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Master of "being" slave/submissive... - 11/4/2006 2:22:50 PM   
slavejali


Posts: 2918
Status: offline 		Ok, I'm standing on my head at the moment looking at the world upside down, or perhaps the world was always upside down and I am now seeing it correctly...

Do you think its possible for a slave to be a Master?

These are my thoughts on it:

I was just thinking a moment or two ago, there are two types of submissives (slaves within a bdsm  D/s M/s context).

1. One shows itself through a weakness of character, basically because of some trauma within themselves, or some failing within themselves that just allows them to be dominated by any breeze that comes their way. Could be from past abuse, or lack of self worth, or a multitude of others reasons....these types of slaves would feel passionate about their submission because with so little sense of self they are actually like leaches needing to suck the blood outa a dominant type to sustain life and give them a sense of identity.

2. The other shows itself through strength of character and through knowledge of them selves. They willingly open themselves to the possibility of a D/s M/s dynamic through recognising that a very powerful dynamic within relationship can be had when two opposite forces exchange. This kinda slave(submissive) never really sees themselves as somehow "less" than the dominant partner....but a complimentary unit for the relationship dynamic. The types of slaves/submissives are passionate about the slavery/submission because its an expression of them self.

I think type 1 slave/submissive can never really be slave(submissive) to anyone, cuz they are already a slave to their misconceptions and their history and to their weak or injured mind. No matter how it appears to be....

I think type 2 slave/submissive can truely come into contact with what it is to be slave(submissive) and so actually be one for a partner. I think, this type of slave/submissive can be this cause in some regards they have mastered them "self"...come home to them "self"...and so are in fact...a "Master" them "self". ...and its this self that can submit.....hehe

What are your thoughts on this? (I think the blood is rushing to my head).

Addition: By the way, I guess in the above context a Master could be a slave too hey

Btw, Anyone can reply....and when I say Master I'm meaning any dominant type, Mistresses too...this is not gender specific...

< Message edited by slavejali -- 11/4/2006 2:30:25 PM >

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RE: Master of "being" slave/submissive... - 11/4/2006 2:39:41 PM   
Kalira


Posts: 954
Joined: 10/9/2006
From: Fort Wayne Indiana
Status: offline
quote:

2. The other shows itself through strength of character and through knowledge of them selves. They willingly open themselves to the possibility of a D/s M/s dynamic through recognising that a very powerful dynamic within relationship can be had when two opposite forces exchange. This kinda slave(submissive) never really sees themselves as somehow "less" than the dominant partner....but a complimentary unit for the relationship dynamic. The types of slaves/submissives are passionate about the slavery/submission because its an expression of them self.

Hmm, I would normally say that this is the category that I fit into, with one exception. The fact that I DO see myself as LESS than Master. He is my owner. I am property. I am not his equal.

quote:

  1. One shows itself through a weakness of character, basically because of some trauma within themselves, or some failing within themselves that just allows them to be dominated by any breeze that comes their way. Could be from past abuse, or lack of self worth, or a multitude of others reasons....these types of slaves would feel passionate about their submission because with so little sense of self they are actually like leaches needing to suck the blood outa a dominant type to sustain life and give them a sense of identity.

This one I have problems with also for the simple reason that trauma does not equal no self worth. I am probably misunderstanding what you wrote here, but that was the take that I got from your words.

With that being said, YES, I do believe that a slave can be a Master. They can be a master to themselves and of themselves. Independence, self-confidence, intelligence, etc are all things that we learn to master within ourselves.

One of my favorite sayings is 'slaves have a backbone of steel hidden under a veil of submission"


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Facilius Per Partes In Cognitionem Totius Adducimur
We are more easily led part by part to an understanding of the whole.
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RE: Master of "being" slave/submissive... - 11/4/2006 2:42:24 PM   
medicalsub


Posts: 3
Joined: 12/26/2004
Status: offline 		Interesting that you brought up this topic as I was just discussing this with a friend earlier today.

In my opinion, while the type 1 slave you describe has value as a person, I don't see his/her submission having much value.  If said slave submits to anyone, why would a dominant feel that submission as anything special.  It is not coming from a place of choice or power, but is merely an automatic reaction.

The type 2 slave, however, has chosen to yield power to a particular person.  It means something.  It isn't just a habitual reaction.  It comes from a place of power and realization. 

I, personally, believe a power exchange relationship can only exist with the type 2 slave.  Type 1 just isn't in a postion where they are able to offer up any power as they have none.

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RE: Master of "being" slave/submissive... - 11/4/2006 2:45:13 PM   
slavejali


Posts: 2918
Status: offline
quote:

The fact that I DO see myself as LESS than Master. He is my owner. I am property. I am not his equal.


I guess my view on that is, who is to determine what is more or less valuable. Everything has value in its own right....so in that regard "Owner" or "Owned"...are both equally valuable...not more or less...make sense?

quote:

trauma does not equal no self worth


Agree, was just throwing in a few "or" "or" "or" possibilities...

Edited for stupid typo's

< Message edited by slavejali -- 11/4/2006 2:49:12 PM >

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RE: Master of "being" slave/submissive... - 11/4/2006 2:48:13 PM   
slavejali


Posts: 2918
Status: offline
quote:

where they are able to offer up any power as they have none.


Yeah, and I liked your use of the word "realisation"...exactly what I meant...

I pulled this part of your post up as a quote as I know people get bent out of shape over the word "power" ..just wanted to say I can understand what you meant there.

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RE: Master of "being" slave/submissive... - 11/4/2006 2:50:02 PM   
Kalira


Posts: 954
Joined: 10/9/2006
From: Fort Wayne Indiana
Status: offline
quote:

I guess my view on that is, who is to determine what is more or less valuable. Everything has value in its on right....so in that regard "Owner" or "Owned"...are both valuable...not more or less...make sense

It makes perfect sense, and I am sure that 99% would agree with you.You ask who is to determine what is more or less valuable? For obvious reasons, the only ones who can do that are the ones involved in the relationship itself.  So in that regard, I view myself as less

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Facilius Per Partes In Cognitionem Totius Adducimur
We are more easily led part by part to an understanding of the whole.
Seneca

Damnant Quod Non Intellegunt

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RE: Master of "being" slave/submissive... - 11/4/2006 4:38:07 PM   
LuckyAlbatross


Posts: 19224
Joined: 10/25/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: slavejali
Do you think its possible for a slave to be a Master?

Yes.

Though considering how many people think "switches" are already just confused or afraid...you're not likely going to get many to agree or understand how it's possible.

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RE: Master of "being" slave/submissive... - 11/4/2006 4:41:51 PM   
leakylee


Posts: 747
Joined: 7/2/2004
Status: offline 		Wow!! This really causes some mental gymnastics. I would like to propose a a couple of what if's that arent quite on, but that are still within the scope. First of all isn't it possible for there to be a combination of these two individual examples? When I say that, I know from both personal expeirence as well as from talking with others that those with a "submissive personality" tend to be a bit more open in some circumstances. Tend to give a bit more of themselves. They often will give so much of themselves that those within thier familes and thier inner circles just take advantage of what is offered, often failing to forget the price that comes to the said individual.

So in alot of ways this can set a person up for some trauma's. Not to mention that the dealings of life and sometimes the harshness can sometimes pound a bit out of you. But on the flip side of that the natural strength of character and resilence of some can surmount the hurts and find that inner understanding, that inner knowledge. So that in some ways the third is created through circumstance and self. Now this is just my own mental rambling of possibilites so there is no telling..hehe..

have a great weekend everyone..

love and light
Lee

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RE: Master of "being" slave/submissive... - 11/4/2006 5:10:24 PM   
empresschaos


Posts: 84
Joined: 10/23/2005
Status: offline 		Yup. You can be both. Just like you can be someone's boss, and someone else's employee, or someone's daughter and someone else's mother. I'm a Libra, sign of the scales, and an adamant switch. Go figure.

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RE: Master of "being" slave/submissive... - 11/4/2006 5:26:36 PM   
Powerman40


Posts: 510
Joined: 7/11/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: empresschaos

Yup. You can be both. Just like you can be someone's boss, and someone else's employee, or someone's daughter and someone else's mother. I'm a Libra, sign of the scales, and an adamant switch. Go figure.


I agree, Unless you understand the need or want to be a sub / slave, you cannot understand the need to be a Dom Domme/ Master Mistress. A good friend of mine who I love and adore recently told me.... there is not a Dom / Domme who has not experienced submissivness, and the same holds true for the other. I don't think this makes you a switch, I feel it makes you have deeper and more sincere respect and understanding of the needs of each other.

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RE: Master of "being" slave/submissive... - 11/4/2006 5:37:18 PM   
topcat


Posts: 1675
Joined: 1/31/2004
From: Tidewater, VA
Status: offline 		Excellent question-
 
to turn it further on it's head, I often feel that I am submitting to my role as a dominant in an interaction, and I do expect a slave to display a certain amount of mastery..

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RE: Master of "being" slave/submissive... - 11/4/2006 6:29:22 PM   
empresschaos


Posts: 84
Joined: 10/23/2005
Status: offline 		aah. Deeper understanding of the question. Yes, of course. If you haven't mastered yourself, how can you really give that control away?

No matter how hard a Dom punishes you, it is the slave or sub who is really controlling herself (or himself). If a sub has no real self control, no real mastery of their own desires and will, then that sub has nothing to offer a top.

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RE: Master of "being" slave/submissive... - 11/4/2006 7:58:56 PM   
KnightofMists


Posts: 7149
Joined: 7/29/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: topcat

Excellent question-
 
to turn it further on it's head, I often feel that I am submitting to my role as a dominant in an interaction, and I do expect a slave to display a certain amount of mastery..


Nods... I agree... we submit ourselves to a responsibility to a relationship.   We maybe a Dominant in the relationship.. but we submit our independent selves to this interdependent relationship.


PS... jali.. nice post
Those that are able to Master themselves as an independent self... In my opinion always submits more value to the interdependent relationship.

< Message edited by KnightofMists -- 11/4/2006 8:00:14 PM >

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RE: Master of "being" slave/submissive... - 11/4/2006 8:07:04 PM   
imtempting


Posts: 1280
Joined: 2/11/2005
Status: offline 		I show signs of both. I do have past issues which has molded me to the way I am but I also won't just let anyone dominate me. 

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RE: Master of "being" slave/submissive... - 11/4/2006 8:07:44 PM   
happypervert


Posts: 2203
Joined: 5/11/2004
From: Scranton, PA
Status: offline 		based on the way you are defining mastery of oneself, then then I think this applies to people in general whether or not kink is involved. Some people have "issues" that control them; others may have the same issues but can manage them by themselves so are not unlike those who have no issues at all.

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RE: Master of "being" slave/submissive... - 11/4/2006 8:51:02 PM   
FrankAr


Posts: 817
Joined: 10/1/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: slavejali


Do you think its possible for a slave to be a Master?


Btw, Anyone can reply....and when I say Master I'm meaning any dominant type, Mistresses too...this is not gender specific...


Greetings jali,

It has been a long time since we have spoken or I have spoken to Eric, grins.  Have to catch up when I visit your city...lol..

The bottom line, for me the answer is....no.

The reason is that you are either a Dominant/Master/Domme from the time you are born until the time you die.  If you want to change, then so be it, but then if you do, did you actually give your 150% to being a Master/Domme/Dominant/slave/submissive, did you really.  If you want to switch between the many methods because you want to experience it, then that is your choice, not mine. 

I just know that deep in my heart, you can be only ONE in your life, the rest are just your hobbies.....lol.

Be well and take care.

Master Frank Ar.


< Message edited by FrankAr -- 11/4/2006 8:52:02 PM >

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RE: Master of "being" slave/submissive... - 11/4/2006 9:42:19 PM   
Archer


Posts: 3207
Joined: 3/11/2005
Status: offline 		Within the History of the Leather community there have been many slaves who have "earned their cap/cover" The sign that one has achieved a level of Mastery that the club/ community recognizes. So not only can it happen in a philosophical manner but also as a matter of community recognition.

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RE: Master of "being" slave/submissive... - 11/5/2006 11:31:48 AM   
daddysprop247


Posts: 1712
Joined: 6/24/2005
From: DC Metro area
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: slavejali

Ok, I'm standing on my head at the moment looking at the world upside down, or perhaps the world was always upside down and I am now seeing it correctly...

Do you think its possible for a slave to be a Master?

These are my thoughts on it:

I was just thinking a moment or two ago, there are two types of submissives (slaves within a bdsm  D/s M/s context).

1. One shows itself through a weakness of character, basically because of some trauma within themselves, or some failing within themselves that just allows them to be dominated by any breeze that comes their way. Could be from past abuse, or lack of self worth, or a multitude of others reasons....these types of slaves would feel passionate about their submission because with so little sense of self they are actually like leaches needing to suck the blood outa a dominant type to sustain life and give them a sense of identity.

2. The other shows itself through strength of character and through knowledge of them selves. They willingly open themselves to the possibility of a D/s M/s dynamic through recognising that a very powerful dynamic within relationship can be had when two opposite forces exchange. This kinda slave(submissive) never really sees themselves as somehow "less" than the dominant partner....but a complimentary unit for the relationship dynamic. The types of slaves/submissives are passionate about the slavery/submission because its an expression of them self.

I think type 1 slave/submissive can never really be slave(submissive) to anyone, cuz they are already a slave to their misconceptions and their history and to their weak or injured mind. No matter how it appears to be....

I think type 2 slave/submissive can truely come into contact with what it is to be slave(submissive) and so actually be one for a partner. I think, this type of slave/submissive can be this cause in some regards they have mastered them "self"...come home to them "self"...and so are in fact...a "Master" them "self". ...and its this self that can submit.....hehe

What are your thoughts on this? (I think the blood is rushing to my head).

Addition: By the way, I guess in the above context a Master could be a slave too hey

Btw, Anyone can reply....and when I say Master I'm meaning any dominant type, Mistresses too...this is not gender specific...


first, not that it matters, but i find the above categorization of submissives/slaves to be highly offensive, as well as inaccurate. it's also a good representation of why so many submissives come into the lifestyle knowing in their heart that this is the path for them, yet doubting themselves because they are hearing at every turn that their type of submission is worthless, doormat-ish, unreal, something no Dominant would want, etc.

also, the perception that such submissives are the way they are due to past abuse experiences/trauma/issues/whatever, is false. some of us make the conscious choice to submit...it is what we WANT to do. and then others of us simply submit...it is what we MUST do, because it is just how nature made us. i fit in the latter category. oftentimes, being naturally submissive can lead to a life filled with abuse and pain, because your nature makes you especially vulnerable to such things. abusers tend to like easy victims. so this is why many of us have a horror story of two to tell, and why many of us are emotionally or mentally broken, have low self-esteem, etc. in short....we are not submissive because we were abused...we were abused because we are submissive.

with that aside, there are Dominants and Masters (wonderful ones) out there who find the first type of submissive to be highly valuable and precisely what they want and need. my Master is one of those rare birds. :) while i had allowed the opinions of the masses to effect me to the point where i too believed i had nothing of value to offer any Man...thinking, who could possibly want someone so dependent, so helpless, so powerless, so blindly submissive? ...He saw a rare and precious treasure, someone whose nature would allow them to meet his needs and desires exactly. He loves my vulnerability...loves protecting me...loves knowing that i am utterly dependent on him, even for my own survival. He doesn't want a slave who has "mastered" self.

other Dominants...likely most Dominants...want much the opposite in a submissive. type 2 fits their needs. and that's fine. there's a place for us all, each type of submission is equally valid, so why select one group to demean and villify?


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RE: Master of "being" slave/submissive... - 11/5/2006 5:17:17 PM   
slavejali


Posts: 2918
Status: offline
quote:

first, not that it matters, but i find the above categorization of submissives/slaves to be highly offensive, as well as inaccurate.


I think you've misunderstood the post to be offended by it.

In additon:  If someone made a statement like "People who have panic attacks in fast cars have a neurosis and aren't too wonderful passengers to have in a car with you"...I would see that statement as true for me, I wouldn't take offense, or try to defend it. Some things are just facts, as they are, learning to accept stuff as it is, even our quirks and neurotic tendencies is part of being healthy...however if I heard that statement and got all defensive over it....or trying to point blame in another direction....knowing it to be true...then ...something else is going on.....

quote:

it's also a good representation of why so many submissives come into the lifestyle knowing in their heart that this is the path for them, yet doubting themselves because .....(insert whatever blame you want here) 


That statement in itself is describing type 1 submissive/slave.


quote:

also, the perception that such submissives are the way they are due to past abuse experiences/trauma/issues/whatever, is false. some of us make the conscious choice to submit...it is what we WANT to do.


Some submissives are involved in D/s relationships because of past abuse some are not....I don't see what you have a problem with there. If they are, they are type 1, if they are not they are type 2.

Just to give you something to think about re these categories: I have had a very abusive past myself, yet at the point in my life I was introduced to bdsm, I was pretty much healed. I would fit myself into category 2 type submissive right now. Type 1 doesnt exist within me, no matter my past. Yet perhaps, just perhaps, it was my past that opened me up to these type of relationships and to be able to see/experience the other end of the spectrum. It's all good.

quote:

being naturally submissive can lead to a life filled with abuse and pain, because your nature makes you especially vulnerable to such things. abusers tend to like easy victims. so this is why many of us have a horror story of two to tell, and why many of us are emotionally or mentally broken, have low self-esteem, etc. in short....we are not submissive because we were abused...we were abused because we are submissive.


Yes, agree there,...and that is how I lived the first half of my life....I was like a lightbulb to attract an abusive personality..and did

quote:

we are not submissive because we were abused...we were abused because we are submissive.


Agree, I think again your misunderstanding my post.

quote:

with that aside, there are Dominants and Masters (wonderful ones) out there who find the first type of submissive to be highly valuable and precisely what they want and need. my Master is one of those rare birds. :) while i had allowed the opinions of the masses to effect me to the point where i too believed i had nothing of value to offer any Man...thinking, who could possibly want someone so dependent, so helpless, so powerless, so blindly submissive? ...He saw a rare and precious treasure, someone whose nature would allow them to meet his needs and desires exactly. He loves my vulnerability...loves protecting me...loves knowing that i am utterly dependent on him, even for my own survival. He doesn't want a slave who has "mastered" self.


That's the cool thing about bdsm "Different *strokes* for different folks".

quote:

other Dominants...likely most Dominants...want much the opposite in a submissive. type 2 fits their needs. and that's fine. there's a place for us all, each type of submission is equally valid,


This post wasn't about validising...one group or another. It was just talking about different personality types, kinda the underlaying dynamics of different relationships. Heck I know there are some Doms out there into blood letting *grin*

quote:

so why select one group to demean and villify?


On these boards its very hard to see and understand peoples intentions. My personality doesnt demean or vilify anyone, I am actually a really nice human being who just happens to have an inclination towards making an attempt to understand the human condition. I love the mysteries of life.

As a side note: Do you know your statement that pointed towards me demeaning and vilifying people was actually an attempt on your part to demean and vilify me? Projection is a very interesting thing, you should look into it sometime. (and to cover my ass on that one, I said that with tongue in cheek and with humorous intent).

Hope my response here has you feeling happier about this topic.(ahhh..that is if you ever check it again)

Cheers

_____________________________

Freedom in Bondage

Different Strokes for Different Folks

"I'll always have a *soft spot* for Sadists"

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RE: Master of "being" slave/submissive... - 11/5/2006 5:25:20 PM   
slavejali


Posts: 2918
Status: offline
quote:

If you want to change, then so be it, but then if you do, did you actually give your 150% to being a Master/Domme/Dominant/slave/submissive, did you really.  If you want to switch between the many methods because you want to experience it, then that is your choice, not mine. 


Dang!! I'm not changing or switching!! I am what I am and what I am needs no excuses (thats a song by the way).ehe.
and Hello to you. Yes we haven't been around much, life has got us by the horns, busy busy...but have been able to post a bit more lately...have missed it

The topic was kinda philosophical but applied to our choice of relationships and the dynamics...wasn't about any dilemma or anything...



_____________________________

Freedom in Bondage

Different Strokes for Different Folks

"I'll always have a *soft spot* for Sadists"

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