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RE: Are we becoming a banned society? - 11/9/2006 9:19:55 PM   
juliaoceania


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From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lordandmaster

Vegans don't tell you what you can eat in your kitchen.  They (want to) tell corporations what harmful additives they can't put into the food they sell just to save a buck.  I think that's a crucial difference--one that clever right-wing rhetoric always tries to obscure.


Well some vegans do want to stop us all from eating meat.

Most just want control over what they put in their own bodies.

_____________________________

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(in reply to Lordandmaster)
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RE: Are we becoming a banned society? - 11/10/2006 12:09:00 AM   
Sinergy


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Joined: 4/26/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: RazorJAK

Shrubbie McFuckstick the Smirking Chimp



I get chastized for pages and pages on another thread for referring to the Simian In Chief as "Monkeyboy" because somebody felt I might be using that term derogatorily to denigrate the Idiot that A Village In Texas Has Misplaced.

Then I get put down because I was insulting monkeys.

Sinergy

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RE: Are we becoming a banned society? - 11/10/2006 12:10:27 AM   
Sinergy


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Joined: 4/26/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lordandmaster

Vegans don't tell you what you can eat in your kitchen.  They (want to) tell corporations what harmful additives they can't put into the food they sell just to save a buck.  I think that's a crucial difference--one that clever right-wing rhetoric always tries to obscure.


Well some vegans do want to stop us all from eating meat.

Most just want control over what they put in their own bodies.


This is not really a bash at anybody or anything on this thread, but I run out of fingers and toes when I count up the number of self-styled Vegans wearing leather shoes and belts.

Just me, probably wrong, but I can work with that.

Sinergy

_____________________________

"There is a fine line between clever and stupid"
David St. Hubbins "This Is Spinal Tap"

"Every so often you let a word or phrase out and you want to catch it and bring it back. You cant do that, it is gone, gone forever." J. Danforth Quayle


(in reply to juliaoceania)
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RE: Are we becoming a banned society? - 11/10/2006 12:51:42 AM   
MasterKalif


Posts: 648
Joined: 5/24/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Sinergy
I get chastized for pages and pages on another thread for referring to the Simian In Chief as "Monkeyboy" because somebody felt I might be using that term derogatorily to denigrate the Idiot that A Village In Texas Has Misplaced.

Then I get put down because I was insulting monkeys.

Sinergy


LOL Sinergy....shame they don't see it as you do...I understand you, hehe.

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Profile   Post #: 24
RE: Are we becoming a banned society? - 11/10/2006 12:56:08 AM   
MasterKalif


Posts: 648
Joined: 5/24/2004
Status: offline 		I think the US has become a banned society....it doesn't accept new entrants (immigrants) in my opinion....this because if you wish to legally immigrate to this country, you have to be a nuclear scientist, or a hard core doctor, or invest a million dollars in some new business in an economically depressed area and hire 12 people, or get sponsored by a company which is very hard to do even if a person has two Masters degrees.....very closed in my opinion to those with college degrees and some skills lower than a scientist or doctor. Anyways I don't know if that was the intention of the thread, but its my personal opinion.

On the other hand too, now it seems you cannot criticize the government as much as in the past, there are many "don'ts" an dno enough "do's" in my opinion.

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RE: Are we becoming a banned society? - 11/10/2006 1:56:23 AM   
meatcleaver


Posts: 9030
Joined: 3/13/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: WyrdRich

quote:

ORIGINAL: RazorJAK


Well now that the neocon fundies don't rule all three branches anymore,  perhaps we won't be seeing so much of the "banning for your own good" shite laws trying to be passed.



      Nah.  It will just be different shit that gets banned to protect us.  Which is worse, a fundy telling me what I can do in the bedroom, or a vegan telling me what I can have in the kitchen?


Hit the nail on the head. It's an obnoxious trend that goes across the spectrum. It seems to have arisen with single issue politics.

(in reply to WyrdRich)
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RE: Are we becoming a banned society? - 11/10/2006 5:16:04 AM   
ScooterTrash


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From: Indiana
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quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

quote:

ORIGINAL: WyrdRich

quote:

ORIGINAL: RazorJAK


Well now that the neocon fundies don't rule all three branches anymore,  perhaps we won't be seeing so much of the "banning for your own good" shite laws trying to be passed.



     Nah.  It will just be different shit that gets banned to protect us.  Which is worse, a fundy telling me what I can do in the bedroom, or a vegan telling me what I can have in the kitchen?


Hit the nail on the head. It's an obnoxious trend that goes across the spectrum. It seems to have arisen with single issue politics.
That is the part that concerns me....it doesn't matter what is banned and even if the reasoning is to protect the public, at what point did we give up our right to choose and let someone else choose for us (even if it's the majority). I think if it's controversial enough where it appears a vote would be necessary, whether it's transfat or if you should be able to wear pink shoes or not, the decision should be left up to the individual. I'm tired of the Gov't thinking they have to put something out on the table for a vote, to see if I (or you) need protected from it. Maybe I don't want to be protected, maybe, just maybe, people should be allowed to make their own decisions. Wow...what a concept.

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RE: Are we becoming a banned society? - 11/10/2006 7:28:16 AM   
juliaoceania


Posts: 21383
Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
Status: offline 		I think people should make their own decisions too, but informed consent is crucial. For example, how can I consent to putting something into my body like hydrogenated oils unless I know that  the product contains them? By and large people are choosing natural organic foods, and foods without hydrogenated oils and other toxic crap. If market forces work then people will choose other options... but people should know the risks, labels should be on food, people should be allowed the opportunityto reject those choices and eat other things.

Organic food is becoming more and more of an option because people desire it and request it. Because of this market forces make sure that demand is satisfied... so should it be illegal to put poisonous toxins into food that will shorten lives? Well I think it should personally, but as long as they label boxes and I am making my choices to read labels... screw everyone else that is just too lazy to, they can just get their coronary earlier, become a drag on tax payers and insurance companies, and their families... no biggie.

< Message edited by juliaoceania -- 11/10/2006 7:38:14 AM >

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

(in reply to ScooterTrash)
Profile   Post #: 28
RE: Are we becoming a banned society? - 11/10/2006 7:36:04 AM   
thompsonx


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Joined: 10/1/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: ScooterTrash

quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

quote:

ORIGINAL: WyrdRich

quote:

ORIGINAL: RazorJAK


Well now that the neocon fundies don't rule all three branches anymore,  perhaps we won't be seeing so much of the "banning for your own good" shite laws trying to be passed.



    Nah.  It will just be different shit that gets banned to protect us.  Which is worse, a fundy telling me what I can do in the bedroom, or a vegan telling me what I can have in the kitchen?


Hit the nail on the head. It's an obnoxious trend that goes across the spectrum. It seems to have arisen with single issue politics.
That is the part that concerns me....it doesn't matter what is banned and even if the reasoning is to protect the public, at what point did we give up our right to choose and let someone else choose for us (even if it's the majority). I think if it's controversial enough where it appears a vote would be necessary, whether it's transfat or if you should be able to wear pink shoes or not, the decision should be left up to the individual. I'm tired of the Gov't thinking they have to put something out on the table for a vote, to see if I (or you) need protected from it. Maybe I don't want to be protected, maybe, just maybe, people should be allowed to make their own decisions. Wow...what a concept.



[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[

ScooterTrash:
I agree that the govt. seems to take perverse delight in restricting my behaviour over a broad range of activities....and for the most part I disagree with this behaviour.
On the other hand I think it is a good thing to have zoning laws that prevent my next door neighbor from putting a toxic waste depot in his back yard.  Or laws that restrict the  discharge a firearm into the air within city limits...one would think that someone smart enough to know which end the bullet comes out of would have some understanding of gravity.
thompson

(in reply to ScooterTrash)
Profile   Post #: 29
RE: Are we becoming a banned society? - 11/10/2006 7:42:49 AM   
LuckyAlbatross


Posts: 19224
Joined: 10/25/2005
Status: offline 		I don't think much has changed really.  American culture has always taken a repressive stance against things that lead to fun and "out of control" behavior- let's not forget the Prohibition.  Not to mention that whole legacy of legal slavery.

I actually support government legislating and enforcing behavior, to the point of banning it.  Gang violence, rapes, child abuse, firing women if they get pregnant- there's a LOT of things that the government bans that they SHOULD ban.  That, IMO is the role of the government- to build and enforce a legal system which represents the goals of the people.

While in an idealistic society I would be an anarchist, we don't live in an idealistic society.

Do I believe everything that today's and yesterday's government is trying to legislate and enforce is good and right?  Not at all.  But that's the reason we have elections and a supposed democratic process. 

< Message edited by LuckyAlbatross -- 11/10/2006 7:43:24 AM >

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RE: Are we becoming a banned society? - 11/10/2006 8:31:24 AM   
meatcleaver


Posts: 9030
Joined: 3/13/2006
Status: offline 		What makes me laugh about all this banning stuff for our own good, the one thing governments don't act on is banning carbon emissions, the one thing that will not only kill the individual but sooner or later the whole fucking planet!

< Message edited by meatcleaver -- 11/10/2006 8:32:28 AM >

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RE: Are we becoming a banned society? - 11/10/2006 8:38:26 AM   
Lordandmaster


Posts: 10943
Joined: 6/22/2004
Status: offline 		I really don't think you can compare putting trans fats into mass-produced foods to wearing pink shoes.  Would you agree that the government has an interest in preventing corporations from putting, say, known carcinogens into our orange juice?  I'm sure you would.  Well, then how are trans fats any different?  If we're talking about the rights of INDIVIDUALS to make their own choices, I basically agree with you, but many of the initiatives that conservatives like to lump into the same category are aimed at CORPORATIONS.

quote:

ORIGINAL: ScooterTrash

I think if it's controversial enough where it appears a vote would be necessary, whether it's transfat or if you should be able to wear pink shoes or not, the decision should be left up to the individual.

(in reply to ScooterTrash)
Profile   Post #: 32
RE: Are we becoming a banned society? - 11/11/2006 6:48:16 AM   
thompsonx


Posts: 23322
Joined: 10/1/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

What makes me laugh about all this banning stuff for our own good, the one thing governments don't act on is banning carbon emissions, the one thing that will not only kill the individual but sooner or later the whole fucking planet!


meatcleaver:
YUP
thompson

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Profile   Post #: 33
RE: Are we becoming a banned society? - 11/11/2006 7:19:06 AM   
juliaoceania


Posts: 21383
Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
Status: offline
quote:

LordandMaster

I really don't think you can compare putting trans fats into mass-produced foods to wearing pink shoes.  Would you agree that the government has an interest in preventing corporations from putting, say, known carcinogens into our orange juice?  I'm sure you would.  Well, then how are trans fats any different?  If we're talking about the rights of INDIVIDUALS to make their own choices, I basically agree with you, but many of the initiatives that conservatives like to lump into the same category are aimed at CORPORATIONS.


And isn't that the trouble? Corporations being given the rights of individuals, and in some ways more rights?



_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

(in reply to Lordandmaster)
Profile   Post #: 34
RE: Are we becoming a banned society? - 11/11/2006 7:42:18 AM   
Fawne


Posts: 462
Status: offline 		Thank you, ScooterTrash, for this timely but complicated topic. It is something that concerns me because I do see our civil liberites being eroded. (Please don't make me do detailed backup research! ;) hours of work and cleaning the garage is priority today LOL)

It seems that in times of insecurity people try harder to control what they think they can control.
I believe at such times the issues pressed by the public and popular opinion are often misguided or trivial.
The "real" issues may more frightening and often less comprehensible than can be understood. Perhaps the government and media and yes, big business are more concerned with what is best for thier own agenda than the greater good.

So, say for example:  certain "issues" are given high media attention as a distration.   High awareness, even promotion of a -any- disease ( physical, societal) or what have you - more to increase the stock and profit of some pharmacuitical co. - rather than to save lives of those actually suffering. Even a good meaning grass roots effort can get a hook, momentum into the public psyche and changes occur-   often for the best.  Change opens the door to other legally arguable - yet undesireable restriction to many free minded individuals.  Our freedom and personal rights can be nullified - in the name of protection "for our own good".

fawne

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RE: Are we becoming a banned society? - 11/11/2006 8:00:46 AM   
subrob1967


Posts: 4591
Joined: 9/13/2004
Status: offline 		Why lay blame all on the republicans? After all it was the "blue" states that started with smoking bans, and political correctness.

Career politicians are one in the same, regardless of party affiliation, and IMO all need to be thrown out with the bath water.

As for stem cell, same sex marriage & abortion, these are state issues, and WE the people actually have a say in these matters with our votes... There ain't no electoral college here Bubba. If you have a problem with your state's referendum, it's on YOU to change it, or get to out the vote for candidates who support your views.

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RE: Are we becoming a banned society? - 11/11/2006 8:03:41 AM   
thompsonx


Posts: 23322
Joined: 10/1/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Fawne

Thank you, ScooterTrash, for this timely but complicated topic. It is something that concerns me because I do see our civil liberites being eroded. (Please don't make me do detailed backup research! ;) hours of work and cleaning the garage is priority today LOL)

It seems that in times of insecurity people try harder to control what they think they can control.
I believe at such times the issues pressed by the public and popular opinion are often misguided or trivial.
The "real" issues may more frightening and often less comprehensible than can be understood. Perhaps the government and media and yes, big business are more concerned with what is best for thier own agenda than the greater good.

So, say for example:  certain "issues" are given high media attention as a distration.   High awareness, even promotion of a -any- disease ( physical, societal) or what have you - more to increase the stock and profit of some pharmacuitical co. - rather than to save lives of those actually suffering. Even a good meaning grass roots effort can get a hook, momentum into the public psyche and changes occur-   often for the best.  Change opens the door to other legally arguable - yet undesireable restriction to many free minded individuals.  Our freedom and personal rights can be nullified - in the name of protection "for our own good".

fawne



fawne:
I could'nt agree more.
When they passed the helmet law everyone thought the price of helmets would go down because the economies of scale would necessarily reduce the cost of production and distrubution.  What happened is that now that everyone who rides a bike is required to own  one they raised the price.  Oh yes the projected decrease in motorcycle fatalities did not happen.
thompson

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RE: Are we becoming a banned society? - 11/11/2006 8:11:09 AM   
Fawne


Posts: 462
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx
fawne:
I could'nt agree more.
When they passed the helmet law everyone thought the price of helmets would go down because the economies of scale would necessarily reduce the cost of production and distrubution.  What happened is that now that everyone who rides a bike is required to own  one they raised the price.  Oh yes the projected decrease in motorcycle fatalities did not happen.
thompson


Exactly! The helmet law is a perfect example!
 
Thank you, thompsonx

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Profile   Post #: 38
RE: Are we becoming a banned society? - 11/11/2006 8:12:35 AM   
meatcleaver


Posts: 9030
Joined: 3/13/2006
Status: offline 		I don't think this banning stuff has a political bias, I think the root is religious. America has a strong strain of protestantism in its culture and this is the source of the problem. Fortunately for us Europeans most of our most strident protestants emigrated but unfortuantely we still have some. I'm sure in Scandinavia they will soon ban laughing but its not only protestants, in the catholic Latin countries in the south they have their own list of what should be banned. If I was a dictator for a day I would only ban one thing and that is religion. Perhaps then, things will be banned because they are harmful to society as a whole and not to save a person from their own free choices.

< Message edited by meatcleaver -- 11/11/2006 8:13:03 AM >

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Profile   Post #: 39
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