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RE: RANT, a big one ! Feel free to join in. - 11/18/2006 11:27:59 AM   
NorthernGent


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quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent

quote:

ORIGINAL: adaddysgirl

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lordandmaster
Sounds like a bunch of pouty smokers who are sad that they can't smoke ANYWHERE.
 

Nah....sounds more like a bunch of pouty non smokers who are sad because they can't go EVERYWHERE   
 
50 bars in a city and not even 5 of those could be designated smoking bars?  i don't think we're asking to smoke ANYWHERE or EVERYWHERE 
 
It does seem to be as MC described "The argument is that none smokers want laws to ban smoking inside everywhere, places they frequent or not, it is their point of priniciple, their act of faith."

DG


No, it's not as MC described at all. The argument for banning smoking in public places is sound for the following reason.

Democracy and civil liberties are not merely about establishing the right of every individual to pursue their beliefs. This is only half of the story. The other half, and equally important, democratic concept is that individuals' rights to pursue their beliefs is subject to the necessary protection of the rights and freedoms of others.

Thus, if second hand smoke is proven to be harmful to others then individuals (in this case smokers) do not have the right to pursure their beliefs in public places.

It follows that if you are interested in democracy then the defining issue which should dictate a decision on smoking in public places is one of whether or not second hand smoke is harmful. It has nothing to do with petty arguments about the so-called PC brigade.

Democracy is a concept which you either believe in or you don't. You can't turn it on and off like a tap. Those who do turn attempt to on and off like a tap when the cap fits are conservatives not democrats.


Spare us the preaching NG.

Are you rattled because you know it's spot on?

If you were right the government would ban cigarettes. The fact that they are legally on sale means they can be legally consumed.

No they wouldn't. If people want to smoke then it's their call providing they do it in their own home. This discussion is about smoking in public places.

The pub in my parents village are erecting a temporary building that will be heated and made comfortable for their clients. The building being temporary will get round the law introduced by the government. The government was aware that this sort of thing would happen but they did nothing to stop it nor did they make cigarettes illegal. They are merely posturing.


Do you believe in democracy and civil liberties? If so then you do realise that pursuing your "right" to smoke in a public place is undemocratic and anti civil liberties?

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RE: RANT, a big one ! Feel free to join in. - 11/18/2006 12:03:33 PM   
subjected2006


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You people keep forgetting that these smokers are addicted to those cigarrettes.
And it's not like they set out to ruin your day.
Show me where someone has died from being in a smokefilled bar.
And us Republicans are not the ones who pick and choose who has rights and who doesnt..as is made obvious here.
Why can't we all get along?
Because we are all different..duh.
If a place gets too smokey for me I leave.
I will tell you one smell I can not tolerate and that is the "smell' of a law passed
that infringes on my personal rights even more than there are messed with already.
I can't even ride my bike in the summer now with out a friggen helmet..fuck you..
I'm over 18 and I should be able to decide if I want to enjoy the breeze in my hair
enough to risk getting my skull damaged in a fall.
Sorry..but I am more comcerned about my neck getting bent at an odd angle than my head getting crushed.
Come on people doesn't any one understand what is happening to us?
And why are you anti smokers so crazed over this?
So,much anger..good gosh..just light a fat one..hey?
(just kidding of course)



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RE: RANT, a big one ! Feel free to join in. - 11/18/2006 12:30:12 PM   
meatcleaver


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quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent


Do you believe in democracy and civil liberties? If so then you do realise that pursuing your "right" to smoke in a public place is undemocratic and anti civil liberties?


If people really believed in democracy we would be hanging child murderers and shooting muslims so don't play that bollocks on me.

If there was such an issue about smoking then the government would ban cigarettes so why don't they? They are just posturing.

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RE: RANT, a big one ! Feel free to join in. - 11/18/2006 12:44:11 PM   
meatcleaver


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ORIGINAL: Level

It's not cig related, but an example of when enough people get fed up,  the laws often shift, MC.


The law against the burqa or covering the face while being brought in under the auspices of security is really aimed at those communities that refuse to intergrate, in which women are isolated because they can't speak Dutch and the men are macho and too proud to do a job they consider beneath them so they claim social security and steal to suppliment it. I know plenty of them, there is a gang of them that stand on the corner not far from where I live who make pig noises at passing white women. There have also been a lot of abductions and gang rapes and it all leads back to these so called devote muslims. People are sick of them.

However, people are a long way off of being sick of smoking here though we have a fair share of puritans and liberal loonies who never go into a bar but want to ban it for everyone else. I live in a immigrant come tourist area and a larger percentage of the local population smoke than the national average and there are a lot of smoke tourists to. Though I don't smell or get wafts of smoke in my face on the street. I was in my local bar about six weeks ago and a tourist asked me if all the bars were so smokey. I pointed out six bars and cafes to her where she could eat and drink that were none smoking.  She pointed out that those bars were dead and I said yes and so would this one be if it was a none smoking bar too.

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RE: RANT, a big one ! Feel free to join in. - 11/18/2006 12:49:25 PM   
NorthernGent


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ORIGINAL: subjected2006

Show me where someone has died from being in a smokefilled bar.
And us Republicans are not the ones who pick and choose who has rights and who doesnt..as is made obvious here.

When I said conservatives and democrats I didn't mean your two main political parties. I was talking of the concepts of democracy and conservatism.

Because we are all different..duh.
If a place gets too smokey for me I leave.
I will tell you one smell I can not tolerate and that is the "smell' of a law passed
that infringes on my personal rights even more than there are messed with already.

If a "right" impedes the freedoms and rights of others then it is not a right (under the general principle of democracy and civil liberties). Hence, no one has the right to smoke in a public place as it causes harm to others through second hand smoke.
 
Democracy requires laws. Granted, some laws are undemocratic in nature depending on the principles of the ruling Government but this isn't one of them.



 

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RE: RANT, a big one ! Feel free to join in. - 11/18/2006 12:51:42 PM   
NorthernGent


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quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent


Do you believe in democracy and civil liberties? If so then you do realise that pursuing your "right" to smoke in a public place is undemocratic and anti civil liberties?


If people really believed in democracy we would be hanging child murderers and shooting muslims so don't play that bollocks on me.

You need to explain this one because it makes no sense to me.

If there was such an issue about smoking then the government would ban cigarettes so why don't they? They are just posturing.

I answered this one in my last post.



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RE: RANT, a big one ! Feel free to join in. - 11/18/2006 12:59:13 PM   
meatcleaver


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quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent

quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent


Do you believe in democracy and civil liberties? If so then you do realise that pursuing your "right" to smoke in a public place is undemocratic and anti civil liberties?


If people really believed in democracy we would be hanging child murderers and shooting muslims so don't play that bollocks on me.

You need to explain this one because it makes no sense to me.

If there was such an issue about smoking then the government would ban cigarettes so why don't they? They are just posturing.

I answered this one in my last post.




The majority of people in Britain believe in hanging, we have a representative democracy so it depends on Parliament passing a law for hanging to be legal.

As for smoking, if the government passes a law that doesn't specifically prohibit  smoking in public and leaves loop holes so people can circumvent the law, then that is Parliament's problem.

Now which way do you want it. What the majority of the people want or what the laws the people's representatives pass?

If a "right" impedes the freedoms and rights of others then it is not a right (under the general principle of democracy and civil liberties). Hence, no one has the right to smoke in a public place as it causes harm to others through second hand smoke.

According to this, no one has the right to drive a car because it spews gases into the environment that are harmful to others. Not only that they are dangerous in the hands of people, killing over 3,000 people a year and seriously injuring in the region of 16,000 people a year. I hope you are going to campaign against the car with your new found public interest.

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RE: RANT, a big one ! Feel free to join in. - 11/18/2006 1:17:54 PM   
adaddysgirl


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ORIGINAL: NorthernGent

No, it's not as MC described at all. The argument for banning smoking in public places is sound for the following reason.

Democracy and civil liberties are not merely about establishing the right of every individual to pursue their beliefs. This is only half of the story. The other half, and equally important, democratic concept is that individuals' rights to pursue their beliefs is subject to the necessary protection of the rights and freedoms of others.

Thus, if second hand smoke is proven to be harmful to others then individuals (in this case smokers) do not have the right to pursure their beliefs in public places.

It follows that if you are interested in democracy then the defining issue which should dictate a decision on smoking in public places is one of whether or not second hand smoke is harmful. It has nothing to do with petty arguments about the so-called PC brigade.

Democracy is a concept which you either believe in or you don't. You can't turn it on and off like a tap. Those who do turn attempt to on and off like a tap when the cap fits are conservatives not democrats.


The gist of this debate started when another poster asked why shouldn't bar owners be allowed to decide what type of establishment they run....smoking or non smoking.  Now that's not a 'democratic' question?
 
This wasn't to do about smoking in public places.....grocery stores, clothing stores, places of employment, general public buildings, etc.  It was about privately owned bars and restaurants.  Or do people who buy their own businesses also have no say?  Very democratic!
 
But then the conversation progressed to in lieu of the government banning all rights to both these business owners and the smoking population....why not allow some private establishments where both could be appeased?  The non smokers could also maintain their 'rights' by not frequenting these particular establishments.  Now...doesn't that sound democratic?  Or isn't that your idea of democracy?
 
Democracy appears to be a valid postulation as long as it meets your needs.  Let it 'step on your toes' and see what you call it then.
 
Yeh, yeh....i know.  It would still be a democracy 
 
DG

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RE: RANT, a big one ! Feel free to join in. - 11/18/2006 1:19:19 PM   
NorthernGent


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ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

The majority of people in Britain believe in hanging, we have a representative democracy so it depends on Parliament passing a law for hanging to be legal.

This is debatable. Before I agree or disagree with this statement I would want to see the age-range of those polled/surveyed. The reason being, it is a fact that young Britons are far more liberal than older Britons and the age range of people surveyed will skew the outcome.
 
According to this, no one has the right to drive a car because it spews gases into the environment that are harmful to others. Not only that they are dangerous in the hands of people, killing over 3,000 people a year and seriously injuring in the region of 16,000 people a year. I hope you are going to campaign against the car with your new found public interest.

There is a difference. At this point in time, enviroment friendly travel is not widely accessible to us so we're limited in what we can do. On the otherhand, smoking in public places can easily be tackled.
 


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RE: RANT, a big one ! Feel free to join in. - 11/18/2006 1:32:04 PM   
meatcleaver


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quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent

quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

The majority of people in Britain believe in hanging, we have a representative democracy so it depends on Parliament passing a law for hanging to be legal.

This is debatable. Before I agree or disagree with this statement I would want to see the age-range of those polled/surveyed. The reason being, it is a fact that young Britons are far more liberal than older Britons and the age range of people surveyed will skew the outcome.
 
According to this, no one has the right to drive a car because it spews gases into the environment that are harmful to others. Not only that they are dangerous in the hands of people, killing over 3,000 people a year and seriously injuring in the region of 16,000 people a year. I hope you are going to campaign against the car with your new found public interest.

There is a difference. At this point in time, enviroment friendly travel is not widely accessible to us so we're limited in what we can do. On the otherhand, smoking in public places can easily be tackled.
 



Same old meally mouth politics. You know as well as I do that there is a majority of the population are in favour of the death penalty.

Environmentally friendly transport is already there. It is called legs or a bike. The Blair government has admited 60% of all car journeys aren't necessary. Haven't you been watching Ethical man on Newsnight?

Now how about that legislation on cars.


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RE: RANT, a big one ! Feel free to join in. - 11/18/2006 1:34:19 PM   
NorthernGent


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ORIGINAL: adaddysgirl

The gist of this debate started when another poster asked why shouldn't bar owners be allowed to decide what type of establishment they run....smoking or non smoking.  Now that's not a 'democratic' question?

The OP was around smoking being banned in a bar and the owner losing custom as a result. You've lost me with your question.

This wasn't to do about smoking in public places.....grocery stores, clothing stores, places of employment, general public buildings, etc.  It was about privately owned bars and restaurants.  Or do people who buy their own businesses also have no say?  Very democratic!

A bar is a public place. The concept of Democracy is far more than an individual making decisions based on his self-interest as explained in an earlier post.

But then the conversation progressed to in lieu of the government banning all rights to both these business owners and the smoking population....why not allow some private establishments where both could be appeased?  The non smokers could also maintain their 'rights' by not frequenting these particular establishments.  Now...doesn't that sound democratic?  Or isn't that your idea of democracy?

4/5ths of Britons do not smoke so it's fair to say they're firmly in the majority view.

Democracy appears to be a valid postulation as long as it meets your needs.  Let it 'step on your toes' and see what you call it then.

Yeh, yeh....i know.  It would still be a democracy 

My post was concerned with the widely accepted concept of democracy - not my version or another individual's version.  Can you distinguish between an accepted concept and an individual's point of view?
 
DG


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RE: RANT, a big one ! Feel free to join in. - 11/18/2006 1:38:09 PM   
Termyn8or


Posts: 18681
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Status: offline 		I appreciate the attention but you have all missed the point. I really didn't express it all that well, but it was a rant. I said it was a rant and nobody seems to disagree with that.

I don't care what the trend is, I don't care about anything else except the fact that this power can be execised.

I don't care about the health reasons or anything, although they are valid. Yes I smoke and I admit it is not good for you, and neither is second hand smoke. I don't want to debate whether or not you will drop dead from it without an inhaler or even how there is nothing white in the house anymore, it is all brown. That is simply not the issue.

The issue is the issue itself. Let me give an example of a possible issue. A referendum to get on the ballot:

It shall be a first degree misdemeanor in the city to sell or possess any device designed to restrain a human. It shall be a felony to use a restraint device on any human, whether makeshift or manufactured, whether the subject consents or not. The only exception is for law enforcement officers.

No judge shall impose less than the maximum sentence for these offenses, and jury trials are prohibited. There shall be no appeal, and the defendant automatically relinquishes rights to a speedy trial.

What if 51% of the "people" voted for that ?

That is why the founding Fathers built a Republic, not a democracy.

I have to have car insurance because YOUR car is expensive, and doctors are rich.

I have to mow my grass to preserve your property value if you live in the same neighborhood.

I have to pay 30 cents more a pack so you can go look at paintings and sculptures, some of them not worth 30 cents.

I have to not smoke at the pub because you have a condition. What's next ? Mandatory O2 stations ? Oh, you need a smoke free work enviroment ? OK, go work in a foundry, I have.

Oh, you can't work in a foundry if you can't stand smoke, either physically or emotionally. That will have to change. See those $600 playstation 3s going for two grand ? well, if the company that made them was in the US they really would be two grand.

Here's as better one:

Any illicit sex is now a first degree misdemeanor, second offence is a felony.

If you can vote for this, you can vote for that.

Fast food places shall use peanut oil and use fresh oil for every customer. Here comes the $15 small order of fries. But it would help people, understand ? Think of the children.

Florida is a world leader in this shit. That's why I don't want to live there. I heard on the local news "They made it a crime to......" . Really, if something is a real crime it always was. And the feds fuck with them every day about land use, using your tax dollars.

Also what happened in Florida disturbs me. They busted a bunch of old guys playing pinochle for a penny a point for gambling. Like I said, I think I'll pass on living there.

People in general, they,,,,,, seem, to only think of their own rights, not the rights of others. People who are afraid of guns think that nobody should be allowed to have a gun. People who don't smoke pot do very little for pot smokers. Same goes for hard drugs.

Hard drugs are bad for people. Coke, crack, meth, smack, it is all poison. Some people can do it once a year and it never becomes a problem, others get addicted and literally die from it in a number of different ways, most of them unpleasant.

Do I think it sould be illegal ? NO. Kill yourself anyway you want.

My buddy John, a fellow musician of sorts really has a good mind. His idea might work. Smokers and smoke tolerant people would become members of a club. It could get to the point where almost every bar is a private club. Let's say a dollar a year membership. After the cost of printing the cards the bar owner could spend these windfall profits on a pack of cigarettes.

Now we smokers have won, at least at venues that take that path. YOU are now discluded. YOU can't go in there. How does it feel ?

There are problems with the liquor laws in Ohio doing that I know, but if you really want to get quiet just go totally private and forget the liqour license. There is no law against renting or buying property that is zoned commercial and using it for private use.

So just who wins in the end ?

I have been in restaraunts with someone smoking a cigar very closeby and hardly smelled it at all, the reason ? adequate ventilation. You change the air all the time and it goes up.

You used to be able to smoke on buses when the windows were always open. You used to be able to smoke on planes until they figured out they could save a few bucks by decreasing the inflow of fresh air to the passenger cabin(s). You used to be able to smoke in public building back when the windows could be opened.

Seems to me this problem started when they started to bottle us up.

This is not a good trend.

T

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RE: RANT, a big one ! Feel free to join in. - 11/18/2006 1:43:23 PM   
meatcleaver


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ORIGINAL: NorthernGent

4/5ths of Britons do not smoke so it's fair to say they're firmly in the majority view.

Democracy appears to be a valid postulation as long as it meets your needs.  Let it 'step on your toes' and see what you call it then.

Yeh, yeh....i know.  It would still be a democracy 



Only on your terms and that is typical left wing liberal politics and the reason I can't stomach the left.

The left is always banning stuff, more so than the right and they are bad enough.

The majority of the population are against immigration too. Are you for banning that? After all, it is still a democracy.

< Message edited by meatcleaver -- 11/18/2006 1:45:39 PM >

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RE: RANT, a big one ! Feel free to join in. - 11/18/2006 1:45:00 PM   
NorthernGent


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quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent

quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

The majority of people in Britain believe in hanging, we have a representative democracy so it depends on Parliament passing a law for hanging to be legal.

This is debatable. Before I agree or disagree with this statement I would want to see the age-range of those polled/surveyed. The reason being, it is a fact that young Britons are far more liberal than older Britons and the age range of people surveyed will skew the outcome.
 
According to this, no one has the right to drive a car because it spews gases into the environment that are harmful to others. Not only that they are dangerous in the hands of people, killing over 3,000 people a year and seriously injuring in the region of 16,000 people a year. I hope you are going to campaign against the car with your new found public interest.

There is a difference. At this point in time, enviroment friendly travel is not widely accessible to us so we're limited in what we can do. On the otherhand, smoking in public places can easily be tackled.
 



Same old meally mouth politics. You know as well as I do that there is a majority of the population are in favour of the death penalty.

What's up with you tonight? Stick to what is being discussed rather than dramatic lines such as meally mouth politics.
 
It's debatable. Younger Britons are far more liberal than plus 40s.

Environmentally friendly transport is already there. It is called legs or a bike. The Blair government has admited 60% of all car journeys aren't necessary. Haven't you been watching Ethical man on Newsnight?

Now how about that legislation on cars.

What's your point here? I personally would like to see improved legislation on transport in various forms. As well as legislation on business that extends well beyond industry and looks at the likes of supermarkets too. Also, I'd like to see legislation to do something about the fact that we waste more food than any other country in the developed world. All of this indicates our disregard for responsible consumption and I for one want to see it tackled. Most of your posts on this thread have centred around a "if it's good for the goose it's good for the gander" argument. I don't agree with this. Life is about slow, steady improvements and a ban on smoking in bars and the like would be a good start in my eyes. Transport will follow.



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RE: RANT, a big one ! Feel free to join in. - 11/18/2006 1:48:22 PM   
meatcleaver


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ORIGINAL: Termyn8or

I don't care what the trend is, I don't care about anything else except the fact that this power can be execised.



The one thing that has got me wound up is this love some people have for banning stuff. I smoke about three cigars a week, usually one at home and two in the bar at weekends. A complete ban wouldn't bother me but I can't stomach the politics of people who like to ban stuff simply because they can.

Why don';t they campaign to ban cars
fatty food
alcohol
monotonous work that causes mental health problems

They aren't really interested in health, it is the power over other people, the ability to ban stuff whether it affects them or not.

< Message edited by meatcleaver -- 11/18/2006 1:50:23 PM >

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RE: RANT, a big one ! Feel free to join in. - 11/18/2006 1:48:25 PM   
adaddysgirl


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ORIGINAL: subjected2006

Okay.
You people keep forgetting that these smokers are addicted to those cigarrettes.
And it's not like they set out to ruin your day.
Show me where someone has died from being in a smokefilled bar.
And us Republicans are not the ones who pick and choose who has rights and who doesnt..as is made obvious here.
Why can't we all get along?
Because we are all different..duh.
If a place gets too smokey for me I leave.

Well apparently the government doesn't think you are intelligent enough to make that decision on your own.....so just ban smoking in ALL bars then nobody has to make that decision for themselves.

I will tell you one smell I can not tolerate and that is the "smell' of a law passed
that infringes on my personal rights even more than there are messed with already.
I can't even ride my bike in the summer now with out a friggen helmet..fuck you..
I'm over 18 and I should be able to decide if I want to enjoy the breeze in my hair
enough to risk getting my skull damaged in a fall.
Sorry..but I am more comcerned about my neck getting bent at an odd angle than my head getting crushed.

When they first passed the helmet law for motorcyclists, i was much younger and not a motorcycle driver anyway.  But i can recall being appalled to think that responsible adults had no choice on how they wanted to ride their bikes.....and that the government could actually control that decision.
 
And then of course it spread to bicycle riders too.
 
Of course, other laws like that are in place too....how about the law against assisted suicide?  People are denied that option as as well.  Reasonable adults do not have the option to say how they die even in face of prolonged, agonizing, terminal illness....yet at the same time, they can make the choice of 'do not resuscitate'.....or 'take all the tubes out and the oxygen off' as my father did  before he died.
 
The government regulates what they want....period.

Come on people doesn't any one understand what is happening to us?

No, they don't.  This is about taking away pesonal decisions that we as intelligent adults should be able to make ourselves.  The government is on their way to dictating what is good for us and what isn't....and making laws 'on our behalf' and 'for our own good'.   So where does it end?

And why are you anti smokers so crazed over this?
So,much anger..good gosh..just light a fat one..hey?
(just kidding of course)

Sounds good to me 



(in reply to subjected2006)
Profile   Post #: 196
RE: RANT, a big one ! Feel free to join in. - 11/18/2006 1:48:34 PM   
NorthernGent


Posts: 8730
Joined: 7/10/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

The majority of the population are against immigration too. Are you for banning that? After all, it is still a democracy.


A more accurate statement is the majority of the population believe in controlled immigration (rather than they're absolutely against immigration).

_____________________________

I have the courage to be a coward - but not beyond my limits.

Sooner or later, the man who wins is the man who thinks he can.

(in reply to meatcleaver)
Profile   Post #: 197
RE: RANT, a big one ! Feel free to join in. - 11/18/2006 1:51:05 PM   
sissifytoserve


Posts: 1016
Joined: 8/30/2006
Status: offline 		Most are against ILLEGAL immigration.....not legal immigration.

Big Difference.

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A great mind must be androgynous
Samuel Coleridge

The uniting of the feminine and the masculine is the highest form of human development Carl Jung

(in reply to NorthernGent)
Profile   Post #: 198
RE: RANT, a big one ! Feel free to join in. - 11/18/2006 1:54:57 PM   
meatcleaver


Posts: 9030
Joined: 3/13/2006
Status: offline 		The bar owner of the bar I go to has the simple answer to people who don't want smoke in bars. He points to the empty bar across the street. There they can drink in as much clean air as their lungs will inhale. The only reason for the complete ban is the same pettiness and postured radicalism that the fox hunting ban was about.

< Message edited by meatcleaver -- 11/18/2006 1:56:11 PM >

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There are fascists who consider themselves humanitarians, like cannibals on a health kick, eating only vegetarians.

(in reply to NorthernGent)
Profile   Post #: 199
RE: RANT, a big one ! Feel free to join in. - 11/18/2006 2:09:00 PM   
NorthernGent


Posts: 8730
Joined: 7/10/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

The bar owner of the bar I go to has the simple answer to people who don't want smoke in bars. He points to the empty bar across the street. There they can drink in as much clean air as their lungs will inhale. The only reason for the complete ban is the same pettiness and postured radicalism that the fox hunting ban was about.


I think this is an over-simplication and there's been some good posts on this thread that suggest people have spent time thinking about this and it's not a result of pettiness.

The fox hunting ban was far more than you're suggesting. There's a case to be put forward that a fox being chased for miles by dogs and then ripped apart is not on. As I've said on another thread, I personally can't really take the moral high ground because I love meat but I'm sure many who supported the ban could take the moral high ground. I'll be honest here, I was more than happy to see an end to the general toffery that surrounds the whole issue and much of this is due to my political leanings and class background. However, smoking is an altogether different issue because I am in a position to take the moral high ground.

_____________________________

I have the courage to be a coward - but not beyond my limits.

Sooner or later, the man who wins is the man who thinks he can.

(in reply to meatcleaver)
Profile   Post #: 200
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