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RE: Psychopathia Sexualis - 11/20/2006 5:19:55 AM

LadyEllen

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From: Stourport-England
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LoD - yes, I agree my example is from a UK instance with the peculiarities of the UK system, (courts and gaols overflowing, get 'em in and out as quick as possible).

My point really is, that the paedos are sick, rather than criminal. Of course their acts are criminal as far as society is concerned, but whilst a thief knows he does wrong and accepts punishment as an occupational hazard, a paedo really doesnt understand he does wrong, and incarceration only serves to put him with others of his kind - it does not punish (as he doesnt understand he should be punished) and it does not deter him from repeating what is, to him, a natural thing to do.

Paedos have broken minds - and no amount of punishment or counselling will fix them. They have to be treated as criminally insane, and incarcerated as such. Not as punishment, not as deterrence, not as reform, but purely as protection for society. We do the same with criminally dangerous psychotics et al, so why not with paedos? The answer is because we dont treat it for what it is.

E

_____________________________

In a test against the leading brand, 9 out of 10 participants couldnt tell the difference. Dumbasses.

(in reply to LordODiscipline)

Post #: 21

RE: Psychopathia Sexualis - 11/20/2006 5:47:45 AM

LordODiscipline

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A couple of things:

1. Someone can be 'sick' and be a criminal
2. Paedophilia is an intense compulsion - not a delusional condition.

They KNOW what they are doing is wrong - they UNDERSTAND that there are consequences (to the victim and to themselves), they UNDERSTAND that they ought to go somewhere else when the urge hits them - they CHOOSE not to. (large case words for minor emphasis only)

As they understand that what is occurring is wrong (with the exception of those who join groups like NAMBLA and start spewing a political philosophy which is adopted rather than induced) - they are legally 'sane' - and, therefore (under the court system of this country, anyway - and, I had thought GB as well) they can and do stand trial (as a generalization).

They are criminals; but, they meet the definition of being sane by being self aware, cognizant of their actions and the ramifications, capable of telling "right" from "wrong" but not capable or willing to "do the right thing".

Notice I did not say "incapable" - that is a poignant distinction in these instances - as there is a capability... however, they choose to act on the desire rather than societies edict.

~J

quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyEllen

LoD - yes, I agree my example is from a UK instance with the peculiarities of the UK system, (courts and gaols overflowing, get 'em in and out as quick as possible).

My point really is, that the paedos are sick, rather than criminal. Of course their acts are criminal as far as society is concerned, but whilst a thief knows he does wrong and accepts punishment as an occupational hazard, a paedo really doesnt understand he does wrong, and incarceration only serves to put him with others of his kind - it does not punish (as he doesnt understand he should be punished) and it does not deter him from repeating what is, to him, a natural thing to do.

Paedos have broken minds - and no amount of punishment or counselling will fix them. They have to be treated as criminally insane, and incarcerated as such. Not as punishment, not as deterrence, not as reform, but purely as protection for society. We do the same with criminally dangerous psychotics et al, so why not with paedos? The answer is because we dont treat it for what it is.

E

_____________________________

"Anyone who thinks they're important is usually just a pompous moron who can't deal with his or her own pathetic insignificance and the fact that what they do is meaningless and inconsequential."
William Thomas

(in reply to LadyEllen)

Post #: 22

RE: Psychopathia Sexualis - 11/20/2006 5:54:08 AM

LordODiscipline

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By the way -

The reason they are not treated as "criminally insane" and dropped for indefinitve incarceration into a psychiatric institution is for the same reason which is mentioned above -

Since these people meet the legal defintion of "sane" to stand trial - they cannot be sent to an institution like that as this action would violate the US Constitution's guarantee against 'cruel and unusual punishment' (it has been tried for paedophiles and for others); and (in fact), there are appeals to this utilizing the "A danger to society" laws established for the incarceration of medically contageous peoples (The [il]logic goes: They abuse children who are X% more likely to be abusers themselves once they get older - therefore spreading the 'disease').

It won't float however, as it these attempts are been incapable of getting to the place it needs to be (Federal Appeals Court) in order to get approvals that would make the laws currently in place change-able.

~J

< Message edited by LordODiscipline -- 11/20/2006 5:56:40 AM >

_____________________________

"Anyone who thinks they're important is usually just a pompous moron who can't deal with his or her own pathetic insignificance and the fact that what they do is meaningless and inconsequential."
William Thomas

(in reply to LordODiscipline)

Post #: 23

RE: Psychopathia Sexualis - 11/20/2006 5:56:48 AM

LadyEllen

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Joined: 6/30/2006
From: Stourport-England
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And if the particular brand of sexual intercourse with a person of the sex and orientation you prefer as partners, were banned by law tomorrow, you would choose to obey, yes?

The sex drive is unlike any other desire - it is a compulsion, and even if I accept the definitions you give, my point stands because if we can acknowledge our own more normal sex drives as being compelling, then how much more so to one who has an intense compulsion, which is by its nature eventually overwhelming and irresistible, and abnormal?

Dont get me wrong. I'm not defending paedos at all. I'd just prefer them to be treated in a different way than at present, which acknowledges that they cannot be reformed, and thus affords more adequate protection to society than the current revolving prison door situation. For that to happen, their psychology must be regarded, rather than their crimes.

E

_____________________________

In a test against the leading brand, 9 out of 10 participants couldnt tell the difference. Dumbasses.

(in reply to LordODiscipline)

Post #: 24

RE: Psychopathia Sexualis - 11/20/2006 6:05:35 AM

LordODiscipline

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Joined: 6/28/2004
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From a legalistic and moral standpoint this argument has been tried and has failed (and, rightfully so).

A society has no greater perogative than to protect their children from harm.

This imperitive makes hypocrits of us all - but, more substantially, it is hte basis for hte laws which determine that children are not "in their right mind" until they reach (an arbitrary) age of majority - therefore they cannot make an informed decision (consent) to the actions which would take place in such an instance.

Any sexual intercourse/action that "I" would choose to engage in would be done with someone who was mentally competent... and, therefore would be morally (and, mostly) legally allowable under the laws that exist.

"Cumpulsions" are not "requirements"... and, that tact is incorrect from a logical, moral, and legal perspective.

As mentioned, the American legal system has looked at the psychiatric studys conducted oin paedophiliac recidivism and the "restudys" and determined that these people are not curable, therefore it is not incumbent on the people of this country to foot a bill which would be fruitless in the area of "curing" these particular convicts.

Cure or punish - the only two options of the resultants of the criminal justice system... in the one instance it is determined to be impossible over and over again - in the other, it is not possible to leave them to rot in a jail (or, a psychiatric institution) - as the very laws that prevent such an action are the ones that protect all citizens....

"So you see, Yossarian - that is Catch-22"

And, they get out - and, they do it again.

~J

quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyEllen

And if the particular brand of sexual intercourse with a person of the sex and orientation you prefer as partners, were banned by law tomorrow, you would choose to obey, yes?

The sex drive is unlike any other desire - it is a compulsion, and even if I accept the definitions you give, my point stands because if we can acknowledge our own more normal sex drives as being compelling, then how much more so to one who has an intense compulsion, which is by its nature eventually overwhelming and irresistible, and abnormal?

Dont get me wrong. I'm not defending paedos at all. I'd just prefer them to be treated in a different way than at present, which acknowledges that they cannot be reformed, and thus affords more adequate protection to society than the current revolving prison door situation. For that to happen, their psychology must be regarded, rather than their crimes.

E

< Message edited by LordODiscipline -- 11/20/2006 6:08:41 AM >

_____________________________

"Anyone who thinks they're important is usually just a pompous moron who can't deal with his or her own pathetic insignificance and the fact that what they do is meaningless and inconsequential."
William Thomas

(in reply to LadyEllen)

Post #: 25

RE: Psychopathia Sexualis - 11/20/2006 6:12:08 AM

meatcleaver

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Joined: 3/13/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyEllen

My point really is, that the paedos are sick, rather than criminal.

Both sick (as in mental illness) and criminal, are both culturally defined terms and not conditions that objectively exist.

There is an Amazonian tribe where a father ejaculates into the sons mouth over a period of time in belief that the son will pass on the family seed. This has a cultural context and doesn't cause psychological harm to the son. Yet in our society it would be seen as abuse because the same act would be culturally defined in a completely different context.

The same with criminal behaviour. The LibDems want to repeal some criminal laws that don't work because they neither change behaviour or net the appropriate criminals. This will reduce criminality as defined by society but it won't change behaviour.

It all depends what society wants to allow or prohibit, how something is defined.

_____________________________

There are fascists who consider themselves humanitarians, like cannibals on a health kick, eating only vegetarians.

(in reply to LadyEllen)

Post #: 26

RE: Psychopathia Sexualis - 11/20/2006 6:22:48 AM

LadyEllen

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So, we should allow our children to be at risk from these people, because its too difficult to formulate an amendment which enables them to be dealt with in such a way that our children are protected?

We should also consider then, the rights of the paedo to not be attacked and maimed/killed for his proclivities. The danger of this is very real in the UK - viz the Portsmouth housing estate incident. I can tell you now, that if someone living in my neighbourhood was thought to be a paedophile, their life expectancy would be short to nil - and this area is the sort of place they'd be sent to as well; we have all the best people here.

So now we have two reasons to segregate the paedos - to protect us from them and to protect them from us. It can be an either/or, but whichever way, they are about as welcome in our communities as a rabid dog.

Lock them away, to provide for their own rights.

E

_____________________________

In a test against the leading brand, 9 out of 10 participants couldnt tell the difference. Dumbasses.

(in reply to meatcleaver)

Post #: 27

RE: Psychopathia Sexualis - 11/20/2006 6:30:24 AM

meatcleaver

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The people who attack paedophiles or anyone else are questionable in the extreme. Didn't you hear about the paediatrician who was attacked because a lynch mob mistook paediatrician for paedophile? There are ways to protect children but like all things in life, if you don't want to lock people up for their protection, protection can't be 100%.

_____________________________

There are fascists who consider themselves humanitarians, like cannibals on a health kick, eating only vegetarians.

(in reply to LadyEllen)

Post #: 28

RE: Psychopathia Sexualis - 11/20/2006 6:34:06 AM

PrimitiveLogic

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Joined: 4/25/2006
From: Md.
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As I have stated in prior posts; I was a therapist with sex offenders for 8 years...85% of whom were child molesters. The reason for the preponderance of molesters was their lawyers got them out of prison to be 'evaluated' and get 'treatement'. My view of it was the only way to avoid being raped and murdered in prison as child molesters are seen as the lowest form of inmate...meaning there it wasn't an apporpriate macho crime.
Over the 8 years I was there, we "imported" 125 or so sex offenders to Baltimore, had them go through the 21 day program (length of stay issues you know) then have them be out on the street and come to group 'therapy' once a week. Needless to say our sex crime statisitcs soared.
The Nambla etc devotees clung to the fantasy that the more we chant how right and true this is; maye we can convince authorities that maybe it is ok after all. At the least they bring more and more into the flock.; and numbers equal power. The preponderance of age innapropriate pronography does influence people to think about it....then far too many let it become their fetish/obsession/desire/need...call it what you will. Some eventually act on it. Fathers who put hidden cams in daughters bathrooms and share the film/a father who joined a babysitting rape ring because rather than turn them in when he found out..he got turned on by the concept (the cheerleader looking girl got the job...drugged the kids, then let the rest of the teens in to rape them while drugged.)
So making a parallel to our world here...once something finds a home in your heart mind and soul...and nothing can quite replace it once you feel you have found true meaning...it is not so different from the feelings of child molesters..needs, triggers and satisfactions;reciprocal hungers and guilts, shame humiliation, inner struggles...it lives there in varying intensity. It's just that theirs is not safe, not sane(legal) and clearly not consensual. Regardless of how a molester phrases his actions; it is still obsessional, predatory, serial, and damaging. The bottom line is it is against the law...do the crime, do the entire time. I advocate euthanasia...sex offenses are a terminal illness...they kill the victims sense of trust, innocence, and chance of a functional intimacy as an adult.
It's one thing to think about consequences when it is someone elses child...what if it was yours? My daughter was raped as a freshman by seniors in high school who prey on naivety and use drugs and alcohol as their vehicle...at age 25 she still struggles with serious drug addiction and mental illness. So if you think I don't want to see death as a clear consequence...think again.
Rant is far from over...as it is a living hell for the entire family.

There is no action that is free from consequence or sequelea of events.

< Message edited by PrimitiveLogic -- 11/20/2006 6:36:34 AM >

(in reply to LadyEllen)

Post #: 29

RE: Psychopathia Sexualis - 11/20/2006 6:35:23 AM

LadyEllen

Posts: 10931
Joined: 6/30/2006
From: Stourport-England
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

The people who attack paedophiles or anyone else are questionable in the extreme. Didn't you hear about the paediatrician who was attacked because a lynch mob mistook paediatrician for paedophile? There are ways to protect children but like all things in life, if you don't want to lock people up for their protection, protection can't be 100%.

Oh yes - didnt that just show the calibre of average British intellect? As if a paedophile would advertise in the Yellow Pages? For goodness' sake.

As for locking them up - no, it cant be 100%, human ingenuity in escaping etc makes that impossible. But still I see no excuse or reason to allow these dangerous people to walk free in society, supposedly reformed and deterred from their passions by a spell in prison.

Did you see the Panorama programme? Paedos on parole? Now if that doesnt motivate us to do something, what will?

E

_____________________________

In a test against the leading brand, 9 out of 10 participants couldnt tell the difference. Dumbasses.

(in reply to meatcleaver)

Post #: 30

RE: Psychopathia Sexualis - 11/20/2006 6:42:50 AM

LadyEllen

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From: Stourport-England
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Primitive - good to hear the opinion of one with professional and regrettably personal experience and knowledge on this subject. I wouldnt go so far as to execute paedos though, although maybe its an option they might like if they do acknowledge and understand what it is they are and do.

Also surprised to hear someone can voluntarily become a paedo. My impression always was, that it was something either inherent or buried deep in the psyche.

E

_____________________________

In a test against the leading brand, 9 out of 10 participants couldnt tell the difference. Dumbasses.

(in reply to LadyEllen)

Post #: 31

RE: Psychopathia Sexualis - 11/20/2006 6:55:13 AM

LordODiscipline

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OK -

This is the same stunted/faulted logic which led to the arrest and incarceration of Jews and Gypsys in WW2, the Japanes in America in WW2 and various other peoples throughout history.

It has been tried and is definitively something which is illegal in modern democracys.

People either have rights - or - they have rights at the convenience of the state...

We either have laws that protect people, or ones that persecute people.

You cannot have it both ways.

~J

quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyEllen

So now we have two reasons to segregate the paedos - to protect us from them and to protect them from us. It can be an either/or, but whichever way, they are about as welcome in our communities as a rabid dog.

Lock them away, to provide for their own rights.

E

_____________________________

"Anyone who thinks they're important is usually just a pompous moron who can't deal with his or her own pathetic insignificance and the fact that what they do is meaningless and inconsequential."
William Thomas

(in reply to LadyEllen)

Post #: 32

RE: Psychopathia Sexualis - 11/20/2006 7:00:22 AM

PrimitiveLogic

Posts: 145
Joined: 4/25/2006
From: Md.
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Thank you for the acknowledgement* LE

Just as we can be influenced by a significant person at any point in our life; so can we be influenced by visual, acoustic and other sensory media. A vouyer has to catch his first glimspe somewhere/we have all heard someones moans through a wall/pornography of all manner is designed to create that tug inside you...be it provacative anime, innocent early playboy, or blatant down and dirty film. What is the trigger in yourself to take something from mental to action? What makes youwish to emulate something that you hadn't considered before? What brings a thought to an action to a need to a compulsion to an obsession...and further?
Answer that, then come up with a way to modify it...then we might have a chance to re-evaluate deviance.

< Message edited by PrimitiveLogic -- 11/20/2006 7:30:18 AM >

(in reply to LadyEllen)

Post #: 33

RE: Psychopathia Sexualis - 11/20/2006 7:04:26 AM

LadyEllen

Posts: 10931
Joined: 6/30/2006
From: Stourport-England
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: LordODiscipline

OK -

This is the same stunted/faulted logic which led to the arrest and incarceration of Jews and Gypsys in WW2, the Japanes in America in WW2 and various other peoples throughout history.

It has been tried and is definitively something which is illegal in modern democracys.

People either have rights - or - they have rights at the convenience of the state...

We either have laws that protect people, or ones that persecute people.

You cannot have it both ways.

~J

We differentiate between those who commit crime and those who do not; we take away the freedom of those who commit crime - surely a violation of their rights?

What I cannot understand, is that if a paedo molests, rapes, even maims a child, he is given a set custodial sentence and then released, and you argue that to act otherwise is against his rights.

Whilst, if he happens to kill the child as part of or following his attack, then it is perfectly in order to remove his right to freedom and privacy by placing him in gaol for life, and/or remove his right to life.

Why do we place him in gaol for life and/or execute the one who kills, and that permanent reduction of his rights is OK, but we have a problem with permanently reducing the rights of a paedo who does everything but end the biological functioning of his victim? (phrased that way for a reason).- even if he has done his deed multiple times, with multiple victims and is likely to do the same again?

What about the rights of Charlie Manson to be freed? Why dont you call for that?

E

_____________________________

In a test against the leading brand, 9 out of 10 participants couldnt tell the difference. Dumbasses.

(in reply to LordODiscipline)

Post #: 34

RE: Psychopathia Sexualis - 11/20/2006 7:25:47 AM

thetammyjo

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I believe his is the first serious attempt to look at a wide range human sexuality in a scientific way. Very popular to try this approach with everything during his period with various degrees of success.

His ideas and interpretations were certainly very "liberal" compared to much of what was happening during his lifetime. To appreciate the work you should think of it within it's cultural and academic context -- don't compare to studies and attitudes today.

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Post #: 35

RE: Psychopathia Sexualis - 11/20/2006 7:38:01 AM

Ava82

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I would *love* to get my hands on a first printing of that book. Much like I am always in pursuit of the DSM-I and -II. They are really relics of a form of thought gone by, and important to remember.

Honestly, though, I don't know why the DSM-IV considers pedophilia a fetish. Considering "fetish" as defined by them involves an inanimate object. Kids are definitely not inanimate. Pedophilia and beastiality shouldn't be listed as fetishes.

As far as recidivism, I once read a great quote, I think it was from John Douglas. It went something like "if someone were to tell me I had to stop being attracted to adult women, that it was wrong, and against the law, I would not be able to." As long as your pedophile isn't an oppurtunistic one-just somebody who molested a kid because he had a chance to, not because he's got a deep seated attraction to kids-I highly doubt you'll be able to rehabilitate him to the point where he can find a fulfilling sexual relationship with an adult and no longer be interested in children.

(in reply to thetammyjo)

Post #: 36

RE: Psychopathia Sexualis - 11/20/2006 7:39:20 AM

LordODiscipline

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Joined: 6/28/2004
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Wow -

You are really on a slippery slope with no return in this thinking process.

We incarcerate people for specific lengths of time in accorance with the laws and the proscribed penalty should they be found guilty.

That is determined by the bearing of "unreasonable/reasonable" and weighed by the governments through their people's allowances.

It is not "cruel and unusual" punishment as that (in itself) is a determination weighed in the courts and found acceptable under the law.

"I" am not setting these boundarys - they are set by your government (ostensibly and arguably 'the people') in an effort to support, defend, and to secure the freedoms of all the people equally.

You are 'winging' a response based on the emotionality of the crime -and- this is one of the very things that laws and the courts were set about and constructed to prevent; because (invariably and inevitably), someone's life is foirfeit due to such pandering and irrational behavior.

By extending your reasoning to the next level, we might ponder 'why not simply place them in concentration camps and kill them in a gas chamber? It protects the rights of the potential victims and secures an assurance that they shallnot escape and rape again'

Charles Manson has nothing to do with this situation... as you mentioned, murderers are sentenced differently an in accorance with the law.

~J

Who was it that said: 'First they came for the jews/socialists/trade unionists/me.....'?

quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyEllen

quote:

ORIGINAL: LordODiscipline

OK -

This is the same stunted/faulted logic which led to the arrest and incarceration of Jews and Gypsys in WW2, the Japanes in America in WW2 and various other peoples throughout history.

It has been tried and is definitively something which is illegal in modern democracys.

People either have rights - or - they have rights at the convenience of the state...

We either have laws that protect people, or ones that persecute people.

You cannot have it both ways.

~J

We differentiate between those who commit crime and those who do not; we take away the freedom of those who commit crime - surely a violation of their rights?

What I cannot understand, is that if a paedo molests, rapes, even maims a child, he is given a set custodial sentence and then released, and you argue that to act otherwise is against his rights.

Whilst, if he happens to kill the child as part of or following his attack, then it is perfectly in order to remove his right to freedom and privacy by placing him in gaol for life, and/or remove his right to life.

Why do we place him in gaol for life and/or execute the one who kills, and that permanent reduction of his rights is OK, but we have a problem with permanently reducing the rights of a paedo who does everything but end the biological functioning of his victim? (phrased that way for a reason).- even if he has done his deed multiple times, with multiple victims and is likely to do the same again?

What about the rights of Charlie Manson to be freed? Why dont you call for that?

E

_____________________________

"Anyone who thinks they're important is usually just a pompous moron who can't deal with his or her own pathetic insignificance and the fact that what they do is meaningless and inconsequential."
William Thomas

(in reply to LadyEllen)

Post #: 37

RE: Psychopathia Sexualis - 11/20/2006 7:53:13 AM

LadyEllen

Posts: 10931
Joined: 6/30/2006
From: Stourport-England
Status: offline

Oh good grief.

By your own admission then, if the government through the people, adapted the law to say they should be kept segregated, then that would be OK? But on the other hand, you earlier said this was not possible?

That is determined by the bearing of "unreasonable/reasonable" and weighed by the governments through their people's allowances.

It is not "cruel and unusual" punishment as that (in itself) is a determination weighed in the courts and found acceptable under the law.

"I" am not setting these boundarys - they are set by your government (ostensibly and arguably 'the people') in an effort to support, defend, and to secure the freedoms of all the people equally.

_____________________________

In a test against the leading brand, 9 out of 10 participants couldnt tell the difference. Dumbasses.

(in reply to LordODiscipline)

Post #: 38

RE: Psychopathia Sexualis - 11/20/2006 8:28:11 AM

mutilatedflower

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From: Melbourne, Australia
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Going back to the original topic, I studied Krafft-Ebing's PS in my undergraduate degree, as part of a sociology program, which often relied on psychology texts from past and present. However, I only got to study a few of the case studies, as it was decided it would simply take up too much of the course, to let it dominate so thoroughly. I am quite fascinated by the looks of the film, and it has renewed my interest in reading PS in full this time. I'm a little concerned, though, that if it received THAT degree of limited release, it will never reach down under.

But I do believe a copy of the book would be a somewhat awesome Christmas present for the beloved, haha.

_____________________________

dig it up and devour
and it will be more like a song
and less like it's math
if you pull on my hair, and bite me like that
and the truth is that i can't hardly wait
and i don't care if we stay up too late

(in reply to PrimitiveLogic)

Post #: 39

RE: Psychopathia Sexualis - 11/20/2006 9:41:13 AM

Arpig

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quote:

The problem with Krafft-Ebing is that he wrote Psychopatia Sexualis from the things he saw in an asylum.
As all the pepole he was looking wer menatlly insane, the sexual behavior was considered to be related to their illness so making them "deviant".

I think you might have it backwards, I suspect a lot of the people he studied were considered mentally insane because of their socially peculiar sexual tastes

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Post #: 40

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