RE: Iraq Withdraw

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meatcleaver -> RE: Iraq Withdraw (11/8/2006 3:26:35 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: NeedToUseYou I don't understand this new concept of war, everyone talks about winning hearts and minds. War has never been about hearts and minds, it's about beating your enemy into the ground until he is dead or will do anything so you give him a piece of bread. I'm not a history scholar but I don't recall any war that has been fought like this before the 50's and later. The US in my opinion should never go to war if the concern is winning hearts and minds. War is for killing and destroying your enemy in total. If we aren't going to do that then we shouldn't of fired a shot. I've heard many Americans say something similar to this and this is America's weakness. War can only be part of any foreign policy, if it is seen as the whole solution it will fail. One shouldn't get fixated on the total crushing of the enemy, apart from WWII, when did it last happen? It didn't happen in WWI and anyway you have to be fighting a state or conventional enemy to have this sort of victory. Iraq is occupied and there is no conventional army to fight so crushing the enemy is impossible short of something akin to genocide. Bush should have been talking to Syria and Iran long ago but he refused and I'm wondering if this is something to do with the American protestant culture of no compromise. Blair said right at the beginning that without finding a solution to the Israeli-Palestinian problem there won't be a long term solution in the middle east which has me wondering why he agreed to join the war in the first place. In one of his more lucid and less messianic moments he said that the middle east has a series of nationalist and territorial conflicts that need solving. Which again baffles me as to why he so merrily went along with Bush's policy which so many people said would fail from the outset. Bush needs to change policy on a whole series of issues in the middle east, Lebanon, the Israeli-Palestinian problem, Syria which was reforming before Bush's attitude towards Syria forced them back into retrenchment and Iran. If he did something about these, he might not have to change policy in Iraq that much because he would have Iraqi neighbours whose interest it would be to seal their borders and not arm the insurgents.

meatcleaver -> RE: Iraq Withdraw (11/8/2006 3:41:32 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: NorthernGent The solution: 1) The US Government should keep out of the region. This would not solve the terrorist problem in the west and since other powers will fill the vacuum should America keep out, its not a solution. A change of policy is desirable. 2) The problem is, the US economy is propped up by oil thus making it difficult for the Government to keep out of the region. Conservation and new technologies is really what every western government should be about, not just America. 3) The other problem is, 180 million? Americans support the Governments policies in the region. I don't think that is true, people vote on a whole range of issues, its like saying everyone that voted Labour is for the war and we both know that is not true. It is just so difficult for the public to influence a sitting government, this is true of Britain as well as America. 4) Thus, the underlying real solutions are a) a change to the education system so that at least 30 million Americans develop a brain and some compassion (thus tipping the voting balance the other way) b) a change to the economic structure - particularly around fuel supply. This is just insulting.

thompsonx -> RE: Iraq Withdraw (11/8/2006 5:31:10 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Royalton it is a catch 22, if you leave the terrorists will be encouraged and the fascists governments like Iran will be prone to spread their form of government to others (Iraq); and if you stay with all the negative press it is hard to keep going. Royalton: I thought the leader of Iran was elected and that Iran was a republic. How do you get facist out of that? In my study of history I have yet to find any country that was successful in exporting its form of government into another country. thompsosn

thompsonx -> RE: Iraq Withdraw (11/8/2006 6:05:54 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: NeedToUseYou Didn't read the whole thread but in reply to the OP. I think I'm in agreement for withdrawal, not because Iraq can't be won, but because it's obvious the US doesn't have the stomach for a solution. I don't understand this new concept of war, everyone talks about winning hearts and minds. War has never been about hearts and minds, it's about beating your enemy into the ground until he is dead or will do anything so you give him a piece of bread. I'm not a history scholar but I don't recall any war that has been fought like this before the 50's and later. The US in my opinion should never go to war if the concern is winning hearts and minds. War is for killing and destroying your enemy in total. If we aren't going to do that then we shouldn't of fired a shot. So, since we as a country aren't going to break the country, I see no reason to be there. This has been my view since the beginning, we started off well, shock and awe. Then it turned to minimal and ineffective. War is ultimately for killing and forcing people into submission, if that isn't your goal you should do something else. NeedToUseYou: Actually very few wars in history have been fought for the total annihilation of the enemy. The Punic wars of Rome against the Phoenicians would fall into that catagory. Even in WWII we allowed the Axis powers to maintain their boarders, their culture and in the case of Japan even their emperor The USMC in the 1930's wrote the definitive treatise on this concept with it's "Manual for Small Wars" War is not for killing and destroying your enemy...war is for convincincing the other side with force what you could not persuade them to do with rhetoric. thompson

meatcleaver -> RE: Iraq Withdraw (11/8/2006 6:11:15 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: thompsonx quote: ORIGINAL: Royalton it is a catch 22, if you leave the terrorists will be encouraged and the fascists governments like Iran will be prone to spread their form of government to others (Iraq); and if you stay with all the negative press it is hard to keep going. Royalton: I thought the leader of Iran was elected and that Iran was a republic. How do you get facist out of that? In my study of history I have yet to find any country that was successful in exporting its form of government into another country. thompsosn Britain to Canada, Australia, New Zealand, India and a blossoming democracy was in place in the American colonies before the war of independence but actually going in and planting a democracy without seed corn, no, not to my recollection.

thompsonx -> RE: Iraq Withdraw (11/8/2006 6:16:13 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: ViborgHerre Well Some people still cling to their childhood romaticism that the Vietnam war was a liberation from oppression - rather than the real situation : the conquest of South Vietnam by a neighbour Communist country North Vietnam - with the oppressionand tyrany common from that kind of situations..... I refer of course to the Soviet Union and the "liberation" of Poland, Hungary , Rumania ect, ect A withdrawal - without "adequate " support to an new goverment - elected by the people and supported by the people will be a sad thing to the Iraqi people. US will have less military losses and the capacity- if perhaps not the desire - for new military intervetion .... OTOH a goodby to Saudi Arabia will not be possible. So - I hope that the USA will consider rather carefully the aailable options. The lack of any "Pul out of Iraq NOW" from the Democratic leadership gives me hope for a sensible solution. Regards Peter Peter: I am one of those who cling to the notion (childish or not) that north Viet nam and south Viet nam are one country divided by the U.S. and reunited by Ho Chi Minh. thompson

mnottertail -> RE: Iraq Withdraw (11/8/2006 6:30:29 AM)
Ja, lets not get into this bruhaha and say that it was a civil war and even tho we were in it because the dominoes would fall long after the french said fuck it and walked away, and that it was and is one country when the facts are so easy to dismiss thereby giving a great deal of credence to those that sing the --- Well ok, we stomped in there without cause, without thought to ramifications, without a plan, without...without...without-- but jesus christ, we can't just walk out and leave it in the mess like we caused and did in Vietnam or Granada, or the Falklands, or Panama or Bay of Pigs or Iran or Nicaragua or....or...or Because the sky will fall in....and we will look like idiots. Well, like Marilyn Chambers said about deep-throating Holmes--- Hey, it is just another act...........

cloudboy -> RE: Iraq Withdraw (11/8/2006 7:07:27 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: caitlyn I'm reminded that when the troops hit some difficulty on Omaha Beach, most of Ike's advisors suggested he withdraw. When Bastone was encircled, one of our lovely allies suggested that the situation was hopeless and we needed to pull back. Most in Europe, told us that getting involved in the Balkans, would widen the conflict. We do not yet know what will happen in Iraq. None of us were at the NSC meeting two days ago ... we have the picture the media is presenting to us ... and we all know that the media never lies or presents information designed to sell more media. [8\|][8\|][8\|][8\|][8\|][8\|][8\|][8\|][8\|][8\|][8\|][8\|][8\|] Luckily most American voters aren't mired in poor and inapposite WWII anologies. The Balkan analogy is funny because most Republicans opposed going in there, but your comparision is a bad one because you seem to be comparing pre-war talk to post/mid war analysis. I pretty much agree with Heidrick Hertzberg's analysis, and the title of Bob Woodward's book best sums up the state of the current administration. >In 2002 and 2004, the ruling party avoided retribution for offenses like these by exploiting the fear of terrorism. What is different this time is that the overwhelming failure of the Administration’s Iraq gamble is now apparent to all. This war of choice has pointlessly drained American military strength, undermined what had originally appeared to be success in Afghanistan, handed the Iranian mullahs a strategic victory, immunized the North Korean regime from a forceful response to its nuclear defiance, and compromised American leadership of the democratic world. You can read all about it, not only in the government’s own recently leaked National Intelligence Estimate, which reports that the Iraq war has intensified the danger of Islamist terrorism, but also in a shelf of books—a score or more of them, beginning two and a half years ago with Richard A. Clarke’s “Against All Enemies” and continuing through Bob Woodward’s “State of Denial”—that document the mendacity, incompetence, lawlessness, and ideological arrogance surrounding the origins and conduct of that war.< Our system of checks and balances was subverted by Republican hegemony, now at least the President will be subject to some congressional oversight. I can't fucking wait.

thompsonx -> RE: Iraq Withdraw (11/8/2006 7:12:10 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: mnottertail Ja, lets not get into this bruhaha and say that it was a civil war and even tho we were in it because the dominoes would fall long after the french said fuck it and walked away, and that it was and is one country when the facts are so easy to dismiss thereby giving a great deal of credence to those that sing the --- Well ok, we stomped in there without cause, without thought to ramifications, without a plan, without...without...without-- but jesus christ, we can't just walk out and leave it in the mess like we caused and did in Vietnam or Granada, or the Falklands, or Panama or Bay of Pigs or Iran or Nicaragua or....or...or Because the sky will fall in....and we will look like idiots. Well, like Marilyn Chambers said about deep-throating Holmes--- Hey, it is just another act........... mnottertail It would appear that the mess we left in Viet nam seems to have been cleaned up by the vietnamese...I understand that they now have both MacDonalds and KFC which they did not the last time I was there. I am not sure what mess you are talking about that we left at the Bay of Pigs. You are incorrect in saying that the U.S. looks like an idiot. We look like thugs not idiots. thompson

Sinergy -> RE: Iraq Withdraw (11/8/2006 7:17:01 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: mnottertail Well, why is it a big deal if the Iranians set up a puppet government or we do? Hello A/all, Not that I agree with this analysis as a motivation for the United States to do anything, because some cluster-fucks have no solution, but... Whoever sets up a government in Iraq will have more oil than Saudi Arabia still under the ground, and if they do not market it in american dollars the economy of the United States ends up getting savagely raped. My solution is to get rid of our addiction to oil, in which case we no longer need their product and they can all rot. Just me, could be wrong, but there you go. Sinergy

caitlyn -> RE: Iraq Withdraw (11/8/2006 12:45:42 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: cloudboy Luckily most American voters aren't mired in poor and inapposite WWII anologies. The Balkan analogy is funny because most Republicans opposed going in there, but your comparision is a bad one because you seem to be comparing pre-war talk to post/mid war analysis. To you perhaps. To me, clearly not. To me, you are disputing points that are completely off base to the point I was actually making ... which is your right, of course. The point of view that the outcome in Iraq is still in question, is at least as valid as the one that insists that the final outcome is already know. The problem is, that the people holding the latter position, can't back away from the notion that the people that hold the first, are somehow supporting the administration. Those are blinders just as securely in place, as the ones worn by our President. You will have to excuse some of us, for actually wanting to win in Iraq. If you can't see the difference between wanting to win, and blind support for this administration ... then you are being roughly as objective as this administration. I don't support these guys ... I just don't think it's in our interest to admit defeat, and be defeated. We don't HAVE to loose ... we CAN win. There IS a way. That is the only comparison that is applicable to specific examples from the Second World War, and the only comparision I was trying to make ... but I'm sure you knew that already. One thing you learn from reading these boards ... war opponents play by the same dirty rules as war proponents. Perhaps that's why I differ with both sides. I neither differ or support ... I just accept that a stupid mistake was made, and feel we should get the best outcome we possible can out of a pretty screwed up situation.

mnottertail -> RE: Iraq Withdraw (11/8/2006 12:51:06 PM)
what does a win look like? and how is it accomplished?

popeye1250 -> RE: Iraq Withdraw (11/8/2006 12:55:23 PM)
LOL, let Iran try to take over Iraq! We can spend short money and feed the Iraqi insurgents and bankrupt Iran after ten years.

caitlyn -> RE: Iraq Withdraw (11/8/2006 12:58:53 PM)
I don't really know, but I certainly know what it doesn't look like. We have made a big, nasty, fucking mess of someone else's country. Cleaning up our mess and not allowing hundreds of thousands of innocent civilians to pay the price of a brutal civil war, would be a good start. Perhaps even a good finish.

mnottertail -> RE: Iraq Withdraw (11/8/2006 1:00:37 PM)
That won't have any reason to fall into a physical war, that is a war for hearts and minds predisposed to the agressor. So, I don't think anything in the RedCrossey area is gonna do any good...... And, just the backlash from the square dance we have been doing is going to send them that direction whether their hearts and minds are firmly bound or not......... note the recent elections hereabouts, so now its not votiing for anybody but bush, but anybody that associates with bush. We shall see, popster... Ron

candystripper -> RE: Iraq Withdraw (11/8/2006 1:01:31 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth quote: Hizbullah Secretary-General Hassan Nasrallah: When We Were Young, I cannot Forget the Sight of American Forces leaving Vietnam, and the Americans Abandoning their Vietnamese Allies, I Anticipate the Same for our Region . I'm on record saying the US should abandon the country and people of Iraq. This link gives you the perspective of how the other side will view that action: http://littlegreenfootballs.com/weblog/?entry=23245_Hizballah_Leader-_Like_They_Left_Vietnam&only There are plenty of "givens". If you want to talk about the past or say we shouldn't have gone there in the first place. I'll stipulate agreement, because its immaterial to the question of "now what?" I am torn about how to feel about this. I still support withdraw, but there seems to be more on the table within the region than just Iraq. Integrity of a person is hard to reestablish. This situation concerns the integrity of a county, my county. Your comments are appreciated. Firstly, Mercnbeth, lovely new picture. One of my criticisms of the Wars in Afganistan and Iraq was that i could not formulate an end-game, no matter how ridiculous. i have repeatedly said i fear the return of the draft. i presume nowadays both O/our male and female unmentionables would be subject to the draft. Once in place, look for the remants of the G.I. Bill to disappear entirely. The United States Military is currently deployed to more locations than at any time throughout history. The military operations conducted by US military forces include deployment in Africa, the Carrbbean, East Asia, Eastern Europe, the Middle East, the Pacific, South America, Southeast Asia and Western Europe.. http://deploymentlink.osd.mil/deploy/info/index.sh.. candystripper

toservez -> RE: Iraq Withdraw (11/8/2006 1:02:06 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: mnottertail what does a win look like? and how is it accomplished? I think that is what most of America is in agreement with. Sure some are of the nature just leave and let them fight it out, but most realize that a stable violence free country is not going to happen on our watch. Personally I think most people think a victory at this stage is how do we get out of there for the least current or future damage/danger possible. This is what I think really bugs mosts of us. We do not want to just give up but we need to be honest about the situation and it's future and deal with it and consider what we are goinig to get out of it and what it is costing us in other areas. Lets stop this simplisitc wrap ourselves in the flag approach and deal with the situation.

caitlyn -> RE: Iraq Withdraw (11/8/2006 1:12:58 PM)
The best proposal I have heard, is the one where we redeploy our current forces to southern Iraq, in order to: a) establish a humanitarian center that will be much needed as the country lapses into civil war, b) protect Iraq's oil assets, c) discourage Iran from overt actions in Iraqi affairs, d) place our forces in a more defendable position, cutting down on American casualties With the goal of allowing Iraq to determine it's future the old fashioned way. I believe this was an option presented by John McCain in Meet the Press, but don't quote me on that.

Chaingang -> RE: Iraq Withdraw (11/8/2006 1:21:28 PM)
Caitlyn: All of those things presume control of Iraq. They're not gonna happen.

caitlyn -> RE: Iraq Withdraw (11/8/2006 1:50:40 PM)
I think his (whomever it was) point of view was based on control of an area where we have enough troops to do the job.

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