RE: Bilingual ballots?

RE: Bilingual ballots? (Full Version)

All Forums >> [Casual Banter] >> Off the Grid

Message

stef -> RE: Bilingual ballots? (11/22/2006 12:14:54 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: slaveMastery But then, if these multi-lingual and -cultural outreaches are geared towards a diverse demographic and this should be reflected in providing foreign-language instructions in our electoral process, why limit the election instructions to merely one group? Why then only Spanish and not address the other larger cultural/ethnic demographic groups like the Italians, Germans, French, Polish, Chinese, Russian, etc? Which languages are included on ballots is determined by provisions in amendments to the Voting Rights Act of 1965. In the 1975 amendment, section 203 specified that oral and written translations of voting materials must be made available in jusisdictions where at least 5% percent of the voting age citizens (or at least 10,000 people) of a single language minority group who are not fully proficient in English and whose illiteracy rate exceeds the national average. ~stef

LotusSong -> RE: Bilingual ballots? (11/22/2006 12:34:41 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: ZenrageTheKeeper When one thinks of how other countries in Europe and Asia have to deal with different dialects and how they have to overcome their own language barriers, it always strikes me as completely juvenile to complain when parts of America incorporate other languages in its culture. If the second language was German, or Italian, or Norwegian, then I could see the absurdity of it. But as it is, America is and will always be bordered to a large population of Spanish speaking individuals. So suck it up and deal with it. Then there is the issue that they don't real their OWN language let along want to learn anyone elses..

meatcleaver -> RE: Bilingual ballots? (11/22/2006 12:56:39 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: slaveMastery quote: ORIGINAL: meatcleaver The South Americas also inherited a political culture from Spain and Portugal - which at the time of their colonization were not just European, but global powerhouses. I believe that you can attribute the differences in outcome between the North and South Americas, in part (not to be accused of absolute claims again), to 1) colonial structure: North America threw off the colonial vampirism of draining the land and people of their natural resources, whereas the South Americas suffered this drain for quite a bit longer; 2) social structure: the North Americas abolished slavery at a much early stage, which allowed for a more even and broad distribution of wealth across all people (well, a lot more than in the South Americas), whereas a feudal vs. slave social structure existed much longer in the South Americas, leading to a concentration of wealth in a very small percentage of the population. You should read your history and forget the national myth. Britain purchased goods from the colonies and the colonies did well out of Britain having a significant trade surplus which is why after independence the GDP of the colonies fell significantly and Britain did well having got rid of a significant reason for its national debt. The US banned slavery very late in the game and under some significant external pressure. When the colonies were under the British each state had a democratic self governing assembly and a British governor that seldom interfered with local politics. One of the main reason for independence was that the colonies had matured into a self governing state and not that they were oppressed.

popeye1250 -> RE: Bilingual ballots? (11/22/2006 1:30:20 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: caitlyn There will probably be a guest worker system put in place very soon, which should do much to ameliorate the problem. Caitlyn, there had better not be or the Democrats will be out in two years. WTF is it that these college graduates in Washington just can't understand when the American People tell them, "Enorce Our Laws?" I mean are they trying to Piss Off The American People? Why do they think law enforcement is somehow "negotiable?" The Republicans thought they could do nothing and look what happenned to them! Anyone in Washington, D.C. who doesn't think they can do the job should resign.

JerseyKrissi72 -> RE: Bilingual ballots? (11/22/2006 1:38:36 PM)
I can speak both Spanish and English and when chatting w/ friends sometimes I perfer to speak Spanish...I was born here in the U.S. and know English very well as I'm quite educated but sometimes WE feel more comfortable with our own languages whether it be Spanish, German, English or otherwise...Why do you care if ballots are in English and Spanish so long as you can vote, eh?? If something offends thy eye...then pluck your damn eye out...or turn the other way..[8D]

LadyEllen -> RE: Bilingual ballots? (11/22/2006 1:52:40 PM)
There is no problem with having the ballots printed in the two most well used languages. Except, 1) as I understand it, the US is now experiencing a great deal of immigration from India (if someone could clarify); will the ballots therefore also need to be printed in Hindi, Urdu and so on as well as English and Spanish? Where does such a process end? With a ballot paper 30 feet long, or with alternative ballots in different languages, and having to recruit counters who speak several very different languages to ensure that one person has not voted multiple times (ie, once with a ballot in each language). Except, 2) a common language is one of the most critical elements in producing a unified nation. Sure, there are examples such as Belgium and Switzerland, of stable multi-lingual nations, but they are by no means any form of comparator with the US. Belgium is divided roughly down the middle as regards Flemish/French, and Switzerland similarly has French, German and Italian speaking areas. Thus, were the Spanish speakers confined to and homogenous within only certain states, we would have a similar situation as with Belgium and Switzerland, but as I understand it, this is far from the case. In addition, both of those countries are man made by mutual agreement between its linguistic divisions to combine, a long time ago in the case of Switzerland, more recently in the case of Belgium. One could argue the US is also man made, but having enjoyed homogenous language for the most part, the incursion of other languages sets up a classic cultural confrontation which cannot be a good influence in working towards integration and a common national identity. E

meatcleaver -> RE: Bilingual ballots? (11/22/2006 2:08:46 PM)
When a country has more than one official language it either becomes unstable, draconian or a very loose federation. Switzerland is a very loose federation, Belgium is inherently unstable and really isn't a country because one half doesn't talk to the other half. What I understand, Canada is a very loose federation. When I was there it seemed the Anglophones were more willing to speak French than the Francophones were willing to speak English. I didn't come across many Quebecois willing to speak English but I came across many Anglophones willing to speak French. I just wish the Quebecois' could speak decent French because I couldn't understand them half of the time and they refused to speak English.

LotusSong -> RE: Bilingual ballots? (11/22/2006 3:19:23 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: JerseyKrissi72 I can speak both Spanish and English and when chatting w/ friends sometimes I perfer to speak Spanish...I was born here in the U.S. and know English very well as I'm quite educated but sometimes WE feel more comfortable with our own languages whether it be Spanish, German, English or otherwise...Why do you care if ballots are in English and Spanish so long as you can vote, eh?? If something offends thy eye...then pluck your damn eye out...or turn the other way..[8D] It's all about money. It's the added expense of having to do things twice.

JerseyKrissi72 -> RE: Bilingual ballots? (11/22/2006 3:42:45 PM)
everything seems to be about money anymore

LotusSong -> RE: Bilingual ballots? (11/22/2006 5:16:26 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: popeye1250 quote: ORIGINAL: caitlyn There will probably be a guest worker system put in place very soon, which should do much to ameliorate the problem. Caitlyn, there had better not be or the Democrats will be out in two years. WTF is it that these college graduates in Washington just can't understand when the American People tell them, "Enorce Our Laws?" I mean are they trying to Piss Off The American People? Why do they think law enforcement is somehow "negotiable?" The Republicans thought they could do nothing and look what happenned to them! Anyone in Washington, D.C. who doesn't think they can do the job should resign. Now think, Popeye.. if we have a workers program.. we know where they are at. And hopefully, the employers will pay EVERYBODY a living wage. As it is now, they have to fly under the radar and are at the mercy of the employer.

LotusSong -> RE: Bilingual ballots? (11/22/2006 5:17:57 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: LadyEllen There is no problem with having the ballots printed in the two most well used languages. Except, 1) as I understand it, the US is now experiencing a great deal of immigration from India (if someone could clarify); will the ballots therefore also need to be printed in Hindi, Urdu and so on as well as English and Spanish? Where does such a process end? With a ballot paper 30 feet long, or with alternative ballots in different languages, and having to recruit counters who speak several very different languages to ensure that one person has not voted multiple times (ie, once with a ballot in each language). Except, 2) a common language is one of the most critical elements in producing a unified nation. Sure, there are examples such as Belgium and Switzerland, of stable multi-lingual nations, but they are by no means any form of comparator with the US. Belgium is divided roughly down the middle as regards Flemish/French, and Switzerland similarly has French, German and Italian speaking areas. Thus, were the Spanish speakers confined to and homogenous within only certain states, we would have a similar situation as with Belgium and Switzerland, but as I understand it, this is far from the case. In addition, both of those countries are man made by mutual agreement between its linguistic divisions to combine, a long time ago in the case of Switzerland, more recently in the case of Belgium. One could argue the US is also man made, but having enjoyed homogenous language for the most part, the incursion of other languages sets up a classic cultural confrontation which cannot be a good influence in working towards integration and a common national identity. E Ellen, I heard that Mandarin Chinese is the second most widely spoken language.

LTRsubNW -> RE: Bilingual ballots? (11/22/2006 6:16:00 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: slaveMastery During my first election this year (newly naturalized citizen), I had a massive HUH??-effect when looking at the electoral mid-term ballot. All instructions and content were printed both in English and in Spanish. Now, I am not one of the bilingualism-bashers that demand that everything has to be written in English in the U.S., but what I definitely did not get is this: In order to vote, you have to be a citizen. In order to become a citizen, you have to pass a test before the INS in which you demonstrate your ability to understand, speak, read and write the English language. Then why the heck would the ballots be printed in anything else but English? That's a damn good question. I, for one, don't understand why everything here isn't in English (moreover, why there is any other option). That's not biased, it's a simple fact...we speak English here. We don't use Dinero's on occasion or English Pounds...we use Dollars. We are in America. It's my opinion, if you choose to work, live and breath here...you speak the language...whether it's during indoctrination, asking me for a job...or selling me a burger through a pair of shitty speaker systems... When I'm in Russia, Paris, Norway or Guadelahara (sp?)...I take a dictionary...and I sure as shit don't get upset if someone can't figure out why I'm holding my dick in the middle of some mall and look like I haven't pee'd for a week (and surely will any moment). (Ya know?)

FangsNfeet -> RE: Bilingual ballots? (11/22/2006 6:21:40 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: slaveMastery During my first election this year (newly naturalized citizen), I had a massive HUH??-effect when looking at the electoral mid-term ballot. All instructions and content were printed both in English and in Spanish. Now, I am not one of the bilingualism-bashers that demand that everything has to be written in English in the U.S., but what I definitely did not get is this: In order to vote, you have to be a citizen. In order to become a citizen, you have to pass a test before the INS in which you demonstrate your ability to understand, speak, read and write the English language. Then why the heck would the ballots be printed in anything else but English? Try working a voting booth and realize that the hispanic there to vote can't read nor write English or Spanish. He can only speak Spanish. As for citizenship, remember that some of these hispanics where born in the U.S. after there parents jumped the border. It was just never a priority to have the kid learn to read/write any language. So they're stuck speaking only spanish and catching an english term now and then.

caitlyn -> RE: Bilingual ballots? (11/22/2006 9:46:56 PM)
There will be a guest worked program, because some states on the border need these workers, in one form or another. You may think what you want about the college graduates in Washington, but on this issue, my opinion is that they are in the right. I don't agree with President Bush on very many things, but on this issue, he clearly understands that taking a hard line will cost millions of American citizens their jobs, with the collapse of the south Texas economy. The guest worker program, offers a 'cooler heads' solution to this issue, as it more likely than not, would give individual states control over how many guest worker permits they would allow. California could keep these workers out, while Texas could allow them in. It would also no longer be a question of enforcing the law, as guest workers would not be illegals. The hard liners, unable to see the forest for the trees, may yet get their way on this issue. If that happens, get ready to open your wallet. The financial cost to the American taxpayer, will be overwhelming.

ScooterTrash -> RE: Bilingual ballots? (11/23/2006 3:20:54 AM)
In my opinion, they (ballots) should be in English. If I was in another country, legally, illegally, visiting or permanent, I would anticipate that I needed to learn the language of the land, not that the land would conform to me.

LadyEllen -> RE: Bilingual ballots? (11/23/2006 3:39:59 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: ScooterTrash In my opinion, they (ballots) should be in English. If I was in another country, legally, illegally, visiting or permanent, I would anticipate that I needed to learn the language of the land, not that the land would conform to me. For definite. I travel a lot in Europe, especially to the Czech Republic, (business, unfortunately), and whilst I can usually find someone that speaks English, German or French to help me out, by no means is that something that I expect. I was in Prague airport last week - and had to use the little Czech language I've learned to get what I wanted from the shops there. Meanwhile, other English speakers were doing the usual thing - shouting and pointing and waving their arms about in a vague "damned foreigners should learn English" effort to be understood. Now my point is, if I can learn enough Czech in a year to get by on 2-3 day visits four times a year, then why on earth should it be so onerous, oppressive and unreasonable to expect someone coming to live in an English speaking country, to learn English to a good enough standard that they can function in the language? E

philosophy -> RE: Bilingual ballots? (11/23/2006 8:43:37 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: ScooterTrash In my opinion, they (ballots) should be in English. If I was in another country, legally, illegally, visiting or permanent, I would anticipate that I needed to learn the language of the land, not that the land would conform to me. ........thing is, there are several countries in the world where you'd need to learn more than one language. In Canada both English and French are official languages, in Wales English and Welsh are both used.........it seems to me that the US is leaning towards becoming a two language country. This is not necessarily a bad thing.

gretchenS -> RE: Bilingual ballots? (11/23/2006 9:00:47 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: slaveMastery quote: ORIGINAL: meatcleaver The South Americas have cultural diversity and it didn't create wealth there. Surely one of the main reasons for the US success is that it inherited a political culture and elite from Britain just like Canada, Australia, New Zealand and India did. It hurts to accept that I know. The South Americas also inherited a political culture from Spain and Portugal - which at the time of their colonization were not just European, but global powerhouses. I believe that you can attribute the differences in outcome between the North and South Americas, in part (not to be accused of absolute claims again), to 1) colonial structure: North America threw off the colonial vampirism of draining the land and people of their natural resources, whereas the South Americas suffered this drain for quite a bit longer; 2) social structure: the North Americas abolished slavery at a much early stage, which allowed for a more even and broad distribution of wealth across all people (well, a lot more than in the South Americas), whereas a feudal vs. slave social structure existed much longer in the South Americas, leading to a concentration of wealth in a very small percentage of the population. So, even though the South Americas had a similar foundation of ethnic diversity, the outcome was much different. While in North America (after the extermination of most of the Native American Culture) the colonizing ages brought families with european culture, christian religion, and european moral values and politics, the Spanish colonizers (who were the worst of the Spanish prisons) brought sickness, alcoholism, genocide and extermination for fairly advanced cultures like the Mayas or the Incas, in order to get gold and fame. They killed and raped all of South and Central America for centuries. When the gold flow was over, they decided it would be nice to have a big piece of land to stablish as family men and respected lords. (go figure) Is true that wealthness has never been with us, and probably never will, because our culture is based in the moral values and politics that these men left behind. I firmly believe South and Central America would be better places if the Spanish never came to destroy it all. Edited to add: (Also, slavery was abolished with the independence of each country, between 1800 and 1900)

popeye1250 -> RE: Bilingual ballots? (11/23/2006 7:02:35 PM)
Caitlyn, first of all expecting our govt. to do it's job is not being a "hardliner". I expect not only elected officials but anyone who works for the govt. to perform their duties just like I did for so many years. Those people are in office to do what WE tell them to do. As for illegalls costing the U.S. Taxpayer they now cost us $92B per year for schooling, jails, welfare medical... The American People are getting angrier and angrier about this and this moron Bush continues to do nothing. As for anyone hiring illegals they are committing a Federal Felony and I hope they lose everything they own and ROT in jail. A guy told me once; "I have two words for any company who hires illegal aliens; "Gasoline" "Matches."

WyrdRich -> RE: Bilingual ballots? (11/23/2006 7:23:19 PM)
There is a very simple reason the gov't hasn't (and won't) put a stop to the illegal immigration, Popeye. It's pretty obvious if you step back from the immediate costs and employment concerns. A bit too much turkey for that conversation this evening though. Learned a new phrase at work this week though. I was bitching to another operator about the huge amount of time the guys in the tire shop were taking and his reply instantly joined my vocabulary. "They don't give a shit, they're all Home Depot." It wasn't rascist, he is from the same place and the ink on his green card is barely dry. The nastiest comments I hear about illegals come from the guys who stood in line.

Page: << < prev 1 2 [3] 4 next > >>

Collarchat.com © 2025

Terms of Service

0.03125