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RE: Letter to a Christian Nation - 11/2/2006 10:03:57 PM   
Lorelei115


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quote:

ORIGINAL: LuckyAlbatross

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lorelei115
Without valleys there are no hills. It has always been my observation that people don't know how good they have it until everything is taken away.

And I think that's BS- my nephews don't need to have their mother and father killed by plague in order to know how happy they had it with their parents alive.

I think we are going to have to agree to disagree here.


quote:


I never said anything about prayer. There are lots of reasons to talk to God even if He can't change things.

Such as? If god refuses to interfere on any direct level, it won't change anything.
Yup. You're right. I talk to God because it comforts me to know someone's listening. I've never known praying to God to change anything in anyone's life that they couldn't have changed on their own.

quote:

When I say "cannot" I don't mean not capable. I just mean it would be voiding the whole idea of our free will. And, no I don't think free will is just a Christian concept. Considering as not a paragraph above, you say the Christian God is NOT about free will, why do you say it is now?

I said that the christian god has OFTEN negated the concept of free will, and in fact does so on a regular basis with every disease and natural disaster and miracle that occurs.
I still dont buy into the Christian concept of God. And I don't think believing in free will makes me Christian, either. I think that "Not killing people" rule is pretty good, does that mean I have to swallow the whole dogma?
I will ask you again- WHY do you think the concept of "free will" exists and what purposes does it serve? Why do you think we need it? Why do you think a person needs to suffer in order to know happiness?
As I've stated before, I believe that free will exists so that we can learn from our experiences here. My observations of the human race has been that people don't really learn things well unless they experience them firsthand. If God didn't allow us the free will to make our own choices and mistakes, then life would just be a guided path from start to finish and we would learn nothing from it. I mean hell, maybe life IS a guided path and all God is doing is making us believe we have free will. *shrug*
And no, I don't think each and every person needs to suffer in order to know happiness. I myself have suffered very little in my life. (Does that make me a hypocrite to talk about others suffering? Maybe.) But I know what suffering is, because I have seen it in my fellow humans. I appreciate my life because I know what it COULD be. You mentioned the Biohazard sign earlier. Yes, you know enough to stay away from it, but what if it didn't exisist? You would have no concept of what it really was.
Also as I said before, this is nothing but my own belief system. I'm not trying to convert everyone, and I'm not saying I'm right and anyone else is wrong. I'm saying that THIS is the moral compass that I live by, this is the way that I see the world. Looking back at my original post, I do seem to have come off that way, for which I apologize. However I will make no apologies for the sentiments in it as they are my true feelings. I feel that God is a benevolent God, not some childish prankster who is trying to make us all miserable to no purpose.

BTW- LA... since you obviously don't agree with my beliefs, what DO you believe? I'm honestly curious, not being a smartass.









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RE: Letter to a Christian Nation - 11/3/2006 6:31:47 AM   
candystripper


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quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail

I find it rude and rather non-consensual that people would parade 'christianity' on a site that is supposed to be about tolerance--- knowing that there is a large contingent out here that either don't give a fuck or is of different perspective such as me and myu belief in Norse religion......and furthermore parade this as something that could be considered mainstream.........


By the One-Eyed, I am Disgusted!!!!
Braga


i tend to agree with mnottertail; i find it disturbing that when P/pl say "religion" at least in the USA, what T/they generally mean is "Christianity".  W/we do seem to have a tendancy to elevate Christianity and marginalise other religions.
 
Having said that, i went to various sites and read quotes from the book, etc.  i take Mr. Harris' point.  i think it needed to be made.  At the same time, it was hard not to feel he held me in disrepute for being Catholic.  It is this which bothers me most of all.
 
To me, O/one's religious beliefs are a private matter; injecting them into politics or elsewhere into public life just seems wrong.
 
candystripper








< Message edited by candystripper -- 11/3/2006 6:33:54 AM >

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RE: Letter to a Christian Nation - 11/3/2006 4:20:42 PM   
anthrosub


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quote:

ORIGINAL: candystripper
To me, O/one's religious beliefs are a private matter; injecting them into politics or elsewhere into public life just seems wrong.

 
This is precisely the sort of view the majority of moderates have that contributes to not being able to get at the problem.  This "hands off my beliefs" taboo protects the extremists and helps insulate any real critical discussion on a broader social level.
 
I'm reading Harris's first book now and he does a good job of laying out in clear terms exactly how this works.
 
An example:
 
"The problem that religious moderation poses for all of us is that it does not permit anything very critical to be said about religious literalism.  We cannot say that fundamentalists are crazy, because they are merely practicing their freedom of belief; we cannot even say they are mistaken in religious terms, because their knowledge of scripture is generally unriveled.  All we can say as religious moderates, is that we don't like the personal and social costs that a full embrace of scripture imposes upon us."
 
anthrosub

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RE: Letter to a Christian Nation - 11/3/2006 5:59:16 PM   
Chaingang


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quote:

ORIGINAL: anthrosub
This is precisely the sort of view the majority of moderates have that contributes to not being able to get at the problem.  This "hands off my beliefs" taboo protects the extremists and helps insulate any real critical discussion on a broader social level.


The intemperate religious right has declared cultural warfare on the rest of us that are more liberal and open-minded. We will not be allowed to "live and let live" - they want to declare by statute which lifestyles are acceptable and which are not in an attempt to get back to "god's law."

I recognize their position for what it is and I defend against their cultural warfare in kind. I do not practice tolerance such that it favors the intolerant. I treat them as they should be treated - with a mind to destroying them and every bullshit intolerant thing they stand for.

How could it be otherwise? There is no middle ground for freedom.


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RE: Letter to a Christian Nation - 11/4/2006 10:41:03 AM   
thompsonx


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quote:

ORIGINAL: anthrosub

All I can say is...No matter what you believe or don't believe.  Read it.  For those who don't like to read or haven't the time, it's only 95 pages long.  It's clear, to the point, concise, and absolutely no B.S.
 
anthrosub


anthrosub:
Good read...... I would also recommend "Why I am not a Christian" by Bertrand Russell

thompson

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RE: Letter to a Christian Nation - 11/4/2006 5:44:12 PM   
LTRsubNW


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quote:

ORIGINAL: anthrosub

All I can say is...No matter what you believe or don't believe.  Read it.  For those who don't like to read or haven't the time, it's only 95 pages long.  It's clear, to the point, concise, and absolutely no B.S.
 
anthrosub


My general presumption tends towards having a link...or a suggestion as to actual reading material.

(It's a preference).

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RE: Letter to a Christian Nation - 11/4/2006 7:23:54 PM   
Marc2b


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quote:

ORIGINAL: anthrosub

All I can say is...No matter what you believe or don't believe.  Read it.  For those who don't like to read or haven't the time, it's only 95 pages long.  It's clear, to the point, concise, and absolutely no B.S.
 
anthrosub


I stated earlier that the book sounded interesting and that I might order it.  Just wanted to let you know that I did order it from Amazon.  It will probably be a week before it gets delivered and I read it, but I'll let you know what I think.

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RE: Letter to a Christian Nation - 11/4/2006 7:26:33 PM   
mnottertail


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Status: offline 		well, when you aint falling on your ass to god, explain what a christian nation looks like, K? 

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RE: Letter to a Christian Nation - 11/4/2006 8:03:24 PM   
Lorelei115


Posts: 1933
Joined: 8/16/2006
From: Sin City
Status: offline 		You know... Collarme may not be a religious site... but if you perk your little ears up you can often hear this refrain in the distance... "Oh, god!!"



_____________________________

A sucessful life is not measured by what we do
But by the realization
Of who we are.

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Profile   Post #: 49
RE: Letter to a Christian Nation - 11/4/2006 8:20:07 PM   
mnottertail


Posts: 60698
Joined: 11/3/2004
Status: offline 		I hear the haunting refrains of that old negro spiritual........

What a freind we have in jesus,
christ almighty what a pal..........

it will be left to the casual observer to discern what Dr. King might have said


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Have they not divided the prey; to every man a damsel or two? Judges 5:30


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RE: Letter to a Christian Nation - 11/4/2006 8:38:58 PM   
NeedToUseYou


Posts: 2297
Joined: 12/24/2005
From: None of your business
Status: offline 		Just a general reply on the topic of religion.

I don't quite understand how one can expect others to respect ones religious beliefs as private and untouchable. Religion and faith in general whether formal, individual, or mix of  different religions affect the way a person thinks about most other topics in there lives(or is chosen because of the way they think). It would be like declaring you can't say anything bad about my politics simply because I would take it personally. It's odd on a site were everyday someone is harping on about the religious right and the effect they have on peoples lives via the outshoots of those religious beliefs that anyone could possibly hold the view that religious beliefs are beyond critisism.

I just don't get it.

Religion and faith effects thought, thought controls behaviour, and behaviour effects others. No religion or faith is beyond critisism.  How is a person to change the behaviour without examining the cause. That wall doesn't really exist for me, it's just the same as politics, ethics in general. You can't correct or change what you can't speak of.

If religion is off limits then how to fix the religious right or Islamic extremists? I believe nearly everyone hear disagrees with them. Or do you believe there actions have nothing to do with there religion. LOL.  And if one is religious and believes the religious right is wrong or any other religion is not correct, why would anyone at the same time hold their one faith beyond critisism.

What would that person be?

Probably typos and other grammatical errors to tired to check.




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RE: Letter to a Christian Nation - 11/4/2006 8:52:52 PM   
Marc2b


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quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail

well, when you aint falling on your ass to god, explain what a christian nation looks like, K? 


What? I’m not sure I get this. It sounds as though you saying that I am a Christian (and a right wing Christian at that, at least that is the feeling I get from the "tone" of what you said) and that I regard America as a Christian nation? And this apparently because of the title of the book in question? If so, that is a truly remarkable extrapolation and one based upon inaccurate data. The book, as I understand it, is about science versus faith with the author definitely on the pro-science side. Since science versus faith is one of the many things I am interested in, I thought it might be a good book to read. Then I’ll decide wether or not I agree with the author. If he makes a persuasive case, perhaps he’ll cause me to change some of my opinions. Most likely not, but perhaps. All of my opinions, values, beliefs, etc. are subject to change without notice. That’s called independent thinking, k?

Okay that last sentence was a little snide but it really raises my hackles when someone makes assumptions about my political/religious/etc., stances that are so far off the mark. First someone on another thread calls me a liberal (arrrrgh!) And now it looks like you are calling me a Christian Fundamentalist (arrrrgh!).

For the record I am not a Christian (I stated my religious belief in an earlier post on this thread), fundamentalist or otherwise. At least not with a capital "C." That is, I don’t believe the Bible is the word of God nor do I believe it’s major tenants. I do consider myself to be a small "c" christian. That is, I accept the fact that I was born into and raised in a culture that has been shaped and heavily influenced by Christianity. For example, I usually refer to the Creator as "God" and as "He," but that’s only because I grew up listening to everyone around me use "God" and "He" in relation to the Creator. Truthfully? I don’t know if the Creator is male or female or both or neither or something else all together. When God want’s me to know, He’ll let me know.


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RE: Letter to a Christian Nation - 11/4/2006 8:59:29 PM   
mnottertail


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Status: offline 		It was a general reply and not directed at you,  you just happened to be there when I answered. 

Nevertheless, I am of a faith that says change the name of sons of norway to sons-of-bitches, and slaughter the dogs, in the name of Odin, as the christians did us,  so there are probably not going to be any moments of give and take for such as you and me.....but the original thoughts I posted against you, were not directed at you, we heathens take a different outlook on cause and effect.

Ron


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RE: Letter to a Christian Nation - 11/4/2006 9:55:15 PM   
Marc2b


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quote:

It was a general reply and not directed at you, you just happened to be there when I answered.

Yeah, it appears that if you don’t click the "post reply" button at the bottom of the page, you are replying to whoever is directly above. I’ve done that and had people thinking that I was replying to them when I wasn’t.
quote:

Nevertheless, I am of a faith that says change the name of sons of norway to sons-of-bitches, and slaughter the dogs, in the name of Odin, as the christians did us, so there are probably not going to be any moments of give and take for such as you and me.....

Probably not because I don’t have the faintest fucking clue what you are talking about. I least I hope I don’t. It sounds as though you are advocating the slaughter of Christians.

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Do you know what the most awesome thing about being an Atheist is? You're not required to hate anybody!

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RE: Letter to a Christian Nation - 11/4/2006 10:25:05 PM   
mnottertail


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Status: offline 		Yes, there is no difference in christian or heathen when you make the death eagle on their back, tho christians are said to weep for their gods more............

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Have they not divided the prey; to every man a damsel or two? Judges 5:30


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RE: Letter to a Christian Nation - 11/4/2006 11:15:34 PM   
anthrosub


Posts: 843
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Status: offline 		Here's a point made in Harris's first book that is quite true and maybe will help those who don't understand the criticism religion (particularly Judeo-Christian and Islam) receives.
 
Imagine if we could bring someone from the 14th century back to life.  This person would appear to be a complete ignoramous on topics such as medicine, astronomy, and geography.  In the 14th century, holes were drilled in the skull of a sick individual to allow the evil spirits to escape, the world was still believed to be the center of the universe, and the new world hadn't been discovered yet.
 
But in regard to religion this person would seem quite well informed.
 
anthrosub

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RE: Letter to a Christian Nation - 11/4/2006 11:20:38 PM   
mnottertail


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Status: offline 		and they would stink something terrible, they would have a big pewiee on; being on the rot for some 400 years,  this does not overcome any inheirent  inertia on my part to commune with them............I am just not that liberal, sorry----


_____________________________

Have they not divided the prey; to every man a damsel or two? Judges 5:30


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RE: Letter to a Christian Nation - 11/5/2006 2:46:52 AM   
Zensee


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Rule

I have read the wikipedia article. It is my impression that Harris is a fool.



I only had to read this much to arrive at a strikingly similar conclusion.


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RE: Letter to a Christian Nation - 11/5/2006 4:27:28 PM   
Marc2b


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quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail

Yes, there is no difference in christian or heathen when you make the death eagle on their back, tho christians are said to weep for their gods more............


Uhmmmmm... What?  So is this a yes or a no on the whole slaughtering Christians issue?  I know I haven't been on these boards all that long so maybe I'm a bit behind the times but I'm beginning to suspect that you are one of those people who enjoy playing with other people's heads.  Either that or some form of substance abuse.  Seriously, I am begining to wonder.

< Message edited by Marc2b -- 11/5/2006 4:33:56 PM >

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RE: Letter to a Christian Nation - 11/5/2006 6:33:50 PM   
Zensee


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Status: offline 		Don’t worry Marc, Ron prefers to approach subjects obliquely and light them from behind. You get to add your own details to the silhouettes.

********************************

The CBC program Tapestry (clicky) had an interview with Sam Harris on Sunday. If you’d like a chance to hear it, check back HERE in a day or two and see if they post the RM file.

Harrris observed that while people may believe whatever they wish that does not mean everyone else has to refrain from criticism, especially when those superstitious beliefs contribute directly and overwhelmingly to unnecessary suffering. (My paraphrasing.)

One concern he expressed was the presence of citizen extremists representing powerful lobbies in Washington. Much of Bush’s policy on the middle east is inspired by lobbyists who believe that the second coming can only be achieved via WW3, starting with nuclear conflagration in Jerusalem and environs. God apparently needs help greasing the wheels of Armageddon and the UAS has been pressed into service by lunatics.

Another example of superstitious influence in Washington is Patrick Henry College, an unaccredited private school that provides the most and the highest proportion of interns to the Whitehouse. - Students are required to sign a statement of faith before they arrive, confirming, among other things, that "Satan exists as a personal, malevolent being who acts as tempter and accuser, for whom Hell, the place of eternal punishment, was prepared, where all who die outside of Christ shall be confined in conscious torment for eternity”.

*sigh*



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