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RE: Iraq Withdraw - 11/7/2006 12:20:39 PM   
popeye1250


Posts: 18104
Joined: 1/27/2006
From: New Hampshire
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quote:

ORIGINAL: toservez

quote:

ORIGINAL: caitlyn

I'm reminded that when the troops hit some difficulty on Omaha Beach, most of Ike's advisors suggested he withdraw. When Bastone was encircled, one of our lovely allies suggested that the situation was hopeless and we needed to pull back. Most in Europe, told us that getting involved in the Balkans, would widen the conflict.
 
We do not yet know what will happen in Iraq. None of us were at the NSC meeting two days ago ... we have the picture the media is presenting to us ... and we all know that the media never lies or presents information designed to sell more media.


I do not think they were stuck or giving up portions of Omaha beach and correct me if I am wrong but the fight lasted less then a day and they also changed tatics during the day. Iraq has lasted years and no strategy changes.

In WWII we were freeing foriegn occupators. In Iraq we ARE the foreign occupier.

I think a better comparison is Vietnam. Have we had any reports from the media, generals and foot soldiers of the violence getting better? Are the death rates going down?



toserve, right again about Omaha Beach.
The U.S.S. Mc Cook and a few other U.S. Navy Destroyers went close in on the beach at the risk of grounding themselves and proceeded to start blasting away at machine gun nests, big artillary pieces and anywhere else that they saw flashes comming (from) the beach with their 5 " guns.
The Troops on the beach had no artillary pieces at that time just small arms.
The Navy did a real number on the Germans too!
I've seen pictures from afterward with Germans half buried and shell-shocked and their equipment torn to pieces by the Naval gunfire.


(in reply to toservez)
Profile   Post #: 21
RE: Iraq Withdraw - 11/7/2006 12:21:30 PM   
caitlyn


Posts: 3473
Joined: 12/22/2004
Status: offline 		Yes, we were quite stuck on Omaha Beach, but that isn't really the point. The point is, that you can always find someone ready to give up, as soon as things don't go well. Nothing new there.
 
I admit that my point of view is based on someone I know that is actualy there ... not a general, but not far from it. He tells me to be very skeptical of what the media presents, because the media is mostly there to get a story, and bad news sells. I'm not asking you to accept that point of view, I'm only presenting it as an understanding of why I think we need to wait and see before making rash decisons ... sort of like how we should have waited before going in the first place.
 
I don't feel Vietnam is a good comparison ... much longer conflict, with different goals and a far higher casualty count.

(in reply to toservez)
Profile   Post #: 22
RE: Iraq Withdraw - 11/7/2006 12:46:57 PM   
toservez


Posts: 1733
Joined: 9/7/2006
From: All over now in Minnesota
Status: offline 		I think whenever you bring up what is the messanger's motive for reporting information it is a valid point. In this case and in this time though there is nobody reporting, not even the President, is talking about things improving. It seems to be part of the process that a recently retired Generals, who are not known for being liberals, to speak out about what is happening. Just last week the military made an effort to shut down regular soldier's blogs. My own personal opinion is the media is not reporting the overall good things excuse has sailed when the U.S. government does not even try that as an excuse anymore.

I hope you are right that it is not another Vietnam, but all I know it is now in multiple years and the people of the country do not want us there and foreign governments are pumping in money and people into the country. Sounds an awful lot like Vietnam.

< Message edited by toservez -- 11/7/2006 12:48:10 PM >

_____________________________

I am sorry I do not fit Webster's defintion of a slave but thankfully my Master is not Webster.

"Anything that contradicts experience and logic should be abandoned." - H.H. The 14th Dalai Lama

(in reply to caitlyn)
Profile   Post #: 23
RE: Iraq Withdraw - 11/7/2006 12:48:24 PM   
lookn4yin


Posts: 11
Joined: 10/15/2006
Status: offline 		Unfortunately we will "stay the course", unless both the House and the Senate switch.  Now have we learned that elective wars do not work?

If you are in Virginia or Missouri or Tennessee, it is within your power to move us back to center, get out there!

(in reply to meatcleaver)
Profile   Post #: 24
RE: Iraq Withdraw - 11/7/2006 1:45:26 PM   
NorthernGent


Posts: 8730
Joined: 7/10/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth

I'm on record saying the US should abandon the country and people of Iraq. This link gives you the perspective of how the other side will view that action:

This situation concerns the integrity of a county, my county.

Your comments are appreciated.



You're singing from the same hymn sheet as the multi-nationals.

1) The Government/military reduced the place to rubble.

2) US multi-nationals were handed contracts to rebuild the place (e.g. Bechtel - $2.3bn over 3 years to repair infrastructure, utility supply and sewage systems).

3) Now the US multi-nationals like Bechtel are pulling out because their concern is the US. They've made their millions now time to leave.

4) The word abandon is misplaced here because it implies the US Government once considered the interests of the Iraqi people in order to abandon them. This is blatantly incorrect.

5) Your Government demolishes places and then hands out contracts to US corporations to rebuild them and pipe oil. I'm struggling to see this claimed integrity. For my money, the Americans who have integrity are those that oppose the US Government and the conservativism that underpins this brand of foreign policy. The rest - they're not worth a wank.

_____________________________

I have the courage to be a coward - but not beyond my limits.

Sooner or later, the man who wins is the man who thinks he can.

(in reply to Mercnbeth)
Profile   Post #: 25
RE: Iraq Withdraw - 11/7/2006 1:55:13 PM   
Mercnbeth


Posts: 11766
Status: offline 		Since nobody has provided a idea, how's this. We leave but as "parting gifts" we provide Iran with nuclear capability. Just to be fair, we give some to each Islamic faction; Kurd, Shiite, and Sunni. They can determine where each group's supply be delivered.

Our "allies", French, Germany, Russia, may be upset because they didn't get the opportunity to sell it to them. However, they should be happy that yet another enemy of Israel has nuclear weapons. It would show that the US is not just there as a protector of Israel. Think how Iran would feel? Currently Iran is one of the few countries supporting the Iraqi court decision to execute Saddam. However, with Iraq as a nuclear neighbor the balance between those two countries will remain after US departure.

Don't dismiss this idea. Nuclear weapons will spread in the world anyway. If isolated and secure the next step would be to make them long range. If everyone in the neighborhood has them, the same MAD deterrent would exist as it did during the "cold war". It worked then, why wouldn't it work now?

(in reply to lookn4yin)
Profile   Post #: 26
RE: Iraq Withdraw - 11/7/2006 1:57:56 PM   
NorthernGent


Posts: 8730
Joined: 7/10/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Zensee

My concern is for Afganistan. I'd hate to see the return of the Taliban and their revenge on the western sympathisers. If the UN, US and Nato troops concentrated there they might have a chance to make a relatively calm oasis. Not just a military presence but significant work on restoring and improving infrastructure, education, health. Even bread and circuses would be better than guns.



The notion that only the Taliban oppose the occupation of their country is a popular misconception. Every time there is any sort of resistance it is claimed to be the "Taliban". In fact, the whole region along the Pakistani/Afghan border is a production line of tribes who are not prepared to accept Western influence in their country - many are not aligned with the Taliban.

In sum, the Afghans will continue killing Western forces until they have withdrawn.

_____________________________

I have the courage to be a coward - but not beyond my limits.

Sooner or later, the man who wins is the man who thinks he can.

(in reply to Zensee)
Profile   Post #: 27
RE: Iraq Withdraw - 11/7/2006 2:01:45 PM   
popeye1250


Posts: 18104
Joined: 1/27/2006
From: New Hampshire
Status: offline 		Gent, and it's not just the conservatives!
LBJ a Democrat did the same thing only on a larger scale in Vietnam with 500,000 Troops instead of 150,000 Troops and who knows how much money.
And people still think that "Isolationism" is a bad word.

(in reply to NorthernGent)
Profile   Post #: 28
RE: Iraq Withdraw - 11/7/2006 2:04:52 PM   
Mercnbeth


Posts: 11766
Status: offline
quote:

1) The Government/military reduced the place to rubble.

2) US multi-nationals were handed contracts to rebuild the place (e.g. Bechtel - $2.3bn over 3 years to repair infrastructure, utility supply and sewage systems).

3) Now the US multi-nationals like Bechtel are pulling out because their concern is the US. They've made their millions now time to leave.

4) The word abandon is misplaced here because it implies the US Government once considered the interests of the Iraqi people in order to abandon them. This is blatantly incorrect.

5) Your Government demolishes places and then hands out contracts to US corporations to rebuild them and pipe oil. I'm struggling to see this claimed integrity. For my money, the Americans who have integrity are those that oppose the US Government and the conservativism that underpins this brand of foreign policy. The rest - they're not worth a wank.


Thanks for your suggestions regarding the "what next"?

Whoops, you didn't make any - what a surprise! I bet if you were asked what the weather will be like yesterday, you'd get that right too.

(in reply to NorthernGent)
Profile   Post #: 29
RE: Iraq Withdraw - 11/7/2006 2:18:21 PM   
meatcleaver


Posts: 9030
Joined: 3/13/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent

The notion that only the Taliban oppose the occupation of their country is a popular misconception. Every time there is any sort of resistance it is claimed to be the "Taliban". In fact, the whole region along the Pakistani/Afghan border is a production line of tribes who are not prepared to accept Western influence in their country - many are not aligned with the Taliban.

In sum, the Afghans will continue killing Western forces until they have withdrawn.


After 9/11, the US had every right to invade Afghanistan and just about the whole world thought so. Whether it was wise that is another thing but it was probably the right thing to do. Where it all went wrong was invading Iraq because there wasn't any reason to invade Iraq and the troops in Iraq would have been bettter used in Afghanistan where they were needed.

The drug trade is killing thousands of westerners so I don't mind the laying waste of thousands of acres of Afghanistan which is not what is happening but if it were, then the Afghans have themselves to blame. I have no sympathy for murderers and the Taliban are murderers, no matter which way you look at it.

< Message edited by meatcleaver -- 11/7/2006 2:23:06 PM >

(in reply to NorthernGent)
Profile   Post #: 30
RE: Iraq Withdraw - 11/7/2006 2:35:50 PM   
NorthernGent


Posts: 8730
Joined: 7/10/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent

The notion that only the Taliban oppose the occupation of their country is a popular misconception. Every time there is any sort of resistance it is claimed to be the "Taliban". In fact, the whole region along the Pakistani/Afghan border is a production line of tribes who are not prepared to accept Western influence in their country - many are not aligned with the Taliban.

In sum, the Afghans will continue killing Western forces until they have withdrawn.


After 9/11, the US had every right to invade Afghanistan and just about the whole world thought so. Whether it was wise that is another thing but it was probably the right thing to do.



There is some truth in the above.

There was a certain amount of support due to a) sympathy for what happened in New York b) terrorists were deemed to be operating out of Afghanistan.

On the other side of the coin, there were objections due to a) many believed the real reason for the invasion was to pipe oil out of the Caspian Sea region and install a US friendly regime to act as an ally in the region b) the killing of civilians.







_____________________________

I have the courage to be a coward - but not beyond my limits.

Sooner or later, the man who wins is the man who thinks he can.

(in reply to meatcleaver)
Profile   Post #: 31
RE: Iraq Withdraw - 11/7/2006 2:58:01 PM   
LockHerUp


Posts: 6
Joined: 2/22/2006
Status: offline 		But if we withdraw, the communists will just take over one country after another and it'll be a domino effect across the region...oh wait, that was in the 60s. I can't seem to tell my Evil Empire from my Axis of Evil. Oh well.

Bret

(in reply to Mercnbeth)
Profile   Post #: 32
RE: Iraq Withdraw - 11/7/2006 3:06:05 PM   
MissyRane


Posts: 1032
Joined: 5/11/2005
Status: offline 		Most of this gawd damn arguments and wars are based on religion..why not just forbid religion over there :D :D :D :D bad idea I know I just felt like being an ass no offence everybody...

(in reply to LockHerUp)
Profile   Post #: 33
RE: Iraq Withdraw - 11/7/2006 3:10:49 PM   
mnottertail


Posts: 60698
Joined: 11/3/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth

Since nobody has provided a idea, how's this.


I provided one...........

Ron


_____________________________

Have they not divided the prey; to every man a damsel or two? Judges 5:30


(in reply to Mercnbeth)
Profile   Post #: 34
RE: Iraq Withdraw - 11/7/2006 3:18:05 PM   
LockHerUp


Posts: 6
Joined: 2/22/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: toservez

I think whenever you bring up what is the messanger's motive for reporting information it is a valid point. In this case and in this time though there is nobody reporting, not even the President, is talking about things improving. It seems to be part of the process that a recently retired Generals, who are not known for being liberals, to speak out about what is happening. Just last week the military made an effort to shut down regular soldier's blogs. My own personal opinion is the media is not reporting the overall good things excuse has sailed when the U.S. government does not even try that as an excuse anymore.

I hope you are right that it is not another Vietnam, but all I know it is now in multiple years and the people of the country do not want us there and foreign governments are pumping in money and people into the country. Sounds an awful lot like Vietnam.

Well so far it's not like Vietnam - about one third as many troops and less than a tenth of the (US) deaths. So though it was started like Vietnam (based on a pack of lies), and though it has been run like Vietnam (with stupid disregard for the facts on the ground), there is still hope it won't end like Vietnam.

(in reply to toservez)
Profile   Post #: 35
RE: Iraq Withdraw - 11/7/2006 3:33:00 PM   
Sinergy


Posts: 9383
Joined: 4/26/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail

Iran and Turkey are gonna be the spoilers there.

Turkey wants the Kurds back. Now we might just get by with telling them uh-uh.....in fairly strong terms.

Iran and Iraq have been fighting about whether it was spelled with a Q or spelled with an N for a long time.

Saddam was boasting about having nuclear programs 12-20 years ago, for the facade of keeping up with the Iranians, and everybody knew it....

Because Iran has had it's eye on putting the fundamentalism right in that country for awhile.

Which would mean Saddam leaving power, which we just helped them with and why him and Cheney and Rumsfield were good buddies once upon a time. 

But that country will be rather quickly taking a turn for Islamic Fundamentalism. 


Ron 


I disagree with the idea that our invasion of Iraq had anything to do with religion.  The entire war was about oil from the get go.

Saudi Arabia is cutting back production because they are running out of oil, and by secret agreement with the United States going way back the Saudis can only sell their oil for american dollars.

Iraq was prevented by UN sanctions from selling it for years, so they are sitting on a vast quantity of oil.  Venezuala has quite a bit of oil, but they are under no compunctions to sell to the United States or do all oil trades using the US dollar.  The United States went in to Iraq around the time that Saddam Hussein started indicating he would be interested in selling oil, but only taking Eurodollars to pay for it.  If Iraq were to start actively selling their oil on the world market for Eurodollars, the United States would be forced to enter into competitive bidding for it against countries like China and Europe, using a currency we do not control.

Were UN sanctions lifted, Saddam could have unseated Saudi Arabia's control of oil prices, and dropped the bottom out of the oil market by not having to sell under OPEC's pricing structure.

I tend to doubt that Iran or Turkey will invade if the US pulls out, or even that Russia will invade.  What will happen is that China will agree to retool their oil industry and help establish a military government, and then turn around and buy all their oil with their current liquidity.

Just me, etc.

Sinergy

What the US really needs to do is sever our reliance on petroleum products and let all of them rot.  But as long as we have Big Oil, Big Defense, and Big Auto running the show in the United States, this is unlikely to happen any time soon.

Just me, could be wrong, but there you go.

Sinergy

_____________________________

"There is a fine line between clever and stupid"
David St. Hubbins "This Is Spinal Tap"

"Every so often you let a word or phrase out and you want to catch it and bring it back. You cant do that, it is gone, gone forever." J. Danforth Quayle


(in reply to mnottertail)
Profile   Post #: 36
RE: Iraq Withdraw - 11/7/2006 3:34:58 PM   
Sinergy


Posts: 9383
Joined: 4/26/2004
Status: offline 		Hello A/all,

On a related note, the first name for the offensive to unseat Iraq was known as "Operation Iraqi Liberation" until somebody pointed out that the acronym of that was OIL.

Apparently, somebody in the government thought that the citizens of the world might get funny ideas about why the US was invading, so they named it "Operation Iraqi Freedom."

Just me, could be wrong, but there you go.

Sinergy

_____________________________

"There is a fine line between clever and stupid"
David St. Hubbins "This Is Spinal Tap"

"Every so often you let a word or phrase out and you want to catch it and bring it back. You cant do that, it is gone, gone forever." J. Danforth Quayle


(in reply to Sinergy)
Profile   Post #: 37
RE: Iraq Withdraw - 11/7/2006 3:38:54 PM   
Mercnbeth


Posts: 11766
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail
quote:

ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth
Since nobody has provided a idea, how's this.

I provided one...........
Ron


Ron,
My apologies, was it this one?
quote:

They aughta put him back where he was, he'll have control of the shithole in a couple weeks.


Well hell, that was my original suggestion to the poll question "Do you feel Saddam be hung or get life..."
quote:

I think he should be set free to be allowed to continue his work of killing more of his citizens. He does a much better job than the US, because he doens't have to be concerned about the media coverage. I'm sure 60 Minutes will even profile him again, and talk about his humane methods of executions, tortures, and rapes.
I wasn't going to give you credit for that!

(in reply to mnottertail)
Profile   Post #: 38
RE: Iraq Withdraw - 11/7/2006 3:39:39 PM   
mnottertail


Posts: 60698
Joined: 11/3/2004
Status: offline 		How fuckin' dumb is that?  Why on earth would they call it OIF?  How am I supposed to get Oil in Furnaces outta that, without having to think about it?

Ron


_____________________________

Have they not divided the prey; to every man a damsel or two? Judges 5:30


(in reply to Sinergy)
Profile   Post #: 39
RE: Iraq Withdraw - 11/7/2006 3:49:48 PM   
WyrdRich


Posts: 1733
Joined: 1/3/2005
Status: offline 		     I just read a great piece on Civilization Watch by Orson Scott Card (dated oct. 29 06).  Man I wish I was better with a 'puter and could post a link, because he nails it.

(in reply to Mercnbeth)
Profile   Post #: 40
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