On an indiviual to individual level, I have no issue with these thoughts. When representing a group, however, others might not be willing to give the kind of time it takes to really understand what is going on. Confusion leads to mistrust, which can lead to aggression.

Taggard

_____________________________

A most rewarding compliment is an insult from the ill-informed.


My slave: Kat (RainaVerene on the other side) and her website: RainaVerene.com

(in reply to ShadeDiva)
Profile   Post #: 25
RE: definitions - 1/31/2005 8:52:16 AM   
darkinshadows


Posts: 4145
Joined: 6/2/2004
From: UK
Status: offline
quote:

Not sure what you are saying here. Are you saying you already belong, so your need to belong is satisfied? Or are you saying you don't have a need to belong, but you belong anyway, just for kicks? *smile*


lol... lets just say.... none of the above?

If Ya askin'... (which Ya did)

Its not about belonging or satisfaction, its about being myself. I don't belong, because I do not have that need. I am part of something bigger than just 'belonging'.
I, quite simply, am.(and enjoying every damn fine moment)

_____________________________
.dark.



...i surrender to gravity and the unknown...

(in reply to TallDarkAndWitty)
Profile   Post #: 26
RE: definitions - 1/31/2005 9:06:15 AM   
TallDarkAndWitty


Posts: 1893
Joined: 6/12/2004
From: Rochester, NY
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: dark~angel

I don't belong, because I do not have that need. I am part of something bigger than just 'belonging'.
I, quite simply, am.(and enjoying every damn fine moment)[/center]


So you grow your own food and collect your own fuel? You are not a citizen of any nation and you do not enjoy the protection of any fire or police department? You live in a cave and don't belong to any groups what-so-ever? Somehow I doubt it...

Quite obviously, you have joined this rag-tag team of posters on CollarMe...why? You certainly seem to belong here...

You may not realize it, but you take advantage of some group dynamic each and every day. If we didn't work together, there would be no phone service, or grocery stores, or shopping malls. Try living truly on your own for even a week before you tell me that your state of being is something bigger than "belonging." We are all part of some group...and by playing our part we make the group strong.

Taggard


_____________________________

A most rewarding compliment is an insult from the ill-informed.


My slave: Kat (RainaVerene on the other side) and her website: RainaVerene.com

(in reply to darkinshadows)
Profile   Post #: 27
RE: definitions - 1/31/2005 9:53:57 AM   
darkinshadows


Posts: 4145
Joined: 6/2/2004
From: UK
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: TallDarkAndWitty

So you grow your own food and collect your own fuel? You are not a citizen of any nation and you do not enjoy the protection of any fire or police department? You live in a cave and don't belong to any groups what-so-ever? Somehow I doubt it...

Quite obviously, you have joined this rag-tag team of posters on CollarMe...why? You certainly seem to belong here...

You may not realize it, but you take advantage of some group dynamic each and every day. If we didn't work together, there would be no phone service, or grocery stores, or shopping malls. Try living truly on your own for even a week before you tell me that your state of being is something bigger than "belonging." We are all part of some group...and by playing our part we make the group strong.

Taggard



lol... You really know whats coming next, don't you?

I have lived alone(and for more than a week). I have done the 'self sufficiant' thing... lolol... but hey...I'm not going there... lets just say its a life experience.

You have a big thing about 'belonging'... which is great for you. If you need to belong to a group or a faction and it floats your boat... then I applaude you for walking the path you have chosen. But its not up to you to decide what others feel or are... that would be forcing ideas upon someone, and I am sure you are not trying to do that.

I do not have a need to 'belong' to anything. I visit this room to read and share ideas, not to belong. I join an archary club because I want the experience... I swim because its fun and it keeps me healthy. Not to belong to some clique or group. I am having this discussion with you because its something I want to do and respect you enough to reply, not because I want to belong to some little group or trying to impress or fit in.

You think I belong here? Or is it that its just another learning process I am experiencing? Hmm....Or maybe I do not belong here, but Collarme 'belongs' to part of my world? (whooooh... now thats getting too deep)

You may take advantage, I utilise.
If theres no one to man the phones, I wouldnt use them... if I had to kill my own food to survive, I would. If the fireman rush to my aid in a fire, I am thankful, but I wouldnt take advantage and be selfish enough to think they belong to me alone. If this website went down... then, I move on.

It isnt up to me to make someone or something else stronger, yet if I was asked to help and I was able, then I would. But not to make something stronger, but because, I am able.

Peace and Love

_____________________________
.dark.



...i surrender to gravity and the unknown...

(in reply to TallDarkAndWitty)
Profile   Post #: 28
RE: definitions - 1/31/2005 2:53:12 PM   
TallDarkAndWitty


Posts: 1893
Joined: 6/12/2004
From: Rochester, NY
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: ProtagonistLily
Once I wanted to sit down and really discuss your paperwork fettish. Thanks to this thread, I now fully understand it ;)


You do??? Mind explaining it to me?

Taggard

_____________________________

A most rewarding compliment is an insult from the ill-informed.


My slave: Kat (RainaVerene on the other side) and her website: RainaVerene.com

(in reply to ProtagonistLily)
Profile   Post #: 29
RE: definitions - 1/31/2005 2:57:41 PM   
TallDarkAndWitty


Posts: 1893
Joined: 6/12/2004
From: Rochester, NY
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: dark~angel

lol... You really know whats coming next, don't you?
I do not have a need to 'belong' to anything. I visit this room to read and share ideas, not to belong. I join an archary club because I want the experience... I swim because its fun and it keeps me healthy. Not to belong to some clique or group. I am having this discussion with you because its something I want to do and respect you enough to reply, not because I want to belong to some little group or trying to impress or fit in.



This sounds much like what an alcoholic says when asked if they "need" to drink. Of course they do not "need" to drink, they just like the taste. Or they can stop at any time. You don't "need" to belong, you just do because you like it. Well, the simple truth is most humans need to belong, and you seem far too social to be an exception...*smile*

Taggard

_____________________________

A most rewarding compliment is an insult from the ill-informed.


My slave: Kat (RainaVerene on the other side) and her website: RainaVerene.com

(in reply to darkinshadows)
Profile   Post #: 30
RE: definitions - 1/31/2005 3:06:02 PM   
darkinshadows


Posts: 4145
Joined: 6/2/2004
From: UK
Status: offline
lol...

nawwww... I dont belong... I just draw belongings...

_____________________________
.dark.



...i surrender to gravity and the unknown...

(in reply to TallDarkAndWitty)
Profile   Post #: 31
RE: definitions - 2/1/2005 2:13:44 PM   
SirTyson


Posts: 126
Joined: 12/8/2004
From: Chicago, Il
Status: offline 		First if you are going to reference something you should know what it is your referencing. Noah Webster did not create new words and define then for everyone to agree on.

as per http://noahwebsterhouse.org/biography.html

quote:

When Noah was 43, he started writing the first American dictionary. He did this because Americans in different parts of the country spelled, pronounced and used words differently. He thought that all Americans should speak the same way. He also thought that Americans should not speak and spell just like the English.

Noah used American spellings like "color" instead of the English "colour" and "music" instead " of "musick". He also added American words that weren't in English dictionaries like "skunk" and "squash". It took him over 27 years to write his book. When finished in 1828, at the age of 70, Noah's dictionary had 70,000 words in it.

Noah did many things in his life. He worked for copyright laws, wrote textbooks, Americanized the English language, and edited magazines. When Noah Webster died in 1843 he was considered an American hero.


Another words he used existing words and standardized them for spelling, porunciation, and how to use them.

quote:

Hmmm...in my experience, those who think they belong in the lifestyle won't let some words stop them from exploring.


Not everyone who starts of learning about the lifestyle feels they belong in the lifestyle. For someone who is new and see definitions for sub and slave as you put it, might not feel they fit into either and it would deter them from learning more about who they are or the lifestyle. And if you would like to really get technical about this, then it can already be said the two words are already defined as per Websters Dictionary.

Slave:
1 : a person held in servitude as the chattel of another
2 : one that is completely subservient to a dominating influence
3 : a device (as the printer of a computer) that is directly responsive to another

Submissive:
1 a : to yield oneself to the authority or will of another : SURRENDER b : to permit oneself to be subjected to something <had to submit to surgery>
2 : to defer to or consent to abide by the opinion or authority of another

So now there you have it, the words are defined. So are you saying you dont agree with those and now want to make your own definitions just for the lifestyle. And why is it so important to you that this lifestyle be accepted by society? I think you more then anyway according to your posts feel the need for acceptance and to "belong".


(in reply to TallDarkAndWitty)
Profile   Post #: 32
RE: definitions - 2/1/2005 5:53:56 PM   
TallDarkAndWitty


Posts: 1893
Joined: 6/12/2004
From: Rochester, NY
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: SirTyson

First if you are going to reference something you should know what it is your referencing. Noah Webster did not create new words and define then for everyone to agree on.

[snip]

Another words he used existing words and standardized them for spelling, porunciation, and how to use them.



Dude, did you really read what either I wrote, or what you cut-and-pasted from that website?

I said that Webster took words that people used in different ways and he wrote a reference work in which he standardized and defined them. Nowhere did I say he made up words. Nor did I ever suggest that we make up words to describe the roles in BDSM. I simply suggested we come up with standardized, obective definitions.

quote:


Not everyone who starts of learning about the lifestyle feels they belong in the lifestyle. For someone who is new and see definitions for sub and slave as you put it, might not feel they fit into either and it would deter them from learning more about who they are or the lifestyle.


So having no definitions is going to make them feel welcome? I'm afraid not...

quote:


And if you would like to really get technical about this, then it can already be said the two words are already defined as per Websters Dictionary.

Slave:
1 : a person held in servitude as the chattel of another
2 : one that is completely subservient to a dominating influence
3 : a device (as the printer of a computer) that is directly responsive to another

Submissive:
1 a : to yield oneself to the authority or will of another : SURRENDER b : to permit oneself to be subjected to something <had to submit to surgery>
2 : to defer to or consent to abide by the opinion or authority of another


Would you want to use Webster's dictionary when discussing legal terms? (Not likely, you'd prolly use somthing like Blacks Dictionary of Legal Terms.) Why would you defer to it when discussing BDSM terms. What we need is a BDSM dictionary.

quote:


So now there you have it, the words are defined. So are you saying you dont agree with those and now want to make your own definitions just for the lifestyle. And why is it so important to you that this lifestyle be accepted by society? I think you more then anyway according to your posts feel the need for acceptance and to "belong".


If you don't understand, then you prolly aren't very open about your interest in the lifestyle. I am out. I post my name and phone number and address on my website. I want this lifestyle to be accepted by the mainstream because I don't want to live my life in the shadows. I am proud of who, and what, I am and I don't want to pretend I am not.

Taggard

_____________________________

A most rewarding compliment is an insult from the ill-informed.


My slave: Kat (RainaVerene on the other side) and her website: RainaVerene.com

(in reply to SirTyson)
Profile   Post #: 33
RE: definitions - 2/1/2005 5:58:44 PM   
ProtagonistLily


Posts: 1222
Joined: 12/27/2004
Status: offline
quote:

What we need is a BDSM dictionary.



FYI http://www.sagacitygroup.net/main/kinkbits/dictionary_new

Lily

_____________________________

"Be who you are and say what you feel because those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind"
~Dr. Seuss~

(in reply to TallDarkAndWitty)
Profile   Post #: 34
RE: definitions - 2/1/2005 6:10:19 PM   
SirTyson


Posts: 126
Joined: 12/8/2004
From: Chicago, Il
Status: offline
quote:

Did a mojority of people agree on the definitions as penned by Noah Webster?


That very much sound to me like you are implying they were his definitions, and they weren't. They were words that already had meaning just being used improperly or pronounced differently.

quote:

Nor did I ever suggest that we make up words to describe the roles in BDSM.


Ok, lets look at one of your earlier posts...

quote:

If there wasn't a word that described what they did, they wouldn't use an already existing word and have it mean something else. They would use a combination of other words, or they would create a new word.


So you are contradicting yourself now?

quote:

So having no definitions is going to make them feel welcome?


I not having definitions or trying to label people and telling them that those words or what you make them, what you and your Dom/Domme...Sub/Slave..agree upon.

quote:

If you don't understand, then you prolly aren't very open about your interest in the lifestyle. I am out. I post my name and phone number and address on my website. I want this lifestyle to be accepted by the mainstream because I don't want to live my life in the shadows. I am proud of who, and what, I am and I don't want to pretend I am not.


You dont know me so dont judge me and say Im probably not open about my interests in the lifestyle. If you are out thats your choice and good for you, if I or other are or are not, then thats our choice. It doesnt mean we are pretending to be something we're not.

I think this has been a very educational and interesting topic for all, let's not start trying to get personal now as Ive seen you try to do with dark~angel. Whether you approve of how any of us live our lives or the lifestyle is irrelevant. Let's not go there and stick the the subject.

< Message edited by SirTyson -- 2/1/2005 6:12:36 PM >

(in reply to TallDarkAndWitty)
Profile   Post #: 35
RE: definitions - 2/1/2005 7:06:43 PM   
SirTyson


Posts: 126
Joined: 12/8/2004
From: Chicago, Il
Status: offline
quote:

I am out. I post my name and phone number and address on my website.


It doesnt say anything about you being in the lifestyle. I can post my information on the web also, doesnt mean Im out.

< Message edited by SirTyson -- 2/1/2005 7:07:30 PM >

(in reply to TallDarkAndWitty)
Profile   Post #: 36
RE: definitions - 2/1/2005 7:41:14 PM   
Paulnz


Posts: 411
Status: offline 		Funnily enough, you know when you meet them which is submissive and which is slave. I know that doesn't help much.


(in reply to steelsheath)
Profile   Post #: 37
RE: definitions - 2/1/2005 8:19:29 PM   
proudsub


Posts: 6142
Joined: 1/31/2004
From: Washington
Status: offline
quote:


What we need is a BDSM dictionary.


This might help: lifestyle definitions

_____________________________

proudsub

"Without goals you become what you were. With goals you become what you wish." .

"You are entitled to your own opinions but not your own facts"--Alan Greenspan


(in reply to ProtagonistLily)
Profile   Post #: 38
RE: definitions - 2/1/2005 8:22:32 PM   
SirTyson


Posts: 126
Joined: 12/8/2004
From: Chicago, Il
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: proudsub

quote:


What we need is a BDSM dictionary.


This might help: lifestyle definitions


I knew proud would jump in here sooner or later with a link :)

Thank you proud!!

(in reply to proudsub)
Profile   Post #: 39
RE: definitions - 2/2/2005 7:27:05 AM   
TallDarkAndWitty


Posts: 1893
Joined: 6/12/2004
From: Rochester, NY
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: ProtagonistLily

quote:

What we need is a BDSM dictionary.



FYI http://www.sagacitygroup.net/main/kinkbits/dictionary_new

Lily


While interesting, I think it is still far too vague in many of its definitions. It defines slave as "Often interchangable with submissive" which is simply unacceptable to someone who is actually interested in consensual slavery.

Where are the definitions of "littles" and "Owners" and "Trainers".

Sorry, but I find this dictionary sadly lacking.

I may just have to do a Noah Webster and write my own...

Taggard

_____________________________

A most rewarding compliment is an insult from the ill-informed.


My slave: Kat (RainaVerene on the other side) and her website: RainaVerene.com

(in reply to ProtagonistLily)
Profile   Post #: 40
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