Iraq Withdraw

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Mercnbeth -> Iraq Withdraw (11/7/2006 9:48:19 AM)
quote: Hizbullah Secretary-General Hassan Nasrallah: When We Were Young, I cannot Forget the Sight of American Forces leaving Vietnam, and the Americans Abandoning their Vietnamese Allies, I Anticipate the Same for our Region . I'm on record saying the US should abandon the country and people of Iraq. This link gives you the perspective of how the other side will view that action: http://littlegreenfootballs.com/weblog/?entry=23245_Hizballah_Leader-_Like_They_Left_Vietnam&only There are plenty of "givens". If you want to talk about the past or say we shouldn't have gone there in the first place. I'll stipulate agreement, because its immaterial to the question of "now what?" I am torn about how to feel about this. I still support withdraw, but there seems to be more on the table within the region than just Iraq. Integrity of a person is hard to reestablish. This situation concerns the integrity of a county, my county. Your comments are appreciated.

mnottertail -> RE: Iraq Withdraw (11/7/2006 9:57:26 AM)
I don't think integrity is served by pounding sand down a rathole.... we seem to see alot of things out here that says, if you are wrong, admit it and repent of your prior doings................ I thought it was wrong at the first, will be wrong whatever happens today and will not become right if we put our self-interested effort into the region tomorrow, in fact, I fair doubt that putting selfless effort over there is going to do anything for a long time........... There are still people in this world that were pissed off at reagan for placing the wreath on the wehrmacht grave over something that happened 50 years ago........ And we all know there are some people that ain't over the civil war yet......... But we have finally forgiven the mongolians, I think................ Long road to hoe that transcends our generations, and 4 year asshole politicos don't think that far ahead...............they serve the party, not the nation. Now China, on the other hand, is aware of their space, and will do what is in their self-interest in their own time.............but they take a longer view. Ron

meatcleaver -> RE: Iraq Withdraw (11/7/2006 10:05:18 AM)
Withdrawal without a stable government in Iraq will inevitably be seen as defeat around the world because that is what it would be. You fight a war with establishing certain aims. Removal of Saddam was one but the establishment of a democracy was another. To leave with the situation worse than ever, will leave Iran and Syria as more powerful regional powers. Germany and France are already laughing their heads off at Britain who sacrificed becoming the most influential country in the EU to fight alongside the US in Iraq. This war has already proved to be a defeat for Britain, to have to cut and run which it will have no choice if the USA does, will be diplomatically catrastrophic but then, it already is. My only answer as a Brit and a European is, lynch Blair!

mnottertail -> RE: Iraq Withdraw (11/7/2006 10:18:35 AM)
Well, then we are defeated.......if not now, certainly when Saddam is executed....... So, it is wrong for a country to say our policy is not working, we need to change it? It is clear that any government formed while we have any presence in the area is and will be seen as a puppet government......... If they had the ass at Saddam like everyone said, don't you think they coulda stuffed his body in with the 70+ others they are finding around the town everyday? They aughta put him back where he was, he'll have control of the shithole in a couple weeks. Some shit there ain't no fix for, and you do the jailtime.

thompsonx -> RE: Iraq Withdraw (11/7/2006 10:27:56 AM)
No man stands so tall as when he bends his knee to apologize for being wrong. thompson

Zensee -> RE: Iraq Withdraw (11/7/2006 10:31:04 AM)
I'd agree with most of what's been said... except about the Mongolians, Ron. Some things just forever, you know? It's a twisted mess and will look pretty much the same whether there are western troops on the ground or not. Withdrawal from Iraq seems inevitable. I just don't think the US can keep enough assets there to win. I'm not even sure anyone could define a win. Stalemate at best. And what does that look like? No sucicde bombers? One a week? Ten deaths but not twenty? My concern is for Afganistan. I'd hate to see the return of the Taliban and their revenge on the western sympathisers. If the UN, US and Nato troops concentrated there they might have a chance to make a relatively calm oasis. Not just a military presence but significant work on restoring and improving infrastructure, education, health. Even bread and circuses would be better than guns. Any real change in Afganistan or Iraq will take at least two generations. Can the US keep the peace in Iraq for three or four decades? Can they afford to? Afganistan is doable though, I believe.

UtopianRanger -> RE: Iraq Withdraw (11/7/2006 10:41:26 AM)
quote: My only answer as a Brit and a European is, lynch Blair! Not only would I like to see us withdraw from Iraq, immediately, but I'd like to vacate the whole Middle East. This country needs to do what is does best - Advance science and technology forward. We've got to lose this ''superpower'' ''world cop'' shit - It's for narcissists and egomaniacs As one guy said on the radio the other night: We need to go back to being Prometheus, not Zeus. - R

caitlyn -> RE: Iraq Withdraw (11/7/2006 11:05:27 AM)
Mercnbeth presents this in the proper light in my view ... that we shouldn't have gone, is immaterial to the question of "now what?" We should not have gone, but don't feel we can just up and leave. Things may not be going all that well, but the final outcome is yet to be determined, no matter what some on this board want to suggest. They are not being any more truthful than our President, when he tells us it is going according to plan. As for the Germans and French laughing ... well, so what. If their response to seeing a supposed "friend" struggle, is to laugh ... you know, with friends like that, who needs enemies.

popeye1250 -> RE: Iraq Withdraw (11/7/2006 11:14:21 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: caitlyn Mercnbeth presents this in the proper light in my view ... that we shouldn't have gone, is immaterial to the question of "now what?" We should not have gone, but don't feel we can just up and leave. Things may not be going all that well, but the final outcome is yet to be determined, no matter what some on this board want to suggest. They are not being any more truthful than our President, when he tells us it is going according to plan. As for the Germans and French laughing ... well, so what. If their response to seeing a supposed "friend" struggle, is to laugh ... you know, with friends like that, who needs enemies. Caitlyn, let them laugh. My position hasn't changed. I don't want to be the "World's Policeman" and I want these "foreign aid" programs ended. Hungry? Send out for a pizza. I just don't want my govt. giving my Taxdollars to foreign countries and after this election stuff is over I'm really going to go to work and shithammer that point home with the congressman and senators. The people in Washington are supposed to be running our govt. not a charity for foreign countries!

toservez -> RE: Iraq Withdraw (11/7/2006 11:19:56 AM)
We are already in a no win scenario. I agree that it will look like/be a complete failure leaving without a stable government in place but we have seen zero factual news outside of a election which meant little took place. Nothing is getting done, the police force we are trying to train is a joke by all reports and it is quickly becoming a religious/civil war. We can talk and chest pound how great and powerful we are until we are blue in the face but in the end we are nothing more then an foreign occupation that just causes more problems in the short and long term future. It was pure hubris on our part to think we could take a country, let alone a country in that region, with three different religious groups and turn it into a peaceful democracy. We could have used our resources on people who are truly out to get us or use us as a way to ralley people to do bad things to others. Instead we just did something that helped fuel those poeple's fire. We will withdrawl and it will be in failure. The only questions are, how much, the cost in lives and dollars and what future damage it may bring.

meatcleaver -> RE: Iraq Withdraw (11/7/2006 11:20:41 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: caitlyn Mercnbeth presents this in the proper light in my view ... that we shouldn't have gone, is immaterial to the question of "now what?" We should not have gone, but don't feel we can just up and leave. Things may not be going all that well, but the final outcome is yet to be determined, no matter what some on this board want to suggest. They are not being any more truthful than our President, when he tells us it is going according to plan. As for the Germans and French laughing ... well, so what. If their response to seeing a supposed "friend" struggle, is to laugh ... you know, with friends like that, who needs enemies. In international politics there are no friends, just allies. The choice in Iraq is really a choice between the least worst options. If the US withdraws now it is more than likely that there will be chaos and a reinvigorated Iran and Syria. If the US stays and continues the same strategy, it appears all that will happen is more of the same. The other option as far as I can see and this is highly unlikely with this administration, is talk to Iran and Syria and bring them into a comprehensive drive for peace in the middleast that will include the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. However, I've long since abandoned the idea that Bush is a visionary so I'm expecting more of the same while Bush is in office and it all depends on who the next President will be.

mnottertail -> RE: Iraq Withdraw (11/7/2006 11:28:33 AM)
Iran and Turkey are gonna be the spoilers there. Turkey wants the Kurds back. Now we might just get by with telling them uh-uh.....in fairly strong terms. Iran and Iraq have been fighting about whether it was spelled with a Q or spelled with an N for a long time. Saddam was boasting about having nuclear programs 12-20 years ago, for the facade of keeping up with the Iranians, and everybody knew it.... Because Iran has had it's eye on putting the fundamentalism right in that country for awhile. Which would mean Saddam leaving power, which we just helped them with and why him and Cheney and Rumsfield were good buddies once upon a time. But that country will be rather quickly taking a turn for Islamic Fundamentalism. Ron

caitlyn -> RE: Iraq Withdraw (11/7/2006 11:33:58 AM)
I'm reminded that when the troops hit some difficulty on Omaha Beach, most of Ike's advisors suggested he withdraw. When Bastone was encircled, one of our lovely allies suggested that the situation was hopeless and we needed to pull back. Most in Europe, told us that getting involved in the Balkans, would widen the conflict. We do not yet know what will happen in Iraq. None of us were at the NSC meeting two days ago ... we have the picture the media is presenting to us ... and we all know that the media never lies or presents information designed to sell more media. [8\|][8\|][8\|][8\|][8\|][8\|][8\|][8\|][8\|][8\|][8\|][8\|][8\|]

popeye1250 -> RE: Iraq Withdraw (11/7/2006 11:37:30 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: toservez We are already in a no win scenario. I agree that it will look like/be a complete failure leaving without a stable government in place but we have seen zero factual news outside of a election which meant little took place. Nothing is getting done, the police force we are trying to train is a joke by all reports and it is quickly becoming a religious/civil war. We can talk and chest pound how great and powerful we are until we are blue in the face but in the end we are nothing more then an foreign occupation that just causes more problems in the short and long term future. It was pure hubris on our part to think we could take a country, let alone a country in that region, with three different religious groups and turn it into a peaceful democracy. We could have used our resources on people who are truly out to get us or use us as a way to ralley people to do bad things to others. Instead we just did something that helped fuel those poeple's fire. We will withdrawl and it will be in failure. The only questions are, how much, the cost in lives and dollars and what future damage it may bring. toserve, I think you're right on. Our Troops are very good at winning wars but when it becomes an "occupation" no Troops are good at that! At that point it just becomes a shooting gallery. Just like if a foreign invader tried to occupy the U.S. With more than 300 million firearms in the hands of the Citizens here it wouldn't last long for the occupiers. They'd be stung real bad. Like Bush said; "Mission Accomplished." They got Saddam. Our part is done!

mnottertail -> RE: Iraq Withdraw (11/7/2006 11:40:34 AM)
And recalling the many victories and long reaching and sober judgement of the NSC to date, I can not help but be some a'twitter with anticipation of a remarkable plan going forward, based on the solid foundation and historical context of which we find ourselves up to the hips in the bedrock thereof on this vainglorious day. LOL, Ron

meatcleaver -> RE: Iraq Withdraw (11/7/2006 11:46:13 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: popeye1250 quote: ORIGINAL: toservez We are already in a no win scenario. I agree that it will look like/be a complete failure leaving without a stable government in place but we have seen zero factual news outside of a election which meant little took place. Nothing is getting done, the police force we are trying to train is a joke by all reports and it is quickly becoming a religious/civil war. We can talk and chest pound how great and powerful we are until we are blue in the face but in the end we are nothing more then an foreign occupation that just causes more problems in the short and long term future. It was pure hubris on our part to think we could take a country, let alone a country in that region, with three different religious groups and turn it into a peaceful democracy. We could have used our resources on people who are truly out to get us or use us as a way to ralley people to do bad things to others. Instead we just did something that helped fuel those poeple's fire. We will withdrawl and it will be in failure. The only questions are, how much, the cost in lives and dollars and what future damage it may bring. toserve, I think you're right on. Our Troops are very good at winning wars but when it becomes an "occupation" no Troops are good at that! At that point it just becomes a shooting gallery. Just like if a foreign invader tried to occupy the U.S. With more than 300 million firearms in the hands of the Citizens here it wouldn't last long for the occupiers. They'd be stung real bad. Like Bush said; "Mission Accomplished." They got Saddam. Our part is done! Winning a war is meaningless without winning the peace and the politicians were warned of this at the outset and BY THE MILITARY of all people. It kills me that it won't be the people who started this sad affair that will suffer the consequences of it. Bush has accomplished absolutely NOTHING! What happens if the US leaves and someone gets control of Iraq that is worse than Saddam? Would that still count as one part done? It seems an awful lot of wasted lives to me. But all that is irrelevent. The only relevent thing now is where to from here. Talking seems the best place to start and Bush refuses to talk to anyone but people who agree with him which is why the next presidential election can't come quick enough for all concerned.

popeye1250 -> RE: Iraq Withdraw (11/7/2006 11:51:48 AM)
Meat, it's in the hands of the Iraqi People now. Sink or swim. I'm sick and tired of my country doing things "for" other peoples.

UtopianRanger -> RE: Iraq Withdraw (11/7/2006 11:53:33 AM)
quote: We can talk and chest pound how great and powerful we are until we are blue in the face but in the end we are nothing more then an foreign occupation that just causes more problems in the short and long term future. It was pure hubris on our part to think we could take a country, let alone a country in that region, with three different religious groups and turn it into a peaceful democracy. We could have used our resources on people who are truly out to get us or use us as a way to ralley people to do bad things to others. Instead we just did something that helped fuel those poeple's fire. Yanno a lot of the wavering and unsureness I see coming from people centers along this whole brainwashed, false-pride mentality. There's no such thing as pride when you've got your hands tied behind your back and your opponent has C-4 strapped to his body and is ready kill himself in order to see you go down. The ''pride'' I know is mano-e-mano straight up, no hands tied behind your back. The ''pride'' talk I see on the television, hear on the radio and see posted elsewhere, is talk from blithering idiots and dumb-shits. - R

toservez -> RE: Iraq Withdraw (11/7/2006 11:53:37 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: caitlyn I'm reminded that when the troops hit some difficulty on Omaha Beach, most of Ike's advisors suggested he withdraw. When Bastone was encircled, one of our lovely allies suggested that the situation was hopeless and we needed to pull back. Most in Europe, told us that getting involved in the Balkans, would widen the conflict. We do not yet know what will happen in Iraq. None of us were at the NSC meeting two days ago ... we have the picture the media is presenting to us ... and we all know that the media never lies or presents information designed to sell more media. [8\|][8\|][8\|][8\|][8\|][8\|][8\|][8\|][8\|][8\|][8\|][8\|][8\|] I do not think they were stuck or giving up portions of Omaha beach and correct me if I am wrong but the fight lasted less then a day and they also changed tatics during the day. Iraq has lasted years and no strategy changes. In WWII we were freeing foriegn occupators. In Iraq we ARE the foreign occupier. I think a better comparison is Vietnam. Have we had any reports from the media, generals and foot soldiers of the violence getting better? Are the death rates going down?

meatcleaver -> RE: Iraq Withdraw (11/7/2006 12:07:59 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: popeye1250 Meat, it's in the hands of the Iraqi People now. Sink or swim. It was always in the hands of the Iraqi people. You say that as though the USand Britain have helped them out.

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