RE: Redo You - Gender as personal choice

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trannysub007 -> RE: Redo You - Gender as personal choice (11/15/2006 9:32:01 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: MasterKalif quote: ORIGINAL: trannysub007 MasterKalif - Biological gender is assigned a couple days/weeks after conception. Gender identity is assigned at conception. If there is not enough of the identifying hormone available when the secondary sex cells are differentiating, or too much of the non-identifying hormone, the biological gender will not be the same as the identifying gender. This person will be gender dysphoric, or transsexual/transgendered, and very possibly live many years feeling depressed, suicidal, and alone. It's not a personal choice, any more than sexual orientation is. If you don't live it, don't judge it. You only present yourself as ignorant, stupid or transphobic. Three things most intelligent people do not want to be. trannysub007.....to me gender and sex are the same....while I understand what you are saying, I don't see where I seem "judging" in my previous message/statement. I do not think I am ignorant, stupid, or transphobic for having the mild opinion I professed before....if you can't handle a differing opinion, then I don't see why you want to post here....what you are doing is silly childish labelling on a perceive "attack" or on a perceived idea that I am "judging". As for your definition of "intelligent" I simply do not care, as it is something very relative and subjective to each individual. Rather than personal name calling, perhaps you could explain to us from your perspective as why you agree or disagree with the original statement. LuckyAlbatross...I disagree with your statement, how can you "choose" your gender? If you are born a man, you are a man, and if you are born a woman, you are a woman...while some may prefer a sex change and that would fall under a "personal choice" (and no doubt it is), this does not mean the people that underwent those sex change operations are now biologically their opposites. No doubt it is a personal choice, that's what you posted. Have you made a choice about your gender? Probably not. i envy your non-issues about being born in the body you have, and my apologies for replying in such an aggressive way. i just cannot stand when people who have no idea at all about gender issues (because they have no gender issues) make statements they seem so sure about. With all due respect, you have no fucking clue, and you are damned lucky you don't. Seriously, this and the other post are not meant to be attacks. i tried for 12 years to convince my parents i was a boy - from age 4 to age 16. They never believed me. Who would know better than i what i was anyway? Then for 28 years i tried to be female, and lived with depression, heartache and self-hate. It's not just some interesting topic to joke about, though some idiots will do it anyway. Oh well. Enjoy the holiday next week! david

MistressTruth -> RE: Redo You - Gender as personal choice (11/15/2006 9:42:22 PM)
They're allowing people to change their legal sex--which makes no sense at all! And why does it make no sense? For instance, a female-to-male transsexual who looks exactly like any other man due to long-term hormonal alterations who applies for a job has a huge chance of being rejected if their legal information says that they're a female because of transphobic attitudes. Point blank. It makes a ton of sense to me. Also, the quote taken from gay.com's article about the matter does not show the criteria needed in order to make the legal gender change on the birth certificate. Here is the criteria, as quoted from the New York Times: Under the rule being considered by the city’s Board of Health, which is likely to be adopted soon, people born in the city would be able to change the documented sex on their birth certificates by providing affidavits from a doctor and a mental health professional laying out why their patients should be considered members of the opposite sex, and asserting that their proposed change would be permanent. Applicants would have to have changed their name and shown that they had lived in their adopted gender for at least two years, but there would be no explicit medical requirements. The link to the NY Times article, which by the way I consider to be a far more reputable source than gay.com: http://www.nytimes.com/2006/11/07/nyregion/07gender.html?ei=5090&en=2586a6f49b530f49&ex=1320555600&adxnnl=1&partner=rssuserland&emc=rss&pagewanted=print&adxnnlx=1162905201-zMOfzICJ1UGGh5CucpyUkA

trannysub007 -> RE: Redo You - Gender as personal choice (11/15/2006 9:43:49 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Arpig trannysub...the words are synonyms. They mean exactly the same thing in the context of human sexuality. Gender Assignment - same as biological gender or 'sex'. - same as sexual assignment Gender Identity - how an individual sees him/herself - same as sexual identity Gender Presentation - how others see him/her - same as sexual presentation. You do not have 3 different definitions of gender, what you have is three different uses of the word, and in each case the word gender means sex in the sense of male or female. Therefore, while the phrase Gender Identity means how a person sees himself or herself, the word gender in that phrase means the same thing as sex. Assignment, identity and presentation are three words with different meanings. Therefore, each of the other terms has a different meaning. As far as sex and gender having the same meaning, i do not agree. my gender identity is male, my sexual identity is gay. Gender assignment and biological sex are close enough to be the same, but sex and gender are still not the same in any other context. <edited to add> Gender presentation is how i present my gender identity. Sexual presentation is whether or not i look like a whore whilst doing it.

trannysub007 -> RE: Redo You - Gender as personal choice (11/15/2006 9:55:47 PM)
[:D]Yay, finally made it to kinky!!![:D]

Arpig -> RE: Redo You - Gender as personal choice (11/15/2006 11:20:58 PM)
quote: As far as sex and gender having the same meaning, i do not agree. It is a free country, and you have every right to be wrong. And you are excercising that right in this case. The meaning of the word "gender" is not something mutable, it has a specific meaning, and that meaning is the same as "sex" in the biological sense. What is happening here is a case of taking a phrase that has one meaning, and assigning that meaning to one of the words in that phrase. A person's gender is male or female, those are the only possibilities when it comes to gender. One's gender identity may be any number of things, but one's gender is one of those two possibilities, and it is genetically determined. End of story.

meatcleaver -> RE: Redo You - Gender as personal choice (11/15/2006 11:35:30 PM)
So 'gender' is the outward display of ones sexuality? This is just corruption of the English language. No wonder American English is diverging from other forms of English. This sort of mutation of language where well defined words become all things to all people just gets in the way of good communication.

LotusSong -> RE: Redo You - Gender as personal choice (11/16/2006 5:12:49 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth quote: In a momentous move, New York City is about to revolutionize its approach to gender by "separating anatomy from what it means to be a man or a woman," according to the New York Times. Gender, essentially, will become personal choice as New York's Board of Health will allow people to alter the sex on their birth certificate even if they have not had sex-reassignment surgery. Source: http://www.gay.com/news/election/article.html?2006/11/08/3 How GREAT is this! Think of the opportunities this legislation provides as precedent. All white rappers from New York can now go and change their birth certificates to identify themselves as black. Any black person believing his identification as black on an job application is being used against him can change himself to white. White middle aged men, can redeclare themselves Hispanic or female to qualify for government minority programs and business grants. um.. since when is Gender a Race? quote: The opportunity to blame how miserable you are due to a happenstance of birth will be eliminated. How you feel is how you are; factual, reality based, visual evidence be damned! No longer will a person's birth records hold them back from accomplishing anything. What a great day! Ah to be white and male and entitled... quote: It's only starting in New York City, but an idea as great is bound to grow like a California wild fire during a Santa Ana. When I have the opportunity I'm redoing myself as female and coming out of the closet as a strict butch lesbian Domme seeking monetary tribute. I better go start working on my new profile... I don't think you could handle the awsome responsibility :)

Arpig -> RE: Redo You - Gender as personal choice (11/16/2006 10:43:51 AM)
quote: Ah to be white and male and entitled... Hey Lotus, I'm white, and I'm male (at least my birth certificate says so[;)]), so what am i entitled to?

meatcleaver -> RE: Redo You - Gender as personal choice (11/16/2006 10:45:48 AM)
Ear ache from a raving fallopian?

Mercnbeth -> RE: Redo You - Gender as personal choice (11/16/2006 11:11:42 AM)
quote: um.. since when is Gender a Race? If there is the ability to change one, why not all? Why should people be limited by a quirk of birth in regard to race if sexual Id can be amended? Or should we be selective in our access to 'freedom of choice'? quote: I don't think you could handle the awsome responsibility :) I do have enough "awesome" responsibilities. But it's good to know that I'd have that right to try. Equality of opportunity makes us all equal. Unless you believe in the prejudicial policies of AA making some people 'more equal'. quote: Arpig: Hey Lotus, I'm white, and I'm male (at least my birth certificate says so[;)]), so what am i entitled to? We are entitled to being the brunt of every sitcom joke. We are entitled to play the ignorant dope in every commercial. Observe that whenever a fool is needed, a white male fills the role 99% of the time. Unless of course the entire cast is of one race, then the fool defaults to being the male cast member. Watch, and point out where that is not the case?

NeedToUseYou -> RE: Redo You - Gender as personal choice (11/16/2006 11:15:08 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Arpig quote: Ah to be white and male and entitled... Hey Lotus, I'm white, and I'm male (at least my birth certificate says so[;)]), so what am i entitled to? What I have entitlements? Oh yeah, I'm entitled to pay taxes and get nothing for it. I think that is the entitlement she is speaking of.

LotusSong -> RE: Redo You - Gender as personal choice (11/16/2006 11:54:34 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth quote: um.. since when is Gender a Race? *quote:* If there is the ability to change one, why not all? Why should people be limited by a quirk of birth in regard to race if sexual Id can be amended? Or should we be selective in our access to 'freedom of choice'? Ahh I see :) Now that sure would work for Michael Jackson..wouldn't it! quote: I don't think you could handle the awsome responsibility :) *quote:* I do have enough "awesome" responsibilities. But it's good to know that I'd have that right to try. Equality of opportunity makes us all equal. Unless you believe in the prejudicial policies of AA making some people 'more equal'. It's not that. The Stiletto heels and corsets are hell!! LOL! quote: Arpig: Hey Lotus, I'm white, and I'm male (at least my birth certificate says so[;)]), so what am i entitled to? We are entitled to being the brunt of every sitcom joke. We are entitled to play the ignorant dope in every commercial. Observe that whenever a fool is needed, a white male fills the role 99% of the time. Unless of course the entire cast is of one race, then the fool defaults to being the male cast member. Watch, and point out where that is not the case? quote: and entitled to be paid 20% more for doing the same job a woman is doing on the same sitcom..

Arpig -> RE: Redo You - Gender as personal choice (11/16/2006 12:02:30 PM)
quote: and entitled to be paid 20% more for doing the same job a woman is doing on the same sitcom.. Fuck!! I'd do a sitcom job for 80% less than what the woman is getting...

LotusSong -> RE: Redo You - Gender as personal choice (11/16/2006 1:04:34 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Arpig quote: and entitled to be paid 20% more for doing the same job a woman is doing on the same sitcom.. Fuck!! I'd do a sitcom job for 80% less than what the woman is getting... The point is..you would not HAVE to :)

orfunboi -> RE: Redo You - Gender as personal choice (11/16/2006 3:32:18 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: trannysub007 [:D]Yay, finally made it to kinky!!![:D] Congratulations [sm=banana.gif][sm=banana.gif]

Arpig -> RE: Redo You - Gender as personal choice (11/16/2006 5:12:33 PM)
quote: The point is..you would not HAVE to :) That's a lovely thought, but in my experience completely unfounded. I have never held a job where I was paid any more than a female with equal seniority. It just has never happened, and I don't think it happens at all in the vast majority of industries and pay scales. It may apply in some very high-paying positions, but most people don't work in those high-paying positions. Most of us have grunt jobs, and there, the pay is the same regardless of gender.

trannysub007 -> RE: Redo You - Gender as personal choice (11/16/2006 9:13:15 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Arpig quote: As far as sex and gender having the same meaning, i do not agree. It is a free country, and you have every right to be wrong. And you are excercising that right in this case. The meaning of the word "gender" is not something mutable, it has a specific meaning, and that meaning is the same as "sex" in the biological sense. What is happening here is a case of taking a phrase that has one meaning, and assigning that meaning to one of the words in that phrase. A person's gender is male or female, those are the only possibilities when it comes to gender. One's gender identity may be any number of things, but one's gender is one of those two possibilities, and it is genetically determined. End of story. The part in bold i agree with; i even said that in my first post with the three definitions. As far as the rest, You too have the right to be wrong. Biological gender is hormonally determined, not genetically. Gender identity is spiritually determined. Enjoy Your holiday.

Arpig -> RE: Redo You - Gender as personal choice (11/16/2006 10:21:23 PM)
Gads, you still don't get it do you....anyway, have yourself a nice life on your werd little planet where words mean whatever you want them to

LadyEllen -> RE: Redo You - Gender as personal choice (11/17/2006 8:06:10 AM)
Its amazing. All that I have learned from psychologists about the differing meanings of gender and sex is wrong! Would you believe it, even the senior psychologist at the Charing Cross Hospital Gender Identity Clinic in London, who incidentally is from New York and worked as a young man with no less than Harry Benjamin, the founding pioneer in diagnosis and treatment of gender identity disorders whose work is still the basis for such diagnosis and treatment, is working with entirely the wrong information!? So, gender = sex. Outstanding. So presumably then, those born intersex are also intergender? A word I've never come across, but I live and learn. So, what does this make me, I wonder? I look like a girl (I've seen a lot uglier real women!), talk like a girl, move, think and act like a girl - I'm even told I smell and taste like a girl (dont ask). I go through life being taken for a girl, even the passport checkers at the airport in these times of the axis of evil, dont blink an eye at me. Yet I have one too many Y chromosomes (and one is too many for me!) with XY. Am I then a guy, or what? Or could it be that whilst my sex is male, my gender is female, or am I forever doomed to be male, whatever I do, and might as well go buy some ties and start spitting, farting, belching and swearing a lot? Confused of the UK E

Arpig -> RE: Redo You - Gender as personal choice (11/17/2006 8:33:32 AM)
You are male. your sex is male, your gender is male. Your gender identity (note the two words together) may be female, and you are free to live your life as a female, to have surgery to modify your body's external appearance to match what you are in your mind, but biologically your gender is male. Mentally, emotionally, etc. your gender may not be male, but that doesn't change the meaning of the words.

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