quote:

ORIGINAL: Chaingang

Three things:

1. I consider Bev Harris' research ample evidence of actual election tampering and that the last two major elections were stolen in Florida, Ohio, and New Mexico.

2. Kerry's capitulation despite actual evidence of tampering in New Mexico and Ohio raises grave doubts as to there being any truly substantive difference between the two major parties. Given their very nearly equal loyalty to big business interests the last thing on either party's agenda is doing the work of their actual constituency. I have said it before, but it's basically either corporate cock sucking writ large or writ small - that's the only possible difference between the Rethugs and the Demopukes. So whether it is the "Skull and Bones" secret society at Yale or their mutual corporate masters that ties the parties together (maybe one leads to the other?), the end result is that there are scant differences between them. That said, I do think of BushCo as being an outrageous lootocracy the likes of which we have never seen on either side of the aisle - and they simply must go, ultimately to be held accountable for their crimes.

3. It occurs that Bev Harris is married to an African-American, so when she says that we must retake our elections "by any means necessary" it is hard to misunderstand her. That's a very thinly veiled reference to a larger quote from Malcolm X:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/6/62/Malcomxm1carbine3gr.gif

We want freedom by any means necessary.
We want justice by any means necessary.
We want equality by any means necessary.
- Malcolm X

quote:

ORIGINAL: Archer

The question is there have been proven actual election frauds happening or decades trough the previous methods o voting, and attempts to fix the holes have been rebuffed.
Meanwhile there is the potential for fraud and a few "suspicious"things with the new machines yet all the focus I see from some folks is on the later.
Dead folks voting
Non Citizens voting
Muti state voting by individals
Paper ballots counted and totalling more than the entire registered votingpopulation of the district
Problems that seem to be ignored, and in fact in some cases actively worked againstteps taken to try to eliminate the frauds

Im all for a paper trail, I'm all for improved security for the computer voting, I'm all for making sure that the elections are verifieable and have every possible fraud looked into. But the ompuerhack fraud worries me far less than these others I have mentioned, because they have been around longer and they have not solved them.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Chaingang

Three things:

1. I consider Bev Harris' research ample evidence of actual election tampering and that the last two major elections were stolen in Florida, Ohio, and New Mexico.

2. Kerry's capitulation despite actual evidence of tampering in New Mexico and Ohio raises grave doubts as to there being any truly substantive difference between the two major parties. Given their very nearly equal loyalty to big business interests the last thing on either party's agenda is doing the work of their actual constituency. I have said it before, but it's basically either corporate cock sucking writ large or writ small - that's the only possible difference between the Rethugs and the Demopukes. So whether it is the "Skull and Bones" secret society at Yale or their mutual corporate masters that ties the parties together (maybe one leads to the other?), the end result is that there are scant differences between them. That said, I do think of BushCo as being an outrageous lootocracy the likes of which we have never seen on either side of the aisle - and they simply must go, ultimately to be held accountable for their crimes.

3. It occurs that Bev Harris is married to an African-American, so when she says that we must retake our elections "by any means necessary" it is hard to misunderstand her. That's a very thinly veiled reference to a larger quote from Malcolm X:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/6/62/Malcomxm1carbine3gr.gif

We want freedom by any means necessary.
We want justice by any means necessary.
We want equality by any means necessary.
- Malcolm X

quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx
Are you in favor of freedom, justice and equality by any means necessary or against it?

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth

Chain,
I take it you would be in favor and campaign for a national picture ID card that could be swiped prior to anyone voting to confirm eligibility, combined with a voting method with a back up paper trail?

I'm on-board with that.

The argument I've heard against it is that the concept of 'secret ballot' may be compromised.

quote:

Where I vote it is a paper ballot.  When I go in I show my drivers license and they find my name on the list of registered voters.  I sign next to my name and they give me a ballot.  When I am through I get a tab off of the ballot with a serial number on it.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth

quote:

Where I vote it is a paper ballot.  When I go in I show my drivers license and they find my name on the list of registered voters.  I sign next to my name and they give me a ballot.  When I am through I get a tab off of the ballot with a serial number on it.

thompson,
Did you know that if you moved more than likely there was another list of registered list of voters with your name on it for your old address? There is little if any, cross referencing. My DL in California has an address that I've moved from twice, yet I voted today using it, because I was on the registered voters list. If I'd like I can go to my old polling place and vote there too, because I got a sample ballot forwarded to me even though I'd moved over 18 months.

Why not a National Voting Card that would eliminate that opportunity?

quote:

As for a national identity card...how about we issue everyone passports (with all the verification that requires).  Of course the patriot act may not allow for everyone in amerika to be given a passport.
Perhaps a finger print on the paper ballot would help to reduce the fraud.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth

quote:

As for a national identity card...how about we issue everyone passports (with all the verification that requires).  Of course the patriot act may not allow for everyone in amerika to be given a passport.
Perhaps a finger print on the paper ballot would help to reduce the fraud.

Agreed!

Not everyone in the United States currently is entitled to a passport, nor the right and privilege to vote. Making your proposed solution valid on a number of levels.

The reference to the "Patriot Act" appears incongruous but perhaps if want you can provide a perspective that provides relevance?

quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx

Voting is not a privilege it is a right in this country, even a felony conviction does not take that right away.

quote:

Yet the government claims the right to reufse a citizen of the U.S. a passport. The patriot act claims the perogative to determine who shall leave the country. 

1. Complete the Application
   
2. Proof of citizenship
   
3. Proof of identity
   
4. Two photos
   
5. Fee
   
6. Social Security card.

quote:

Am I correct in my belief that the government has a list of people who may not fly.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth

quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx

Voting is not a privilege it is a right in this country, even a felony conviction does not take that right away.

I believe the source of this reference is actually striving to change the fact that in 11 states you are incorrect.

quote:

In 11 states, a felony conviction can result in a lifetime ban from voting.  Of these, three states permanently disenfranchise everyone with a felony conviction. In many other states people are denied the right to vote in prison, on parole, and on probation. Across the country, state disenfranchisement laws bar nearly five million Americans from the polls.Source: http://www.brennancenter.org/programs/dem_vr_fvr.html 

quote:

Yet the government claims the right to reufse a citizen of the U.S. a passport. The patriot act claims the perogative to determine who shall leave the country. 

There are six main qualifications for a US Passport.

1. Complete the Application
   
2. Proof of citizenship
   
3. Proof of identity
   
4. Two photos
   
5. Fee
   
6. Social Security card.

Got that and you get a passport. I saw no "disqualification" but feel free to peruse the site:  http://passports.factexpert.com/1599-passport-qualifications.php

quote:

Am I correct in my belief that the government has a list of people who may not fly.

  Mostly INTO the US but yes, and it can be appealed. If you have a reference where US Citizens are restricted I would be interesting in viewing it.

quote:

Mostly INTO the US but yes, and it can be appealed. If you have a reference where US Citizens are restricted I would be interesting in viewing it.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Chaingang

quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx
Are you in favor of freedom, justice and equality by any means necessary or against it?
[/quote


I am a hardcore patriot and a supporter of a huge middle class, by any means necessary.

Chaingang"
I am glad to hear that...but...you did not answer the question I asked.
thompson

(in reply to Chaingang)