RE: "Everyone has limits."

RE: "Everyone has limits." (Full Version)

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KnightofMists -> RE: "Everyone has limits." (11/5/2006 5:08:19 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: KatyLied quote: I will say this, with the utmost respect, that I think that anyone that genuinely has no limits, has issues. Boy, I sat there a minute coming up with that . And they may need help. That's where I fit in all of this. I think it's good to have boundaries. I think it's a way of protecting ourselves (and those whom we are responsible for) and that is a good thing. It is interesting to hear how people get to a "no limits" mindset. I agree it is interesting. I think many have different defintions of what is in a the label "LIMITS" erin makes a good point of a person being physically limited etc. But to me I don't use "Limits" to indentifiy these time of issues. To me the term is "Boundaries" Boundaries to me are things that are imposed upon us. Not impose externally.. but imposed by the inherent nature of who we are and that it is not a choice for us. Limits I see as those issues that we impose upon ourselves. It is a choice. Unfortunately.. some of us fail to see by our own choices that we are indeed cause a limitation. I very much enjoyed what the OP shared... and indeed I really enjoy your depth of thought.. not to forget that she is a very attractive woman. But, it is here choice not to face the demons... It might very well be that to face them at one time in her life... she would of very much self-destructed... I would also say that sometimes limits are imposed upon us externally... the Master sets a rule.. an imposition of a limit... This is not much different than the actions of abuse that impose limits on the person. A limit of ones inabilty not to flinch when a hand is raised or a load voice is raised. The interesting aspect to consider is that some abuse can be so extensive and evasive to a person's psyche that what begins as choices evolves into boundaries of self-protection. Imagine a child that is drilled and punished and abused time and again for saying the simple word NO... the effects can be immense and those.. what once was a little girls choice not to say NO as means to protect themselves evolved into the psyche as boundary to protect one's Well-Being. I look at Celeste... and I see "No Limits" and I see alittle girl who has boundary nutured into her not limit those of authority over her. The world can be a fucked up place sometimes

Rover -> RE: "Everyone has limits." (11/5/2006 5:36:15 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth quote: "I don't relate and could never understand the process of the green/yellow/red ongoing performance appraisal of the scene. The evaluating process required by the bottom prohibits the experience from generating any passion." That's a rather narrow view of what safewords (or any communication) conveys... simple appraisal? I have not encountered this "in-scene appraisal", though evidently you have. Not sure why, but perhaps you would be well served to have asked. Rover, Try this argument; if you use a safe-word you have never dominated another person. You may think you are in charge, but by the very nature of a safe-word you ceded your ability to decide where the scene goes and/or when it stops. Narrow view? More like pragmatic without the diversion of semantic, or rationalization. You obviously have imbued a term with control over you. And for you, that must be the case, as I take you at your word. But for me, and I would say a great many other people, a safeword is simply communication. Don't call it a safeword if that term makes your skin crawl. It's still communication. What you as the Top do with the information communicated to you is still up to you. There's nothing to be insecure about in that. Experience is more credible than theory. I have a zero tolerance rule concerning safe-words, and have had many enjoyable experiences along the way. I would also have a zero tolerance for safewords, if they are used in the manner in which you have portrayed them (in-scene appraisal, for instance). But given that I have never experienced such a thing, nor witnessed such a thing, I'll rely upon you to explain (if you know) what motivates a bottom to appraise your performance during the course of a scene? Everything else you posted was backpedaling. You either can or can't rely on a DM for safety. If you can't, a dungeon is no more safe than an hotel room, your, or the other person's home. You'll leave it to a DM to judge the depth of the cut in knife play? It's even more amazing that you'd recommend a DM protect you more than yourself or the person you are playing. Backpedaling? Really? I didn't take it that way. As I stated previously, on several occasions, a DM can make a scene safer, not guarantee complete safety. I'm not sure why you would have such a difficult time with that statement. In the example you used, a DM cannot judge the depth of the cut in knife play, but they can judge that the rusty WWII souvenier you pull out of your toybag is inappropriate for use in a cutting scene. You're absolutely right that the two people MOST responsible for safe play are yourself and the person you're playing with. But you're absolutely wrong if you think that as a human being you're perfect and not capable of making mistakes, and that an extra set of eyes (or hands) is not valuable from time to time. Further to Jay Wiseman's study of scene related injuries... the number one injury to bottoms are head injuries, suffered when losing full control of their senses while restrained in an upright position, and being lowered to the ground by the Top who is surprised by the full weight of a limp body and drops them. Number one injury to Tops are shoulder injuries suffered during that lowering (dropping) process. You wanna tell me that the assistance of a DM in those situations is not a benefit and does not lend towards a safer play experience? Really, you're being obstinant in the face of facts. quote: Things go wrong, accidents happen, and we Tops/Dominants, although ever vigilant (presumably), cannot see or know everything and immediately. How many throws of a bull whip to cause damage? Better asked, how far (for example) can a tendon stretch before rupturing? And once you notice that it has ruptured, much like the bull whip, can you "undo" it? All great reasons pointing to the false belief that a safe-word protects you. No one that I know, least of all me, portrays safewords as some kind of force shield protection from all harm. Silly statements like that do less to marginalize safewords than they do your logical assertions. Evidently you really have an issue over the term, so if it makes you feel better we can call it something else. How about we call it "talking"? That's the point. Not the use/unuse but people believing the cloak of a safe-word protects you. Inherently they are dangerous, because both parties rely on them, sometimes to the exclusion of common sense. Well, maybe not so common. What people believe that safewords are a cloak of protection? Where are they so I can slap them upside the head? How is the use of a communication term, denoting that something is wrong, inherently dangerous? Seriously, I'd love to know (and please, dispense with the silly "cloak of protection" because you're the only one who has brought that concept into the conversation, and I have already, repeatedly, stipulated that safewords do no such thing). I'm not very computer savvy so my replies are buried in the text above. John

Rover -> RE: "Everyone has limits." (11/5/2006 5:38:10 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: twicehappy quote: ORIGINAL: Rover I'm fond of saying that "stop you idiot or I'll call the police" is a very effective safeword. Lmao...... When asked by Scooter the first time we scened if i wanted to negotiate i said no i trusted him to read my reactions to anything just fine. When asked if i had a safeword and if i wanted to use it i replied no to both questions. When he asked how he would know something was wrong i replied " If i say Fuck No or Fucking Stop you can be pretty sure i mean it". And there you have it, a perfect example of safewords absent all the mystic mumbo jumbo. Communicated clearly, succinctly, and unambiguously. Well said, twice. John

juliaoceania -> RE: "Everyone has limits." (11/5/2006 5:39:38 PM)
Yes, even "stop, I have a cramp" is a series of safewords

Rover -> RE: "Everyone has limits." (11/5/2006 5:44:53 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: juliaoceania Yes, even "stop, I have a cramp" is a series of safewords It most certainly is, julia. Or "stop, I feel my surgically repaired elbow tearing". But evidently, some people would not wish to hear that. John

HollyS -> RE: "Everyone has limits." (11/5/2006 6:15:23 PM)
Hi Celeste, quote: ORIGINAL: BitaTruble There was a question asked.. what would happen if I say 'no'. If I 'could' I don't know what would happen. I can't imagine a request he would make which result in a negative answer from me. Maybe he would release me or divorce me. Maybe he would punish me. Maybe he would find someone who would say yes to whatever he demanded. Well, I just put this question to Himself and he responded.. "What would you say no to?" I just can't answer this question. I don't know how. I'm the one that asked this question. I asked because to my mind there is a distinct difference between "I can't say no" and "I choose not to say no" -- a difference which you make pretty clear in your answer. Even as you said "I couldn't..." you still were able to come up with several possibilities for what might happen were you to actually say no to something. It's what you see as those possibilities that matter profoundly. Look at your answers for what might happen and find a common theme. What response do you see as inevitable were you to ever say no to something? It's interesting to me that when you asked Himself, His answer was another question: "What would you say no to?" I never meant this to be about actions that you might refuse. Unlike others that have answered, I don't find much benefit in posing extreme hypotheticals to see where your line in the sand is. It was a good thing for you to ask Himself, though I wish He had given you a direct answer rather than another question. This isn't about "What would you say no to?" It's about "What would Your reaction be if I did?" If you thought it useful, perhaps you could ask him again with a request for an answer reflective of what He feels he would really do. Without telling him your guesses, see if he mentions any of the things you've supposed he would do (release you, divorce you, find another slave, etc...). Consider his answers carefully and look for places where his thoughts are out of line with yours. Again, it isn't about the actions that bring about saying "no" (though He might say "Depending on what you said no to, I might..."). An inability to say "no" is, like so many things, rooted in an "as if" belief -- "I must do X because if I were to do Y, then Z would happen." It may be worth finding out whether the things you imagine might happen were you to say "No" have any real chance of happening. Truly, He may have other ideas. ~Holly

adaddysgirl -> RE: "Everyone has limits." (11/5/2006 6:44:41 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: roseofsheryn I have to totally disagree with you here. A person can have a "no limits" relationship without being mentally ill. Before you can make that statelment you first have to know about their selection process. I was a 24/7 slave with no limits but now am Switch that is predominately Dom. When I looked at Doms I certainly did not look at a Dom that would have different limits than me. I looked for one that would have the same limits and in that case there would be a "no limits" submission. If I don't want to do skat I am not going to look for a Master that would be into that. So if I know their limits and mine are compatable them I can with confidence say that I have no limits with them because I know they will not go there anyway. So anything that they would do to or with me or require of me would in fact be something I could or would be capable of doing. This in no way means that I would have the same "no limits" standard with someone else. So many forget that the selection process plays a key role in any relationship and because of that they can indeed have a "no limits" standard between them. So do they have no limits at all in their entire life? No! and noone said that. They have no limits between them. You do not have to be mentally ill to have the capasity to trust someone completely and give them all of you if you know that on the most basic levels you are totally compatable. Sharon This thread was actually an offshoot of another thread. If you read both threads in their entirity, you probably would have a much better idea of what we are referring to here as 'no limits'. Yes, others did say they had no limits in their entire life. There are people who would actually die at their Master's will because they really have no limits. And it's not about shared limits or compatibility....it's not about negotiations at the beginning....none of that. It's a pretty interesting read, if you are so inclined. Daddysgirl

happypervert -> RE: "Everyone has limits." (11/5/2006 7:25:26 PM)
quote: Now, I'll add to your hypothetical and suggest if you want to put it to the test, write to him and offer to 'buy' me. He's a capitalist after all and it's said every man has his price. I believe myself to be priceless.. I further believe that Himself also views me as priceless but I could be wrong. The offer would have to be more than two camels though, because he's been offered that already and turned it down. heh . . . it's obvious to me that you're priceless too, Celeste. So I'm out of luck -- even two camels is too rich for me.

BitaTruble -> RE: "Everyone has limits." (11/5/2006 8:50:57 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: HollyS I'm the one that asked this question. I asked because to my mind there is a distinct difference between "I can't say no" and "I choose not to say no" -- a difference which you make pretty clear in your answer. Even as you said "I couldn't..." you still were able to come up with several possibilities for what might happen were you to actually say no to something. It's what you see as those possibilities that matter profoundly. Look at your answers for what might happen and find a common theme. The 'ability' to perform a function in reality is not the same as conceptualizing a hypothetical idea. Given a hypothetical on almost any subject, I could probably come up with several 'possibilities' even on subjects I've had absolutely zero training in. For example.. if you were to ask me.. "What would you do if you were performing surgery on a heart patient and they started to bleed uncontrollably?" I can think of several possible actions one could take although I have no practical application or experience with the subject. Pinch the nerve which is bleeding, cauterize the wound, apply direct pressure etc. ... all or none of which may kill the patient, but they are still 'possibilities'. I'm afraid I don't find this particular argument persuasive nor do I believe my answers to be profound in nature. They were nothing more than an attempt to honestly answer your question just as I might answer the question about 'what if' I were performing surgery. quote: It's interesting to me that when you asked Himself, His answer was another question: "What would you say no to?" He often answers my questions with other questions. He's a scientist and uses the scientific method almost by rote. It's not unusual for him, actually .. but it would be out of the ordinary for me. quote: It was a good thing for you to ask Himself, though I wish He had given you a direct answer rather than another question. This isn't about "What would you say no to?" It's about "What would Your reaction be if I did?" Your question lead to exploration. It was a worthwhile discussion, but, the end result is, he feels he can no more answer how he would react to a refusal than he can wrap his brain around me refusing to do something he's asked. quote: If you thought it useful, perhaps you could ask him again with a request for an answer reflective of what He feels he would really do. I've already done so actually. (As I said, your questions generated an exploration. :) With his help we formed a hypothesis (which was that I 'could' refuse a command) however, the answers neither proved nor disproved the hypothesis because there were commands he simply was not willing to give. All we proved was that I "would" not refuse commands which he was willing to give. While my answers to his questions were consistent, they could not be used to disprove or prove the base hypothesis. So either our method was flawed, (and I don't believe it was) the wrong questions were asked (which is possible) or.. the statement can't be proven which is not, of course, the same as the statement being false. We are going to try it again with a different hypothesis and I am, very much, looking forward to the results. quote: An inability to say "no" is, like so many things, rooted in an "as if" belief -- "I must do X because if I were to do Y, then Z would happen." It may be worth finding out whether the things you imagine might happen were you to say "No" have any real chance of happening. Truly, He may have other ideas. Interesting, but I'm not sure that when things get down to the instinct level, that there is such thought put in to them. I already 'know' what can happen when one says 'no'. It's a lesson I learned long ago and honestly, it's not something I'm eager to explore. However, between this post and the one from KoM, I am thinking outside my normal parameters and who knows what may come of it. Himself and I have engaged in a delightful discussion of the subject and plan to continue to explore the issue. I saved this next question for last so it's out of sequence, but I felt it deserved it's own reply because it's the only thing you asked which brought tears to my eyes. (Let me reiterate in case you missed it.. I am menopausal and at the time of this writing, I've actually started my period, so don't read too much in to my response.) quote: What response do you see as inevitable were you to ever say no to something? Hurt, pain, confusion, disbelief, frustration, anger, sorrow .. his, not mine and it hurts my heart to think of it which is what brought the tears to my eyes and yet, oddly, makes me rather numb at the same time as if there is a void from the implosion of the universe and I've ceased to exist within it. Ask me again in 6 days. ::chuckles:: Celeste

Sinergy -> RE: "Everyone has limits." (11/5/2006 8:57:11 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Rover quote: ORIGINAL: juliaoceania Yes, even "stop, I have a cramp" is a series of safewords It most certainly is, julia. Or "stop, I feel my surgically repaired elbow tearing". But evidently, some people would not wish to hear that. John I would imagine that the "I dont need safewords, they screw up the scene" crowd would tend to suddenly change their mind about their approach to WIITWD and try to think some up if I tied them up, turned on the chain saw, and started sawing off parts of their body. Just me, and I could be wrong, but there you go. Sinergy

Lordandmaster -> RE: "Everyone has limits." (11/5/2006 9:19:49 PM)
I doubt we've been able to have a single thread about limits without reverting eventually to the chainsaw argument. Can't we think of anything more creative than chainsaws?

Sinergy -> RE: "Everyone has limits." (11/5/2006 9:27:06 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Lordandmaster I doubt we've been able to have a single thread about limits without reverting eventually to the chainsaw argument. Can't we think of anything more creative than chainsaws? Well, when I was attempting to come up with something universally reviled and feared, I knew it was either chainsaws or discussing the difference between a slave and a submissive. Sinergy

Sinergy -> RE: "Everyone has limits." (11/5/2006 9:33:16 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Lordandmaster I doubt we've been able to have a single thread about limits without reverting eventually to the chainsaw argument. Can't we think of anything more creative than chainsaws? For those keeping score, I actually was commenting on safe words. Not limits. Just me, could be wrong, etc. Sinergy

Lordandmaster -> RE: "Everyone has limits." (11/5/2006 10:15:13 PM)
Yeah, that's true. But maybe someone could come up with something novel like...oh, I don't know, tarantulas in the crotch. Or mastectomy without anaesthesia.

juliaoceania -> RE: "Everyone has limits." (11/5/2006 10:17:49 PM)
I am not afraid of arachnids Chainsaws have sharp edges, they win the scary contest ... at least for me... But I am more than willing to say "No Please Stop"... especially during interrogation scenes....MMMMMMMMMM

Sinergy -> RE: "Everyone has limits." (11/5/2006 10:25:34 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: juliaoceania I am not afraid of arachnids Chainsaws have sharp edges, they win the scary contest ... at least for me... But I am more than willing to say "No Please Stop"... especially during interrogation scenes....MMMMMMMMMM You will have no problems in interrogation scenes as long as you can provide me with the information I am looking for. This might include the difference between correlated and uncorrelated carbon dating techniques, the date the Viking settlement in Greenland went tango-uniform, or the terminal velocity of a sparrow carrying a coconut. Fail to answer any of these questions with a coherent response, and you will be punished as Zoot was for lighting the grail shaped beacon. Sinergy

ExtremeOwnerIL -> RE: "Everyone has limits." (11/6/2006 3:54:25 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Sinergy Fail to answer any of these questions with a coherent response, and you will be punished as Zoot was for lighting the grail shaped beacon. Sinergy That's not exactly a deterrent, considering what comes AFTER the punishment. Regards, EO

juliaoceania -> RE: "Everyone has limits." (11/6/2006 8:02:51 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: ExtremeOwnerIL quote: ORIGINAL: Sinergy Fail to answer any of these questions with a coherent response, and you will be punished as Zoot was for lighting the grail shaped beacon. Sinergy That's not exactly a deterrent, considering what comes AFTER the punishment. Regards, EO Bingo!...WEG

Dnomyar -> RE: "Everyone has limits." (11/6/2006 8:37:26 AM)
Sinergy what is the difference between a slave and a submissive?? Can we use a chainsaw on either one of them?

mnottertail -> RE: "Everyone has limits." (11/6/2006 8:40:14 AM)
CHAINSAWS ARE ONLY TO BE USED ON THE NO LIMITS SLAVES, but you can use miter saws on the submissives. It's a pretty cut-and dried kinda thing, if you are still confused, Lam has a book for sale out here somewhere... LOL. Ron

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