Hacking Democracy

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Chaingang -> Hacking Democracy (11/6/2006 4:48:23 PM)
"Hacking Democracy" public interest pictures 1 hr 21 min 57 sec - 4-Nov-2006 http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-7236791207107726851&sourceid=docidfeed&hl=en-CA --- I'll watch this later myself. Just posted it now as a matter of interest for others...

BlkTallFullfig -> RE: Hacking Democracy (11/6/2006 10:12:44 PM)
This is insane, and makes us no better than the most corrupt poor/uneducated countries... Sadly enough, most people are happy to ignore it as propagandist, and never try to search for the truth, because lying, corruption, and robbing the populace of justice only happens in those countries over there... M

NeedToUseYou -> RE: Hacking Democracy (11/6/2006 11:54:17 PM)
Just watched it. Disturbing, especially the simplicity of the hack used. I'd hardly call it a technical hack at all. I'm a novice programmer myself, and couldn't conceive of leaving that open much less senior software engineers which supposedly know what they are doing.

Chaingang -> RE: Hacking Democracy (11/7/2006 3:45:15 AM)
Three things: 1. I consider Bev Harris' research ample evidence of actual election tampering and that the last two major elections were stolen in Florida, Ohio, and New Mexico. 2. Kerry's capitulation despite actual evidence of tampering in New Mexico and Ohio raises grave doubts as to there being any truly substantive difference between the two major parties. Given their very nearly equal loyalty to big business interests the last thing on either party's agenda is doing the work of their actual constituency. I have said it before, but it's basically either corporate cock sucking writ large or writ small - that's the only possible difference between the Rethugs and the Demopukes. So whether it is the "Skull and Bones" secret society at Yale or their mutual corporate masters that ties the parties together (maybe one leads to the other?), the end result is that there are scant differences between them. That said, I do think of BushCo as being an outrageous lootocracy the likes of which we have never seen on either side of the aisle - and they simply must go, ultimately to be held accountable for their crimes. 3. It occurs that Bev Harris is married to an African-American, so when she says that we must retake our elections "by any means necessary" it is hard to misunderstand her. That's a very thinly veiled reference to a larger quote from Malcolm X: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/6/62/Malcomxm1carbine3gr.gif We want freedom by any means necessary. We want justice by any means necessary. We want equality by any means necessary. - Malcolm X

UtopianRanger -> RE: Hacking Democracy (11/7/2006 4:24:14 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Chaingang Three things: 1. I consider Bev Harris' research ample evidence of actual election tampering and that the last two major elections were stolen in Florida, Ohio, and New Mexico. 2. Kerry's capitulation despite actual evidence of tampering in New Mexico and Ohio raises grave doubts as to there being any truly substantive difference between the two major parties. Given their very nearly equal loyalty to big business interests the last thing on either party's agenda is doing the work of their actual constituency. I have said it before, but it's basically either corporate cock sucking writ large or writ small - that's the only possible difference between the Rethugs and the Demopukes. So whether it is the "Skull and Bones" secret society at Yale or their mutual corporate masters that ties the parties together (maybe one leads to the other?), the end result is that there are scant differences between them. That said, I do think of BushCo as being an outrageous lootocracy the likes of which we have never seen on either side of the aisle - and they simply must go, ultimately to be held accountable for their crimes. 3. It occurs that Bev Harris is married to an African-American, so when she says that we must retake our elections "by any means necessary" it is hard to misunderstand her. That's a very thinly veiled reference to a larger quote from Malcolm X: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/6/62/Malcomxm1carbine3gr.gif We want freedom by any means necessary. We want justice by any means necessary. We want equality by any means necessary. - Malcolm X On the money Chaingang.....superbly said. I just wish a day would come that a few more would eyes and see what you and I see. Man....I don't care how it happens....but the corporate cock sucker's have got to be disposed of. Edited to add : I know many are really confused by this : It's not the parties and the lower echelon members of the parties that are the same....it's the creatures who control the direction and the decision making that are virtually identical - R

Archer -> RE: Hacking Democracy (11/7/2006 6:16:58 AM)
The question is there have been proven actual election frauds happening or decades trough the previous methods o voting, and attempts to fix the holes have been rebuffed. Meanwhile there is the potential for fraud and a few "suspicious"things with the new machines yet all the focus I see from some folks is on the later. Dead folks voting Non Citizens voting Muti state voting by individals Paper ballots counted and totalling more than the entire registered votingpopulation of the district Problems that seem to be ignored, and in fact in some cases actively worked againstteps taken to try to eliminate the frauds Im all for a paper trail, I'm all for improved security for the computer voting, I'm all for making sure that the elections are verifieable and have every possible fraud looked into. But the ompuerhack fraud worries me far less than these others I have mentioned, because they have been around longer and they have not solved them.

UtopianRanger -> RE: Hacking Democracy (11/7/2006 7:15:13 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Archer The question is there have been proven actual election frauds happening or decades trough the previous methods o voting, and attempts to fix the holes have been rebuffed. Meanwhile there is the potential for fraud and a few "suspicious"things with the new machines yet all the focus I see from some folks is on the later. Dead folks voting Non Citizens voting Muti state voting by individals Paper ballots counted and totalling more than the entire registered votingpopulation of the district Problems that seem to be ignored, and in fact in some cases actively worked againstteps taken to try to eliminate the frauds Im all for a paper trail, I'm all for improved security for the computer voting, I'm all for making sure that the elections are verifieable and have every possible fraud looked into. But the ompuerhack fraud worries me far less than these others I have mentioned, because they have been around longer and they have not solved them. Hey Archer.... Do you remember Florida 2000, when they were sitting at the those tables and they had three people from each party checking all the ballots? For three to fives days out of each year, I'll take that fiasco any day of the week over non-receipt, non-audit-trail automated voting machines. - R

thompsonx -> RE: Hacking Democracy (11/7/2006 7:45:56 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Chaingang Three things: 1. I consider Bev Harris' research ample evidence of actual election tampering and that the last two major elections were stolen in Florida, Ohio, and New Mexico. 2. Kerry's capitulation despite actual evidence of tampering in New Mexico and Ohio raises grave doubts as to there being any truly substantive difference between the two major parties. Given their very nearly equal loyalty to big business interests the last thing on either party's agenda is doing the work of their actual constituency. I have said it before, but it's basically either corporate cock sucking writ large or writ small - that's the only possible difference between the Rethugs and the Demopukes. So whether it is the "Skull and Bones" secret society at Yale or their mutual corporate masters that ties the parties together (maybe one leads to the other?), the end result is that there are scant differences between them. That said, I do think of BushCo as being an outrageous lootocracy the likes of which we have never seen on either side of the aisle - and they simply must go, ultimately to be held accountable for their crimes. 3. It occurs that Bev Harris is married to an African-American, so when she says that we must retake our elections "by any means necessary" it is hard to misunderstand her. That's a very thinly veiled reference to a larger quote from Malcolm X: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/6/62/Malcomxm1carbine3gr.gif We want freedom by any means necessary. We want justice by any means necessary. We want equality by any means necessary. - Malcolm X Chaingang: I am a bit unclear as to the meaning of your post. Are you in favor of freedom, justice and equality by any means necessary or against it? thompson

Chaingang -> RE: Hacking Democracy (11/7/2006 9:03:00 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: thompsonx Are you in favor of freedom, justice and equality by any means necessary or against it? I am a hardcore patriot and a supporter of a huge middle class, by any means necessary.

Mercnbeth -> RE: Hacking Democracy (11/7/2006 9:10:30 AM)
Chain, I take it you would be in favor and campaign for a national picture ID card that could be swiped prior to anyone voting to confirm eligibility, combined with a voting method with a back up paper trail? I'm on-board with that. The argument I've heard against it is that the concept of 'secret ballot' may be compromised.

thompsonx -> RE: Hacking Democracy (11/7/2006 9:21:44 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth Chain, I take it you would be in favor and campaign for a national picture ID card that could be swiped prior to anyone voting to confirm eligibility, combined with a voting method with a back up paper trail? I'm on-board with that. The argument I've heard against it is that the concept of 'secret ballot' may be compromised. Mercnbeth: Where I vote it is a paper ballot. When I go in I show my drivers license and they find my name on the list of registered voters. I sign next to my name and they give me a ballot. When I am through I get a tab off of the ballot with a serial number on it. The only way this form of voting can be compromised if through fraud. If voter fraud carried the same penality as possession of crack cocain and the punishment was applied evenly to all who transgressed then we might have a bit less of it. thompson

Mercnbeth -> RE: Hacking Democracy (11/7/2006 9:53:46 AM)
quote: Where I vote it is a paper ballot. When I go in I show my drivers license and they find my name on the list of registered voters. I sign next to my name and they give me a ballot. When I am through I get a tab off of the ballot with a serial number on it. thompson, Did you know that if you moved more than likely there was another list of registered list of voters with your name on it for your old address? There is little if any, cross referencing. My DL in California has an address that I've moved from twice, yet I voted today using it, because I was on the registered voters list. If I'd like I can go to my old polling place and vote there too, because I got a sample ballot forwarded to me even though I'd moved over 18 months. Why not a National Voting Card that would eliminate that opportunity?

thompsonx -> RE: Hacking Democracy (11/7/2006 10:19:11 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth quote: Where I vote it is a paper ballot. When I go in I show my drivers license and they find my name on the list of registered voters. I sign next to my name and they give me a ballot. When I am through I get a tab off of the ballot with a serial number on it. thompson, Did you know that if you moved more than likely there was another list of registered list of voters with your name on it for your old address? There is little if any, cross referencing. My DL in California has an address that I've moved from twice, yet I voted today using it, because I was on the registered voters list. If I'd like I can go to my old polling place and vote there too, because I got a sample ballot forwarded to me even though I'd moved over 18 months. Why not a National Voting Card that would eliminate that opportunity? Mercnbeth: I would think that the registar of voters would be responsible for putting my name on the new voters list where I now live and remove it from the old address where I no longer live. Of course you and I both know that bureaucrats operate according to the "peter principle". As for a national identity card...how about we issue everyone passports (with all the verification that requires). Of course the patriot act may not allow for everyone in amerika to be given a passport. Perhaps a finger print on the paper ballot would help to reduce the fraud. thompson

Mercnbeth -> RE: Hacking Democracy (11/7/2006 10:29:31 AM)
quote: As for a national identity card...how about we issue everyone passports (with all the verification that requires). Of course the patriot act may not allow for everyone in amerika to be given a passport. Perhaps a finger print on the paper ballot would help to reduce the fraud. Agreed! Not everyone in the United States currently is entitled to a passport, nor the right and privilege to vote. Making your proposed solution valid on a number of levels. The reference to the "Patriot Act" appears incongruous but perhaps if want you can provide a perspective that provides relevance?

justheather -> RE: Hacking Democracy (11/7/2006 10:43:25 AM)
My entire family voted this morning without producing a single form of identification.

thompsonx -> RE: Hacking Democracy (11/7/2006 10:46:05 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth quote: As for a national identity card...how about we issue everyone passports (with all the verification that requires). Of course the patriot act may not allow for everyone in amerika to be given a passport. Perhaps a finger print on the paper ballot would help to reduce the fraud. Agreed! Not everyone in the United States currently is entitled to a passport, nor the right and privilege to vote. Making your proposed solution valid on a number of levels. The reference to the "Patriot Act" appears incongruous but perhaps if want you can provide a perspective that provides relevance? Mercnbeth: Voting is not a privledge it is a right in this country, even a felony conviction does not take that right away. A passport is simply a letter of introduction of the individual from one country to another. Yet the government claims the right to reufse a citizen of the U.S. a passport. The patriot act claims the perogative to determine who shall leave the country. Am I correct in my bellief that the government has a list of people who may not fly. thompson

Mercnbeth -> RE: Hacking Democracy (11/7/2006 11:04:24 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: thompsonx Voting is not a privilege it is a right in this country, even a felony conviction does not take that right away. I believe the source of this reference is actually striving to change the fact that in 11 states you are incorrect. quote: In 11 states, a felony conviction can result in a lifetime ban from voting. Of these, three states permanently disenfranchise everyone with a felony conviction. In many other states people are denied the right to vote in prison, on parole, and on probation. Across the country, state disenfranchisement laws bar nearly five million Americans from the polls.Source: http://www.brennancenter.org/programs/dem_vr_fvr.html quote: Yet the government claims the right to reufse a citizen of the U.S. a passport. The patriot act claims the perogative to determine who shall leave the country. There are six main qualifications for a US Passport. Complete the Application Proof of citizenship Proof of identity Two photos Fee Social Security card. Got that and you get a passport. I saw no "disqualification" but feel free to peruse the site: http://passports.factexpert.com/1599-passport-qualifications.php quote: Am I correct in my belief that the government has a list of people who may not fly. Mostly INTO the US but yes, and it can be appealed. If you have a reference where US Citizens are restricted I would be interesting in viewing it.

thompsonx -> RE: Hacking Democracy (11/7/2006 6:14:57 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth quote: ORIGINAL: thompsonx Voting is not a privilege it is a right in this country, even a felony conviction does not take that right away. I believe the source of this reference is actually striving to change the fact that in 11 states you are incorrect. quote: In 11 states, a felony conviction can result in a lifetime ban from voting. Of these, three states permanently disenfranchise everyone with a felony conviction. In many other states people are denied the right to vote in prison, on parole, and on probation. Across the country, state disenfranchisement laws bar nearly five million Americans from the polls.Source: http://www.brennancenter.org/programs/dem_vr_fvr.html quote: Yet the government claims the right to reufse a citizen of the U.S. a passport. The patriot act claims the perogative to determine who shall leave the country. There are six main qualifications for a US Passport. Complete the Application Proof of citizenship Proof of identity Two photos Fee Social Security card. Got that and you get a passport. I saw no "disqualification" but feel free to peruse the site: http://passports.factexpert.com/1599-passport-qualifications.php quote: Am I correct in my belief that the government has a list of people who may not fly. Mostly INTO the US but yes, and it can be appealed. If you have a reference where US Citizens are restricted I would be interesting in viewing it. Mercnbeth: The Brennen group is trying very hard to get the states to follow federal guidelines here. As you point out only 11 out of 50 states have any restrictions on felons voting while only 3 of those 11 pursue this in any meaningful fashion. Every time this has been challanged in court the plantiffs have prevailed. The U.S. supreme court has ruled that citizens of the United States do not legaly need to have a social security number. If one were to exercise this point then how would one get a passport? There have been numerous cases where the government confiscated passports from private citizens simply because the individuals in question disagreed with the feds politically. I have no reference as to who is on the no fly list. (that list could be as hard to acquire as a full and unabridged copy of the patriot act verse 1 and 2) I have seen several articles on the news about how someone, some mucical personality Cat Stevens (if memory serves me correctly) was refused access to air travel. You do not find it disturbing that the government can tell us who may and may not travel outside of the U.S.? Oh yes a passport is almost a hundred dollars...it seems like I paid about $10 for the first one I got about 40 years ago. While there are only 6 requirements to apply for a passport it is at the governments option as to whether it will issue you one or not. thompson

farglebargle -> RE: Hacking Democracy (11/7/2006 6:24:01 PM)
quote: Mostly INTO the US but yes, and it can be appealed. If you have a reference where US Citizens are restricted I would be interesting in viewing it. That's what the DOMESTIC No-Fly list is for.

thompsonx -> RE: Hacking Democracy (11/9/2006 10:29:24 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Chaingang quote: ORIGINAL: thompsonx Are you in favor of freedom, justice and equality by any means necessary or against it? [/quote I am a hardcore patriot and a supporter of a huge middle class, by any means necessary. Chaingang" I am glad to hear that...but...you did not answer the question I asked. thompson

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