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sidcoryell -> home for abused subs and slaves (1/31/2005 1:03:16 PM)

hi i was talking to a sub the other day and almost decided that i wanted to open a home for abused subs and slaves to help them escape the abuser. it would not have to be a physical abuser but thats the most comon types. but it could also be mental abuse. however heres the problem i have no facility to house the people that i know i would get nore would i have a sub/ mate to assist me nor do i have the funds to take on a project like that with out help. if anyone has any ideas or would like to contributte please let me know because i know a number of subs/slaves n my area that i can help if i had a place to shelter them 24/7



RiotGirl -> RE: home for abused subs and slaves (1/31/2005 1:17:52 PM)

Access Denied



sub4hire -> RE: home for abused subs and slaves (1/31/2005 1:23:01 PM)

quote:

it would not have to be a physical abuser but thats the most comon types.


I wouldn't say that. Many who mentally abuse don't even have a clue they are doing it.
Physical abuse is outward. How many of us have low self esteem? How do we get low self esteem? It isn't because one day we just wake up that way. It is because those around us gave it to us in one way or another. That is abuse as well.
I'd start with support groups. If you could create a self esteem support group I'm sure in time you'd be a lifestyle pioneer. It is something other's have asked of me for many year's. I just don't have the time to do such. Also recruiting your first group could very well be a challenge. People tend to not want to admit they have poor esteem.
Or don't even realize it.

Anyway, I'd agree with Riotgirl. Most shelters are funded by government grants. Which also means they are watched over very carefully.
It is a system, if you truly want to do it you can make it happen. It will be an uphill battle for a while.
In the end it would be all worth it.



jesseniaDL -> RE: home for abused subs and slaves (1/31/2005 1:24:50 PM)

where are you located?



thnkiwntaspank -> RE: home for abused subs and slaves (1/31/2005 2:05:44 PM)

Actually, women's shelters do not receive special "supervision" by the authorities whether they receive a grant or not. Typically, local authorities are aware of the shelter's existence, but often because there is a high degree of abusers who are in law enforcement, only certain people within that jurisdiction are aware of its location.

I can see where it might be more difficult for a woman in these circumstances to escape her abuser, although in all the circumstances it can be extremely difficult.

If they want to leave, they would be accepted at any woman's shelter. The issue which that would cause is that the counseling these women would receive at the shelter would not be taking into account the lifestyle which they have chosen.

Even if you were to start a shelter specifically for this kind of abuse situation, it could prove very difficult to find appropriate counselors as this is very much a specialized kind of situation and counselors would not likely be counselling them on how to continue in future relationships of the same nature, but rather how to leave the life entirely.

Support groups could prove very difficult as well, since it is unlikely that these women would be permitted to attend.

Another possibility would be if other couples were willing to volunteer to shelter these women. Now before everyone gets their panties in an uproar over this....it seems that this would require the volunteering Master or Dom to violate "protocol" and might essentially be seen as "stealing" the slave/sub from another. The reality, as I see it, is that once the situation becomes abusive, it is no longer consensual, the contract is no longer valid (the validity of which is legally non-existent anyway), which makes the woman free to leave. In situations like this, everyone involved puts themself at some risk. Personally, I would not have a problem giving this kind of assistance, but not everyone feels as I do. However, it seems that "fostering" an abused slave/sub is an option that would be much easier to achieve.



LordODiscipline -> RE: home for abused subs and slaves (1/31/2005 3:07:09 PM)

Question:

Whyn is a battered women's shelter not sufficient?

Why is the community's assistance not good enough?

I have seen several of these places started as a means of picking up the abused by people without any of the necessary training to support them (business, pychological, and/or medical).. so, I am always more than a little skepticle about:

1. The need beyond the regular places one might go

and,

2. The motivations of the people who want to start on, or, claim to have one.

~J



topcat -> RE: home for abused subs and slaves (1/31/2005 3:40:14 PM)

quote:

2. The motivations of the people who want to start on, or, claim to have one.


Sir-

Funny- that was the first thing that occured to me. What a great sitution for the right (wrong) guy- a whole shed full of emotionally vunerable women with low self esteem and nowhere else to go.

Not that I think thats the case with M. Sidcroyell- I think his KSA just go all on top of his sense for a moment<g>.

Stay warm,
Lawrence



thnkiwntaspank -> RE: home for abused subs and slaves (1/31/2005 3:46:11 PM)

LordODiscipline:

A batter's women shelter would certainly take these women in, and could provide assistance. Where they would not be sufficient is because the counselors involved in these shelters are counselling women who were at all times abused against their will, not a situation where there were past incidents of "punishment" or "discipline" or "forced activities" that were acceptable, but then things went "too far". That is a unique type of situation for those counselors and they are not likely equipped to deal with it. So while I would certainly still recommend these places to any woman in need, there are areas where they will fall short of being able to adequately help.

As for the community...which community? The one in which they live, which will undoubtedly not understand the "special" circumstances involved here, resulting in serious criminal charges against her Master, or the BDSM community in which she also lives, where the people involved DO have understanding of her situation and are therefore better equipped to help shelter and offer necessary protection?

I, too, am skeptical about the motivations some might have in starting such a "safe" house. It could very easily be a way to create a situation where the abused are now simply transferred (sort of) to a place where hopefully the "Master" might treat them better.

The "need" might arise in this situation because of the circumstances surrounding the BDSM culture and the "outside" community's inability to understand all the intricate details that could be involved.

This is why I suggested some type of "fostering" by others in the BDSM community. I believe that situations arise where a slave might be being abused by a master and need to escape. In those situations, I think that the slave's needs would be better served within the BDSM community in which she is familiar.



LordODiscipline -> RE: home for abused subs and slaves (1/31/2005 5:18:20 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: thnkiwntaspank
A batter's women shelter would certainly take these women in, and could provide assistance. Where they would not be sufficient is because the counselors involved in these shelters are counselling women who were at all times abused against their will, not a situation where there were past incidents of "punishment" or "discipline" or "forced activities" that were acceptable, but then things went "too far".


But, we are talking about people who are physically and mentally abused... despite the reason.

Yes, I understand the point you are making. I am simply choosing to ignore it, because it is counter-indicative that:

1. We would do any better than the authorities at:
a. establishing such a place that would be safe and secure
b. Finding enough people who are abused within the lifestyle to make it worthwhile (and, before we talk the subjective determinants of the web's tales, please reconsider doing so -I have heard about enough alleged abuse to fill a third world nation's morgues with no cooberating evidence available)
c. Would have the support of local organizations (in my opinion a necessity to establish the veracity and a modicum of control over people who would use it as their own happy hunting grounds)
2. That could be considered to be qualified in the area of assisting people in the areas of:
a. psychological assistance
b. medical assistance
c. monitary assistance to help them get re-established
3. The monetary means and the amount of people that would be necessary to continue such an endeavor - no matter the altrusitic determinants, there is always an end concern about who will pay for what.

and, if it is to the extent that criminal charges hould be pressed, we are faced with the victim leaving their area od domicile and destroying that potential - as I am going to assume that we are talking about a single national clearinghouse in order to meet the means for #3.

Anyhow - I appreciate your intentions. Obviously I have had this discussion in the past with people (and,with people who are portraying their assinine self serving needs as altruisitc intent - one states that his 'submissive help network' was estalished in Austria in the 1920's and is secret and only female submissives know about it - albeit he was a male dominant and in charge - go figgya)

~J




LordODiscipline -> RE: home for abused subs and slaves (1/31/2005 5:20:24 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: topcat
Funny- that was the first thing that occured to me. What a great sitution for the right (wrong) guy- a whole shed full of emotionally vunerable women with low self esteem and nowhere else to go.


LOL.. Lawrence - great and perverted minds think?

You as well -although it is nothing like last week!

~J



mistoferin -> RE: home for abused subs and slaves (1/31/2005 5:44:53 PM)

Here is a link that might help. These folks have been running just such a shelter in the Michigan area for a number of years now. They may be able to tell you how to go about starting and what is needed.

http://www.immediatefamily.org/



RiotGirl -> RE: home for abused subs and slaves (1/31/2005 6:04:07 PM)

Access Denied



thnkiwntaspank -> RE: home for abused subs and slaves (1/31/2005 7:04:35 PM)

Not surprisingly, you misunderstood what I said. I indicated that these women most certainly could, and if necessary SHOULD escape to a safe house in their community. But, like it or not, while yes they are physically/mentally abused, no matter what the circumstances, the context in which the abuse has occurred is far beyond the capabilities or understanding of the counselors at an "ordinary" women's shelter. The counselors at such a place are typically abuse survivors, and these women would have a great deal of difficulty understanding that type of situation. Having worked with that community in the past, I can assure you of this fact.

My suggestion that if someone knew of a situation where abuse was occurring to offer a "safe" place for them to go invalidates your arguments about the monitary needs almost entirely. Most decent people, presented with this type of situation would help a friend in need for the amount of time it would take to help the abused get back on their feet. My suggestion was that people within that IMMEDIATE community step up to assist, not some type of nationwide clearinghouse.

As for the lack of cooberating evidence regarding abuse in situations such as this...Considering the fact that at any given time, one of these women might have bruises or marks on them, you are right that it would be hard to distinguish between those that are consented to and those that are not. However, the only other person likely to be able to cooberate the consent or lack thereof is not likely to step forward, as they are likely to be the abuser. In a "no limits" Master/slave relationship, who gets to decide what is abuse?

Aside from the link which mistoferin provided, any counseling which this victim is going to receive is going to be counseling to help her learn self-esteem and understand that love does not involve any kind of violence. Is this my personal belief? No, but it is the belief of 99.99% of the counselors that they would come in contact with, as those counselors are not schooled in the BDSM lifestyle or what it means other than it is a psycho/sexual deviance created out of self esteem issues and childhood traumas. If you can find acceptable college or doctorate level textbooks and studies that indicate otherwise, I would be very surprised.

As for your "theory" regarding the potential for criminal charges once the victim leaves the area? Totally baseless. Leaving the area does not prohibit anyone from filing the necessary charges against the perpetrator of a crime. And just for your personal knowledge, when someone is aware of a crime being committed and takes no action, in most states, that is also considered a crime called misprision of felony.

Everyone might also like to think about the fact that if these women do start to go to the authorities regarding abuse, the BDSM scene is going to start getting a great deal of publicity, none of it good. If efforts within the community are made to protect and help the victims, the situations will be resolved in a manner that will not cause upheaval to all. It is not unusual for groups to "self-police" themselves when outside involvement might bring turmoil to the groups beliefs. In a situation such as described in this post, how long would the abusive master be able to function once word got around about what he was?



suberic -> RE: home for abused subs and slaves (1/31/2005 7:09:37 PM)

Just to be perverse here, we are not only speaking about FEMALE subs, what about the male subs being abused by a dom/me? It happens regularly in the vanilla world, and would happen with even more regularity in a D/s situation. So when the male sub goes to the shelter, and is now surrounded by all these women, will he get help or be marginalized because he has a penis like happens now in the vanilla shelters?



NATI -> RE: home for abused subs and slaves (1/31/2005 7:15:02 PM)

quote:

, too, am skeptical about the motivations some might have in starting such a "safe" house. It could very easily be a way to create a situation where the abused are now simply transferred (sort of) to a place where hopefully the "Master" might treat them better.


This would need to be started up as a legitimate 501 (c) (3) non-profit. A 501 (c)(3) non-profit has a plethora of policy and procedures that they must have and must enforce for residential programs, halfway houses, shelters etc to gain licensure.

these programs are audited. They are answerable (particualrly if they offer ANY mental health services) to the department of health and other agencies that police the mental health field. this is to prevent just these kinds of abuses from taking place. there are laws up the wazoo for any non-profit residential facility offering mental health services.

If this kind of program is launched, there will need to be a board of directors that is elected and there will need to be a program director to oversee operations. There will need to be counselors, and attendants, and probably a hotline number. Any facility will have to adhere to strict guidelines for everything from building code, to bed linens and they WILL be inspected.

By the way - what is the purpose of this shelter? Is it a halfway house program? Usually halfway houses have a time limit of some kind in place, and they offer a variety of case management services to help people get back on their feet - everything from assistance in finding a job, to locating housing to finding childcare services for moms re-entering the workforce. With shelters for domestic violence there are a whole slew of issues to contend with. There are very often court dates to be gotten through, and restraining orders that have to be obtained.

Will the women be allowed to continue working? Many shelters INSIST that women leave their current jobs because numerous attacks/slayings happen en route to, or from, or within the workplace. Wow.

This is a BIG, BIG deal. Please be aware of what you are proposing. I am not saying that you are not aware, but if this is really something you want to do - you have a whole lotta work ahead of you. The place to begin though, is with your mission statement. Come up with that, and find your backers. Write some grants. Above all - do your homework. Laws vary, and you will need to make sure that you are in compliance with local, state and federal laws.

Good luck.





thnkiwntaspank -> RE: home for abused subs and slaves (1/31/2005 7:16:56 PM)

With the solution I suggest, it is not gender-biased at all. I'm sorry suberic for leaving out the men, it is just the conversation started with a situation with women, and just stayed that way.



mistoferin -> RE: home for abused subs and slaves (1/31/2005 7:25:47 PM)

Having worked as a counselor in the domestic violence/substance abuse field for 7 years I have to agree with thnkiwntaspank on this one. The women who work in community centers are primarily volunteers who have been in abusive situations themselves. They are not educated in alternative lifestyles and quite frankly could not begin to comprehend the dynamics involved. I can think of several occasions when a client was involved in a lesbian relationship and I can tell you that even that was more than most could relate to.

The link that I posted is an organization run entirely by lifestyle people. I know the people involved firsthand and can tell you that they help countless women.



mistoferin -> RE: home for abused subs and slaves (1/31/2005 7:33:10 PM)

suberic....by no means did I mean to exclude men from the equation. Men are frequently abused and in many ways it is harder for a man to obtain help. Many times it is due to the fact that men are typically more embarassed to ask for help as society has deemed them to be the stronger sex. The link that I gave in no way discriminates against gender, their services are for all submissives and slaves that find themself in a physically or mentally abusive situation. Sorry for the slight, it was unitentional.



LordODiscipline -> RE: home for abused subs and slaves (1/31/2005 8:22:54 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: thnkiwntaspank
Not surprisingly, you misunderstood what I said.


Ok it is always possible, I am lysdexic some times.

quote:

I indicated that these women most certainly could, and if necessary SHOULD escape to a safe house in their community.


I discussed both possibilities.

quote:

But, like it or not, while yes they are physically/mentally abused, no matter what the circumstances, the context in which the abuse has occurred is far beyond the capabilities or understanding of the counselors at an "ordinary" women's shelter. The counselors at such a place are typically abuse survivors, and these women would have a great deal of difficulty understanding that type of situation. Having worked with that community in the past, I can assure you of this fact.


They deal with abuse - is it such a stretch to think that they would be knowledgeable about abuse and consensual behavior... but, then again - they are not there to judge these women (I thought that was the credo - do not judge their lives, assist them)?

quote:

My suggestion that if someone knew of a situation where abuse was occurring to offer a "safe" place for them to go invalidates your arguments about the monitary needs almost entirely.


So - no money is required to run such a place, to incorporate it as a non-profit or to pay the people who are on as councelors, to feed the people, to lend them the necessary clothing or money to get on their feet again?


quote:

Most decent people, presented with this type of situation would help a friend in need for the amount of time it would take to help the abused get back on their feet.


I seldom depend on the kindness of strangers... and, the need always exceeds the resources as you would know being involved in such an endeavor in the past.

quote:

My suggestion was that people within that IMMEDIATE community step up to assist, not some type of nationwide clearinghouse.


The "clearinghouse' idea was a means of consolidation to assure the support of the community would not exceed the many places that would be required should it be set up as individual places in most major population areas. That it is not your consideration of this point, indicates an unrealisitic expectation that there are:

1. enough of these abused peoples out there to make it worthwhile nationwide in individual houses in all major population centers (and, no demographics with any validity to support this), and,
2. That the 'deep pockets' that would allegedly support the endeavor are bottomless.

That seems a bit irrational.

quote:

As for the lack of cooberating evidence regarding abuse in situations such as this...Considering the fact that at any given time, one of these women might have bruises or marks on them, you are right that it would be hard to distinguish between those that are consented to and those that are not.


I was referring to the sensational stories that all web sites are rife with - and, when the salient questions are asked as to what police station, what news paper, what mortuary might be contacted to cooberate the story - are suddenty met with silence and excuse. The soap opera of the internet churns out many great stories.

quote:

However, the only other person likely to be able to cooberate the consent or lack thereof is not likely to step forward, as they are likely to be the abuser.


Under the domestic voilence laws in 39 states consentuality is not a consideration for any marks found on a person - so cooberation is a simple polaroid and a police report.

quote:

In a "no limits" Master/slave relationship, who gets to decide what is abuse?


The idiotic idiom "no-limits" has no relational value to abuse when it crosses the threshold of damage that is non-consensual. When someone leaves such a relationship, they have decided what is abuse defacto and despite these "no-limit" rules, nes pas. So - it has not relational value in this discussion.

quote:

Aside from the link which mistoferin provided, any counseling which this victim is going to receive is going to be counseling to help her learn self-esteem and understand that love does not involve any kind of violence.


We preach that 'love' (another loaded statement) may include violence... what is the hypocracy of this contrarian rhetoric on this forum?

quote:

Is this my personal belief? No, but it is the belief of 99.99% of the counselors that they would come in contact with, as those counselors are not schooled in the BDSM lifestyle or what it means other than it is a psycho/sexual deviance created out of self esteem issues and childhood traumas.


Gotcha... perhaps that is what they need if this did not work for them then. But, the fact is - you would still need KAPs to be in place for this venture. Otherwise, these people would have to suffice for the emotional triage involved.

quote:

If you can find acceptable college or doctorate level textbooks and studies that indicate otherwise, I would be very surprised.


there are more than a few KAPs that can provide such references and papers - there are quite a few out there.

quote:

As for your "theory" regarding the potential for criminal charges once the victim leaves the area? Totally baseless.


This was based ont he national 'clearinghouse' theory of operation for this place. Leave the area of domicile and you cannot press charges without being there again. And, if you are to get these people help - and, they are out of the area, then you would have them return? Seems pretty shakey therapy to me.

quote:

Leaving the area does not prohibit anyone from filing the necessary charges against the perpetrator of a crime.


So you can file a charge in California from Arizona?


quote:

And just for your personal knowledge, when someone is aware of a crime being committed and takes no action, in most states, that is also considered a crime called misprision of felony.


If we are talking felony consipiracy, it requires foreknowledge of intent and/or an attempt to cover up the crime afterwards.

quote:

Everyone might also like to think about the fact that if these women do start to go to the authorities regarding abuse, the BDSM scene is going to start getting a great deal of publicity, none of it good.


So - the effort them is not to protect these people, but to engender more through the non-reporting of the perpetrator, leaving them on the street in order to assure that they have more opportunity to persue their victim and/or find another one?

quote:

If efforts within the community are made to protect and help the victims, the situations will be resolved in a manner that will not cause upheaval to all. It is not unusual for groups to "self-police" themselves when outside involvement might bring turmoil to the groups beliefs.


name one time that this has been done effectively and with assurance of no recitivism on the perpetrator's part and absolute assurance for the victim. I have heard this argued before... it is nonsense.

quote:

In a situation such as described in this post, how long would the abusive master be able to function once word got around about what he was?


With the advent of the internet? Forever.

Change your name and simply find someone else.

~J



NATI -> RE: home for abused subs and slaves (1/31/2005 8:31:51 PM)

quote:

what about the male subs being abused by a dom/me? It happens regularly in the vanilla world and would happen with even more regularity in a D/s situation.


Society marginalizes male victims of domestic violence, and it does this by providing men with precious few resources that they might turn to when they are in crisis or need. This is a problem to approach your state legislators with. This is a problem that should be lobbied for. This is a problem because domestic violence is truly devastating in what it can do to people - male or female.

Men are stigmatized for this in our culture because 'it's not supposed' to happen to them. What kinda man would let a chick knock him around?

A sub is exquisitely vulnerable. Female or male. Gay, lesbian or bi. TG'd. By definition, a sub is vulnerable. Any sub who has been victimised by a dom/domme needs to be treated with empathy and compassion. And they all need to be taken seriously.

quote:

So when the male sub goes to the shelter, and is now surrounded by all these women, will he get help or be marginalized because he has a penis like happens now in the vanilla shelters?


You are talking about a residential facility full of people who have just been traumatized and battered by someone who is MOST LIKELY a member of the opposite sex. The preponderance of victims who end up in a DV shelter are women.

*PLEASE NOTE*

I am not negating same sex victims of DV and nor am I negating men who have been battered and/or abused by women. It DOES happen.

The average man is typically larger and often MUCH larger than the average woman. In the scenario you depict, like it or not - the sub is going to be seen as a threat. Post traumatic stress is what it is. It is there and it is real. And in THIS setting ALL of these women are going to be suffering from some degree or other of post traumatic stress. I would think that in this situation, because this is SUCH a volatile and traumatic thing for everyone - co-ed facilities would be a lousy idea.

In this hypothetical scenario with this proposed facility, it would be possible to have dorms (like college campus dorms) that are separated. sleeping areas, kitchens, livingrooms and bathrooms etc would be divided. And perhaps there is one great room or common area where men and women can meet. I might suggest running a male only group, a female only group, and then a co-ed group. In the co-ed group men can talk about how and why they feel like they are being shunted off to the side. Women can talk about why having the men there might feel scary. In this therapeutic setting the two estranged groups can begin to see how the 'other' might be affected, and begin to realize that the violence in domestic battery is absolutely colour blind when it comes to the sexes.

There are answers to these kinds of questions. If men ARE being marginalized, that need to be pointed out to the directors of the program. Change (particularly when it comes to public perception) is often agonizingly slow. But we should have no tolerance in our community for the marginalization of anyone in domestic crisis.




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