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It takes money to make money.

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Pick an option? Heh. I'm for benevolent dictatorship.

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In the US, millions of people are similarily locked into their position for life. Not trapped by religion, but by their financial status.

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The same people that at one point are consider "poor" (and I think people use that word very loosely in this country) are middle class or higher (or lower if that's what they wish) 5 or 10 years down the road.

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How do you explain that immigrants who come to this country with nothing, in a few years are holding a good job (or a not so great one) or better yet have their own business and are doing well? I can tell you: good work ethics and good decision making

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The FICO score has nothing to do with how much downpayment you can afford. Furthermore: I have clients that with good, fair or even bad credit have bought their homes putting very little money down in the transaction (FHA can do miracles!).

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Thorns, I don't know where you are in life and that really doesn't matter, but judging by your attitude, you don't think you can get very far

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WHAT????!!!!! You don't really think this way...you're just trying to piss people off ... If everybody thinks this way this country would be bankrupt.

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First, the gov. has to take money away from citizens to finance its operations. In the picture you paint taxes would be a LOT higher. Why do you think is fair that you should take money from JOHN, who works, saves, invest, and studies to give to MIKE, who doesn't work, buys cigarrettes and beer (or shops), and watches TV all day and on top of it all thinks he deserves to spread his genes and reproduces. Does that seem FAIR to you????

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ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth

Mr. Thorns,
Damn, I agree with most of this post, and the disagreements are insignificant or perspective differences. What fun is that!!

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The point is, WORK, Dedication, and not looking for or expecting a hand out got me in a better position. Over the course of time, I've found that when people are given 'crutches' of financial aid they use them, and expect them to be there forever.

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... they are relying of someone else to take on that responsibility. Sometime in the 70's EVERYONE had to succeed. I think that social problems started when people were not allowed to fail. Now that disease is permeating the public school system. "'Johnnie' would be too traumatized if we keep him back a grade." So we pass him, and pass him and at 18 or so the school system responsibility ends and 'Johnnie' graduates without the ability to read, write a sentence, or do rudimentary math. But he 'succeeded', the school system 'succeeded', and Johnnie moves on to another 'enabling' system, the 'social services'. Or worse, Johnnie becomes the taxpayers 'dependant' in the prison system. The solution is obvious to me - LET PEOPLE FAIL. They'll know and appreciate success. And more importantly they will know the hard work it takes to achieve it.

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Pick an option? Heh. I'm for benevolent dictatorship.

If it wasn't me - I'd vote for you. Problem is most benevolent dictators evolve into something 'completely different'.

Hope to meet you someday at a CollerMe convention!

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ORIGINAL: iwillserveu

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Are you sick of being pigeonholed into a simplistic and insufficient liberal/conservative label? I know I am. Take this simple test to determine where you stand in a 'marginally' less simplistic political spectrum.

www.politicalcompass.org

my results:
Economic Left/Right: -3.13
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -7.00


Best,
Joshua

The questions are a tad bit slanted, I think. Try another quiz

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ORIGINAL: MrThorns

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In the US, millions of people are similarily locked into their position for life. Not trapped by religion, but by their financial status.

How is this statement false? I'm not saying everyone is locked into their position in life by their financial status. I'm saying that there are millions of people in this country who are. Are your trying to say that everyone has the same opportunity? Hmmm. Lets experiment.

Child A lives in rural Missouri and works on the family farm. He attends the local public school. The school scores below the national average on the required AIMS tests, so the school doesn't receive as much funding for equipment and teaching materials. He would like to attend college, but feels an obligation to continue to support the family farm.

Child B lives in the suburbs of Kansas City, Missouri and works a part time job selling computers at a retail store. He attends a well respected private school and plans on attending college after graduation.

So, do you feel that these two people have the same opportunity? Sure, there are choices to be made by each individual, but you honestly believe that luck or fortune have absolutely no impact on their future?

***Luck or fortune may indeed have an impact, but that's part of life. I don't think there is a way to completely level the playing field for every citizen and if it were, where does it stop? Short people tend to get promoted less often than taller people of equal standing in education, experience and popularity. Ugly people get promoted less often than attractive people and overweight people get promoted less often than slim people. Regardless of whether or not it's equitable, it's clear to me, at least, that the government doesn't possess a magic wand.***

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The same people that at one point are consider "poor" (and I think people use that word very loosely in this country) are middle class or higher (or lower if that's what they wish) 5 or 10 years down the road.

What is your basis for that argument? First, I consider someone "poor" if the costs of their basic needs outweigh their income. Basic needs being food, shelter, basic utilities, medical care, taxes, transportation and insurance. So where does the middle class start? You can't assign a dollar amount to it, as $35.000/year in Phoenix, AZ goes a lot farther than $35,000/year in New York City.

***I think that it's basic economics. The majority of young adults start out at the bottom of the economic ladder, gradually increasing their earning power and living standards as they mature, gain promotions and learn to become more fiscally responsible. The supply of poor people is constantly replenished by the new young adults joining the workforce as well as those who endure economic setbacks. There is no underlying inequity in that equation.***

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How do you explain that immigrants who come to this country with nothing, in a few years are holding a good job (or a not so great one) or better yet have their own business and are doing well? I can tell you: good work ethics and good decision making

Are you speaking presently or historically? In both cases yes. Good judgement and a strong work ethic contribute greatly to their success. Historically, immigrants came to this country with nothing. We were in the industrial revolution. A skilled worker was something to be valued. Shopkeepers, craftsmen, and entrepraneurs flourished. Do you mean to tell me that immigrants coming to this country today can flourish in the same way? Hmm...lets try another experiment:

Immigrant A gets off the boat from the Old World and tries to secure a small business loan from the local bank to establish a small corner market. A quick run of their credit comes back with nothing. Not enough credit history. Okay. So do you think that they will get the loan?
Just for shits and giggles, lets say the loan miraculously goes through. He sets up shop and starts making a little money. Then the 3rd Super Wal-Mart in a 5-mile radius sets up across the street. How long do you think he will stay in business? Trades aren't as valued as they once were. We have degenerated into a service based economy, which I believe is reflected by the enormous trade defecit. (I'm not blaming Bush for that, btw...as hard as it is for me not to...)

***Yeah, it still happens. Access to credit is not the only enabler of wealth creation or even a necessary one, despite your earlier assertion. It doesn't truly require a bankroll to create a prosperous business. Ask anyone who's learned a trade or started a landscaping bussiness with one $20 used lawnmower. Drive means much more than luck as any self-made person can attest to and there are plenty out there who will walk out the door tomorrow on their way to making their first fortune.***

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The FICO score has nothing to do with how much downpayment you can afford. Furthermore: I have clients that with good, fair or even bad credit have bought their homes putting very little money down in the transaction (FHA can do miracles!).

You're right. I didn't say that I FICO score had anything to do with how much downpayment you can afford. I said that those without the 20% downpayment pay more for the same property at a higher rate of interest.
FHA can do miracles, if you qualify. Is the property FHA approved? Will the seller pay the nonreocurring closting costs? If not, the lender will and it will result in an increase to your interest rate. Do you meet the 38% debt to income ratio required for an FHA loan? Ever been late on a student loan? My point was that things are cheaper for those with money. A person with a good FICO score and 20% down will pay less for the property than a person with a bad FICO score and 3% down.

***Having money doesn't make the house cheaper, it makes it faster. The folks who save up for that twenty percent downpayment pay the same price as the folks who inherit it. It comes back to a choice. Do I rent and save until I have the down payment or pay the premium to go FHA right now? People who choose to buy on credit make a choice of instant rather than delayed gratification and pay a monetary price for doing so.***

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Thorns, I don't know where you are in life and that really doesn't matter, but judging by your attitude, you don't think you can get very far

Your powers of deduction are...well...staggering. I'm not sure what you think my attitude is, but I assure you that I am very happy with the successes I have experienced as a result of living in a country like the United States. As far as I am concerned, I live a blessed life and wouldn't trade it for anything. I do wish that others who are less fortunate than myself could have the same opportunities that I had.

***Anecdotal evidence aside, there are no inherent limitors at work that prevent anyone from succeeding in this country. There are folks who play fair and those who don't, on the individual level, but the system is not at fault. Work hard, save for what you want, prioritize wisely and the world is your oyster.***

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WHAT????!!!!! You don't really think this way...you're just trying to piss people off ... If everybody thinks this way this country would be bankrupt.

LOL! I don't play the "trying to piss people off game". I truly believe this.

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First, the gov. has to take money away from citizens to finance its operations. In the picture you paint taxes would be a LOT higher. Why do you think is fair that you should take money from JOHN, who works, saves, invest, and studies to give to MIKE, who doesn't work, buys cigarrettes and beer (or shops), and watches TV all day and on top of it all thinks he deserves to spread his genes and reproduces. Does that seem FAIR to you????

You missed my point. I'm not talking about welfare. I think welfare is broken and should be fixed by having the cash award decline over a period of time. Example: You lose your job, you go on unemployment. The amount of unemployment you receive starts out at 80% of your gross earnings from the previous year. Every 6 months, the amount you receive declines by 20%. If you find work that pays less than your previous emplyment, the unemplyment money will still be available, but only to cover the difference. The amount you receive will still continue to decrease over time.

What I WAS talking about was social security. The government taking a percentage of each taxpayers check and investing it wherever the taxpayer wants it to go. But it gets invested, period. The money you are currently paying social security...do you have a choice how it gets used? The money just disappears from your check. Wouldn't it be nice to be able to see how the money is working for you and know that it will be there for you when you choose to retire?

This conversation started because of some sweeping statements that I felt were generalizations and completely inaccurate. I believe that there are some serious problems with this country that are workable problems. The current economic strategies by liberals and conservatives alike are flawed, but because of partisan politics, we seem to be stuck in one school of thought or another.

~Thorns