RE: A Tale of Mr. Badman (Domestic Violence Rhumba) (Full Version)

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selenaMD -> RE: A Tale of Mr. Badman (Domestic Violence Rhumba) (11/15/2006 4:26:05 AM)

We have ended up touching on two very hot topics in this thread, ones that stir up emotion on  both sides of the fence.  Having been through childhood abuse and domestic violence, I have opinions on both topics.

Domestic Violence:
Although there are *legitimate* cases of domestic violence, like any other crime, there are people who are going to cry wolf, be it out of anger, or to get attention.  Those persons clog up our justice system, enabling true abusers to walk free because they don't get their day in court in a timely manner.  There are, sadly, people who egg on another to invoke a violent response to get exactly what they want.  Though, I have to agree with what others have said here, the proper thing to do is to walk away.  Unless someone is begging to get hit in a BDSM relationship, there is never a reason to hit someone because they asked for it.  I'm not sure it makes it "okay" to hit someone cause they have an acid tongue, but I do realize it makes it a heck of a lot harder to stop yourself.  That said, painting each DV incident with the same brush is both short sided and to be blunt, stupid.  As with everything in life it isn't always black and white, and I believe all aspects of the situation need to be looked at on a case by case basis.

Childhood Abuse:

There is never, ever, ever an excuse  to hit a child.  It doesn't matter if they are  unruly, rude, obnoxious, self centred, any other negative trait your little head can come up with.  Abuse does nothing except start a pattern, or cycle of abuse  that stretches from one generation to the next as has been shown in many child abuse cases.  That said, spanking a child, within *reason* to me does not qualify as  abuse, hitting a child with anything *but* your bare hand, then I start questioning the validity of the punishment. 

In both topics people can make judgement calls on the people involved.  The child was a brat and deserved to get hit, the unappreciative litte sh**.  That guy was abused as a child, that is why he hit his wife.  That woman was a mouthy twit, she got what she deserved.  But honestly unless we are inside the situation we can't make a sweeping judgement call, well atleast we can't and claim that we are right.  There are three sides to every story, what he said, what she said, and somewhere in the middle there lies the truth.

selena{MD}
devoted property of  Master Mark.



onlythewindknows -> RE: A Tale of Mr. Badman (Domestic Violence Rhumba) (11/15/2006 5:02:54 AM)

i think my issue is that Tre seems to be using a personal anecdote to create a seperate set of assumptions about who is to blame in a child abuse or domestic violence situation, no better or worse than the set of assumptions he claims to already be in place "by society" whatever the hell that is. it is something like a straw man argument but not exactly.



TreSwank -> RE: A Tale of Mr. Badman (Domestic Violence Rhumba) (11/15/2006 5:53:30 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: onlythewindknows

i think my issue is that Tre seems to be using a personal anecdote to create a seperate set of assumptions about who is to blame in a child abuse or domestic violence situation, no better or worse than the set of assumptions he claims to already be in place "by society" whatever the hell that is. it is something like a straw man argument but not exactly.


Sweetheart........I used a factual personal anecdote to illustrate that men.........even male CHILDREN, will have to run through the gauntlet of a "not so disinterested" justice system the moment that any firebrand of a woman feels the whim to call the police and file a complaint.  I placed a little chunk of my life out there, damn well knowing that some folks were gonna think I was a morally unscrupulous shithead for my actions. 

Now, if I had been a woman who had struck out against my attacker, and posted  on a "domestic violence" thread relating the details in their full "Burning Bed" glory, I would have received all kinds of "You GO girl!!!" accolades, commending me on my bravery........but notice the kind of hostility I was met with immediately (MistressSophia), as if some people are absolutely FLABBERGASTED by the idea that a WOMAN can be guilty of any wrongdoing in her domicile, and assumed Yours Truly, possessing a swinging dick and all, must have been at fault. 

Don't get me wrong........I love women, and it really bothers me to think about all of the pain that this old, rotten world has inflicted on victimized wives and girlfriends........but I felt like I needed to show people that, in quite a few shitty situations, thing aren't always what they seem from the outside world.   Gauge (see post 39) has also witnessed this kind of "messy" justice.............but in most cases, I don't think that the man has someone else to testify in his defense, and will probably get the shaft.



caitlyn -> RE: A Tale of Mr. Badman (Domestic Violence Rhumba) (11/15/2006 5:57:16 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: poplolly
Everyone is so willing to judge Tre.


Very few people here were judging Tre. Most of the comments were general.
 
Welcome to the boards, by the way. [:D]



caitlyn -> RE: A Tale of Mr. Badman (Domestic Violence Rhumba) (11/15/2006 6:22:49 AM)

Don't worry Tre ... the current wave out there is more interest in gender equity feminism, and less in gender superiority feminism. The "Battered Women's Shelter" will eventually become the "Battered Spouse's Shelter." The writing is on the wall. Rape crisis centers now lend assistance to men.
 
I'm sure you can understand how the pendulum swung so far. For a few thousand years, the answer to a battered woman was, "Well, stop making him mad." When faced with that, it's not hard to understand how even gender equity based groups, used whatever expedients would get results ... and the entire issue is compounded because the vast majority of reported cases, are of males, abusing females.
 
The legal system will eventually get some balance on this issue, which is really not a male/female issue at all, but rather a abuser/victim issue. Lets hope it doesn't take as long for this to happen, as it took to get the matter addressed in the first place.



windchymes -> RE: A Tale of Mr. Badman (Domestic Violence Rhumba) (11/15/2006 6:44:55 AM)

I thought about this one all night long before I responded here.  I think judgement IS being passed too quickly on Tre here, who, at the age of only 14 is not expected to have the maturity and sensible decision-making ability of an adult.  We don't even know the situation of WHY he is not being raised by his mother and father, but instead by his grandmother.  And we don't know what Grandma was really like....I'm having a hard time picturing a frail 80-year- old wearing orthopedic shoes and holding an apple pie in one hand and waving a cane in the other.  She could very well have been 40 years old wearing biker leathers (no offense intended to the biker community here, just making a point!) pissed off because she's stuck at home raising "someone else's brat" and took it out on him.  We don't know exactly how much and what kind of physical and mental abuse he might have taken before losing control and fighting back.  A 14-year-old is at the peak of adolescent transition, hormones raging everywhere, and no role model to teach him the "correct" way to react to a situation like this.  Was he supposed to develop this instinctually? 

Not one person in this forum, including myself, has a 100% correct track record of absolutely appropriate behavior in every stressful situation that ever occurs.  No one here has the right to be scolding or chastising someone for their reaction to a sitation that they really do not know 100% of the details and truth about. 

Frankly, based on what I've read in here over time, I think Tre is a pretty intelligent, well-spoken MAN who had a successful military career, knows who he is, and has very much overcome the hardships he had to deal with from a young age.  I'd be proud to have him as my son....or grandson.  Tre, I hope you found some catharsis and a little more healing from sharing your experience.



NeedToUseYou -> RE: A Tale of Mr. Badman (Domestic Violence Rhumba) (11/15/2006 7:11:36 AM)

This is funny, how people can't imagine an evil woman. Believe me some women are. And sometimes normal well adjusted women lose it as well. Just like men.

I'll tell you when I was learning to tie my shoes my mother got aggrevated and proceeded to slap me everytime I messed up. Oh the poor woman slapping a 4 or 5 year old repeatedly. Can't remember exact age obviously. Believe me if I was 14 I'd of knocked the shit out of her in a sec. And this isn't the only occasion either. My sister remembers as well, so it's not my kid brain villifying her in hindsight. So, what's the difference here between a 5 year old being abused by a woman or a 14 year old. None. A minor whether 5 or 14 is at the mercy of his legal guardian unless the abuse results in undeniable abuse. I did just leave though at the earliest opportunity, possible.

In this same house I witnessed men beat my mother to. The funny thing is she always stayed with and pursued the abusive ones longer than the decent ones. She listened to no one. No matter how it affected others, and it did spill over to us in one form or another. Such giving and compassion for her children. whatever.

I also have witnessed women just fucking belittling their husbands to point it made me angry.

So, please, people are equal opportunity abusers. I don't blame him one second as a minor for putting his grandmother in place. The only difference in my situation was once I started to get bigger my mother stopped. As soon as she thought I was big enough to actually hit back. So, I never hit her or pushed her for that matter. The only time I've hurt a woman was by accident in play and not badly by any scale.

But I'm not so quick to leap on the poor woman bandwagon, either. It may well be so that any particular woman was abused, but it could just equally be she was abusing and he snapped back.





onlythewindknows -> RE: A Tale of Mr. Badman (Domestic Violence Rhumba) (11/15/2006 2:42:42 PM)

Y'know i never said women don't do bad stuff.  I actually trust men more than women.
That has nothing to do with anything here.
I am just pointing out that there is a faulty argument here - from a critical thinking standpoint.

The assumption is: "People always believe the woman in DV situations"

The setup is: "I was abused by a woman and no one believed me because I am a guy"

The conclusion is: "Therefore, DV laws as they are implemented are wrong"

I think this is called begging the question...  i might be wrong.

I mean no offense, Tre, really, but you are going to put forward a red-hot item like this, expect to be debated.



TreSwank -> RE: A Tale of Mr. Badman (Domestic Violence Rhumba) (11/15/2006 2:57:22 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: onlythewindknows

Y'know i never said women don't do bad stuff.  I actually trust men more than women.
That has nothing to do with anything here.
I am just pointing out that there is a faulty argument here - from a critical thinking standpoint.

The assumption is: "People always believe the woman in DV situations"

The setup is: "I was abused by a woman and no one believed me because I am a guy"

The conclusion is: "Therefore, DV laws as they are implemented are wrong"

I think this is called begging the question...  i might be wrong.

I mean no offense, Tre, really, but you are going to put forward a red-hot item like this, expect to be debated.


If you'll read back to original grandmother/abuse/arrest narrative, I think you JUST MIGHT realize that the nitty-gritty of the story  was that my grandmother BRUISED HERSELF AND LIED TO THE POLICE in order to teach me a lesson (not that I was abused, although I did bring up that secondary element to further my argument)...........thus being in complete and total concurrence with the original intent of the post (on occasion women may LIE ABOUT, and provoke assaults, just to land a guy's ass in hot water with a woman-biased and sexist justice system.)

Sweetheart, if you really want to debate me, you're going to have to pick up on the RELEVANT content, and not just the sub-plot.  You might be smart, sugarbritches, but you're fixated on certain elements of my D.V. argument which SHOULD make you step back, and take it in as a whole.



onlythewindknows -> RE: A Tale of Mr. Badman (Domestic Violence Rhumba) (11/15/2006 3:12:47 PM)

right but your story is the set up for your argument so it matters



Arpig -> RE: A Tale of Mr. Badman (Domestic Violence Rhumba) (11/15/2006 9:44:15 PM)

Fast reply to nobody in particular...
There is no "Violence against women" problem. The problem is "Violence against people." The gander of the abused and abuser should be irrelevant, but it is not. This is not the ideal, but it is the reality of it, this cannot be denied. The system starts with the assumption that a man accused of domestic violence is likely guilty, and it puts the burden on him to prove his innocence. Again, this is not the ideal, but it is the reality, that is what happens in the real world, in the majority of cases.

An abusive partner should be held to account, by all means, I, and I am sure Tre will agree with me on this, will not dispute that at all. However, the system as it exists is skewed. I know more men who are emotionally abused by their partners than I know women who are physically abused. Does this mean I believe that women who accuse their partners are liars? No!! I personally am inclined to believe that the majority of those women are in fact telling the truth. They are not the issue, the problem is with the women, again, I reemphasize - a minority, who are lying.

Obviously people will always falsely accuse others of all sorts of things, but the law is generally pretty even-handed, and generally it weeds out the false charges. However, in the specific instance of "spousal abuse", the law is administered such that if a man is accused he is assumed to be guilty, and if he is the accuser, he is assumed to be lying. That is wrong. Like any other assault, domestic assault needs to be treated fairly, with the assumption that either side may or may not be telling the truth, and that the accused be given the benefit of the doubt, and that he (or she) be assumed innocent, until the evidence proves otherwise.

Those who sidetracked the thread into a discussion of the rightness or wrongness of Tre's actions have either missed his point entirely, or are deliberatly muddying the water in order to avoid having the actual point discussed.



corsetgirl -> RE: A Tale of Mr. Badman (Domestic Violence Rhumba) (11/17/2006 2:34:15 PM)

Now, if I had been a woman who had struck out against my attacker, and posted  on a "domestic violence" thread relating the details in their full "Burning Bed" glory, I would have received all kinds of "You GO girl!!!" accolades, commending me on my bravery........but notice the kind of hostility I was met with immediately (MistressSophia), as if some people are absolutely FLABBERGASTED by the idea that a WOMAN can be guilty of any wrongdoing in her domicile, and assumed Yours Truly, possessing a swinging dick and all, must have been at fault. 

Don't get me wrong........I love women, and it really bothers me to think about all of the pain that this old, rotten world has inflicted on victimized wives and girlfriends........but I felt like I needed to show people that, in quite a few shitty situations, thing aren't always what they seem from the outside world.   Gauge (see post 39) has also witnessed this kind of "messy" justice.............but in most cases, I don't think that the man has someone else to testify in his defense, and will probably get the shaft.

Tre:

When I was with my ex husband, there was some physical abuse but I also gave as good as I got, which this type of behavior did not make me feel good and this was not how I was raised to handle people in that manner.  I came from a good, supportive home.  However, I  was exposed to someone who would yell, call me names, belittle me, and make fun of my friends. This also escalated to the point where he gave me a little shiner to pulling a gun on me. 

I also understand the court system and how the prosecutors would look at me in contempt thinking I was the typical domestic violence victim who had a co-dependence on her husband.  In my situation, I filed for an injunction, a divorce and I never looked back.

I am more sensitive when I see or hear couples argue very loudly as I suppose this is like a flashback of my own relationship with my ex. 



JerseyKrissi72 -> RE: A Tale of Mr. Badman (Domestic Violence Rhumba) (11/17/2006 2:58:18 PM)

being in an abusive relationship has made me a stronger woman....plain and simple.



RazorJAK -> RE: A Tale of Mr. Badman (Domestic Violence Rhumba) (11/17/2006 10:35:45 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: MistressSophia

Poster boy for battered MEN, I loved your stories. Maybe you could point out. Where the female raised her hands? Women fight with their minds. ok at times with their mouth. "men" fight with their hands.. There's your big difference between jail and no jail. And by the way only cowards hit women or children!


A woman fights with her mouth and mind?  You've obviously never been attacked by a woman.  Sure males tend to be physically stronger.  But they also are usually satisfied with punching.  A female when attacking will generally try to maim,  mutilate or perminently damage someone.  She is also more likely to draw a weapon than a male. 

Where do I get this information?  Over a decade of being a bouncer in various nightclubs and workling security in various casinos.

Call me a coward if you want.  But a psychotic female who tries to claw my eyes out when I'm trying to break up a fight is getting put down fast.  Full stop.  A drunk male is a whole helluva lot easier to talk out of a fight than an enraged female (whether drunk or sober).




LadyFrancesca -> RE: A Tale of Mr. Badman (Domestic Violence Rhumba) (11/17/2006 11:01:47 PM)

These are just my opinions: 
1. I agree that the justice system needs to be blind when it come to the
   gender of the complaining witness.
2. I agree that women can do totally awful things.
3. I agree that children should be protected under all circumstances.
4. I agree that Tre's grandmother got away with an atrocity.
5. I agree that no matter how much one is provoked, it never, ever
    justifies physically attacking another person.



MagiksSlave -> RE: A Tale of Mr. Badman (Domestic Violence Rhumba) (11/18/2006 12:24:40 AM)

OK

as much as I hate to do this part of me has to agree with SOME of what tre has said.. though I do have to say his posts have explained a lot to me about him!!

Women fight tooth and nail for equal rights.. well with privilage should come responsability why is it that we only seek the perks like voteing and "male" status jobs but you dont hear woman fighting to be part of the draft (should it ever be re instated) or to fight on the front lines, you dont see protesters with picket sighns seeking equal prosictution under law or equal treatment when it comes to battery and such, of course you wont see that but if woman want eqaul rights shouldnt that all come with it??

Tre was in a VERY bad situation and it left him jaded in how he sees the world and yes it even effects his views and how he posts here!! So cut the kid some slack!! I know first hand about abusive home and I wish to G-d I could have had enough curage to do what he did to his abuser to mine but unlike him I aloud myself to remain the victom.

While I dont agree with what he says about provokeing hitting and there for the person who gets hit is bad and respionsable for beeing hit because i think physical violance aimed at any one by any one is bad form, I do see where he is comeing from and his logic makes sence to me..

Arpig what you say.. well it sucks and we as a sociaty should be doing something about it, someone needs to protect inosent people because the fasly accused then become the victims and the acusers malishouse perpitrators reading that made me feel angry that we in America can let thigns like that go on.

MistressSophia BACK OFF OF THE KID you are completly out of line!!!!

Magik's slave



ohbiguy32 -> RE: A Tale of Mr. Badman (Domestic Violence Rhumba) (11/18/2006 5:09:33 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: TreSwank

I think that domestic violence needs to be viewed more on a case-by-case basis, rather than the immediate assumption being:  THIS WIFE-ABUSING RUFFIAN IS A DOWNRIGHT MISCREANT!!!!  TO JAIL WE GO, SCUMBAG!!!!
 
It's hard to believe that candystripper used the defense that "women aren't as strong as men."  Does this mean that physically frail men should be given trash-talking rights with full impunity, because they lack the girth and stature of muscle-bound dudes?

Of course, common sense would lead one to the conclusion that ALL women don't provoke their attacks.......but I'll bet that enough gals egg on their men to commit these acts to cause a change in the way that society views the domestic violence monster.


Let me relate a true story.

The law in my state requires that the man be removed from the home for at least 24 hours if the police are dispatched on a domestic violence call.  Note that it specifies MAN.

True story:  man comes home to find wife and male neighbor passed out drunk on the living room couch.  He takes the clothing of both parties and places it on the male neighbors back patio in front of the sliding glass door.  He then retrieves the neighbors wife.  When returnining home the female neighbor chases her husband home neked.  The original wife instinctively runs after them and is locked out of the house.

Guess who went to jail.  And not a hand raised to anyone.  I am sorry folks,  but,  this is just wrong.  The police need to be able to use some common sense in these situations.  They should not have their hands tied by insane laws that do not take reality or facts into account



onlythewindknows -> RE: A Tale of Mr. Badman (Domestic Violence Rhumba) (11/18/2006 6:26:03 AM)

I am thinking that any argument along the lines of "this or that is society's fault" (laws, assumptions etc.) is irrelevant.

When there is a sociopathic or near-sociopathic person in a household, it skews the entire dynamic of the household so that everyone eventually turns to violence, regressive behavior, deception, lies and/or self-destruction.  AND a person of this type is the least likely to receive the blame from either their inner circle or the outside world because they are the masters of manipulation, intimidation, smoke screens, turning the blame around and appearing sweet as pie the whole time.

It IS hard to know who is the victim and who is the perp after a few years of this.

The legal system makes a feeble attempt (with popular perception of "cause" or "blame" swinging around generation to generation) to keep such abberent behavior under control - but how can it when the truth is completely shrouded?

Each person coming out of a situation like this has to OWN what they might have done that also added to the negative dynamic as well as accept that they have, in fact, been made a victim, in order to begin to take control of it.



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