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Re-negotiating hard limits - 11/23/2006 1:06:30 PM

justLady

Posts: 26
Joined: 6/21/2006
Status: offline

Good evening all,

I have a question relating to a situation I was involved in which I would sincerely appreciate your views on. I have lurked these boards for many, many months and know there is a wealth of valuable experience present.

Would you allow a slave or submissive to re-negotiate something that had been used as a punishment into a hard limit?

I have always, and without question, accepted hard limits but I once played with a boy whose only stated limits related to bloodsports, forced-bi, scat and infantalism.

He displeased me in a particularly disappointing manner and agreed to his punishment - in this instance, a severe but physically painless form of humiliation. He took his punishment well and I was proud of him. I knew he detested the activity and mentally decided to use it sparingly for the serious behavioural infractions.

Subsequently, he informed me that he wished to include this activity as a hard limit.

As it happened, other circumstances had lead me to believe this boy to be unsuitable for my collar and I never had to take a decision about it but I've wondered since what I would have done in this circumstance should it have been a boy I thought had true potential.

On the one hand, I fully appreciate that subs/slaves are entitled to their hard limits and respect them without question. On the other hand, I feel that re-negotiating a punishment as a hard limit effectively manipulates a Mistress into a situation where Her most effective threats are taken away - particularly in this instance where it was an activity that did not involve crossing a physical pain/endurance barrier. Of course, communication is the key but I wondered if any of you had experienced something similar and how you handled it? I have not fully formed my view on this issue and would be grateful for your views.

I thank you in advance for your contributions and extend a welcome to any slaves/submissives/Masters viewing this post to respond also. I would appreciate a broad range of opinion but thought this forum the most logical place to ask the question.

< Message edited by justLady -- 11/23/2006 1:25:50 PM >

Post #: 1

RE: Re-negotiating hard limits - 11/23/2006 1:10:13 PM

empresschaos

Posts: 84
Joined: 10/23/2005
Status: offline

Yes, I'd accept it. Maybe a subs hard limits are few, but he or she discovers that medical play, a violet wand, or water bondage (as in being dunked, etc., not watersports), are just too much. Maybe you put a sub in the corner, or lock him or her in a closet as punishment, only to find that horrible repressed memories from childhood surface. Every relationship must be flexible in some ways.

(in reply to justLady)

Post #: 2

RE: Re-negotiating hard limits - 11/23/2006 1:17:56 PM

slavejali

Posts: 2918
Status: offline

If I was a Mistress, I would have probably responded with " Are you planning on repeating the infraction so that punishment has to occur again? Let's do it this way, that punishment will only ever be for that thing (previous crime committed), its a hard limit for everything else...this way you can make sure you never have to experience it again..... and we will both be happy"

I'm just theorising and have no clue really, but thats what came to mind.

< Message edited by slavejali -- 11/23/2006 1:18:36 PM >

_____________________________

Freedom in Bondage

Different Strokes for Different Folks

"I'll always have a *soft spot* for Sadists"

(in reply to empresschaos)

Post #: 3

RE: Re-negotiating hard limits - 11/23/2006 1:23:58 PM

justLady

Posts: 26
Joined: 6/21/2006
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: empresschaos

Yes, I'd accept it. Maybe a subs hard limits are few, but he or she discovers that medical play, a violet wand, or water bondage (as in being dunked, etc., not watersports), are just too much. Maybe you put a sub in the corner, or lock him or her in a closet as punishment, only to find that horrible repressed memories from childhood surface. Every relationship must be flexible in some ways.

Hi empresschaos,

Thank you for your comments. I understand your view completely.

Of course, if a particular form of play reproduced traumatic experiences for a boy, I would completely accept that.

However, in this instance, that was not the case and caused the boy nothing further than extreme embarrassment and some mild discomfort. It was not a deeply felt plea for leniency or an inability to psychologically bear the activity, more of a 'I don't like that at all and don't want to do it anymore' response. That makes him sound childish, brattish and unsophisticated - he wasn't but in a nutshell, that was his position.

Would that change your view of whether you would accept it as a re-negotiated hard limit?

Many thanks.

(in reply to empresschaos)

Post #: 4

RE: Re-negotiating hard limits - 11/23/2006 1:38:50 PM

empresschaos

Posts: 84
Joined: 10/23/2005
Status: offline

I'd talk to him about it. I think I'd tell him something along the lines of, "Punishment isn't for fun, it's for training. I can't accept sticking only to things you outright enjoy as a condition to our relationship, but I would like some input from you on how that made you feel, and whether you understand why you've been punished in this way."

It sounds like punishment itself might have been what he didn't enjoy, and maybe punishment was really his limit. Some subs enjoy being tortured to pieces for their domme's sexual gratification, but feel a new level of remorse that they can't immediately express at having to concentrate on how they've displeased their domme. It would definitely instigate a conversation for me, and could potentially show that the relationship is not so compatible.

(in reply to justLady)

Post #: 5

RE: Re-negotiating hard limits - 11/23/2006 1:41:39 PM

LadyHugs

Posts: 2299
Joined: 1/1/2004
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Dear justLady, Ladies and Gentlemen;

The mind is a tricky area to travel from the outsider's point of view. At times when I scened with military lads, they thought honestly they would be ok with things and when done, it suddenly wasn't an ok thing.

Indeed, it goes down to the raw spirit of intent to suddenly throw up a previous experience as a hard limit. Some do indeed start making so many hard limits, as a manipulation as to Top from the bottom and or dig away the power of a dominant. Some do indeed come in and find that what they thought they could handle honestly, was something their soul forbids them to do again. It is time to communicate where the 'intent' comes from--games or serious fear.

Creativities of the mind is a Dominant's greatest gift. There are reasonings behind punishment, as not to have the person repeat the behavior.

Communication, in my mind's eyes I see is the paramount issue right now, as to figure fully; as a full and fair investigation into things, as to deeply dig and not settle for a shallow answer. Sometimes people quit to easily on each other. The desire to understand where another person comes from is a duty to each other. It is only fair.

I would also say how the behavior of him accepting sparingly the use of an action/behavior effects/affects you as well. It is a "we" thing, not just him and or you issue.

If you both come to the conclusion that you both are willing to invest in one another, than work with each other. Communicate and experiment and don't be afraid of trying a series of things until you get the right mix that works for your domination style and his submission style. Part of problem solving is discovering what works, what does not and what might work but, yet tried.

Respectfully submitted for consideration,
Lady Hugs

(in reply to justLady)

Post #: 6

RE: Re-negotiating hard limits - 11/23/2006 1:43:56 PM

thetammyjo

Posts: 6322
Joined: 9/8/2005
Status: offline

I don't do the entire punishment thing very often -- I can count on one hand the number of times I've punished Fox in our 7+ years. I really don't see much point in being in a Ds relationship where the other person requires punishment -- he's an adult, he should act like an adult and do his best if he really wants to be my sub or slave.

On the other hand it is nearly impossible to be aware of all of ones limits, hard or soft, if one has not had the experience before. How do you know how it will affect you until you do it?

Frankly I'd say to the boy at that point: Don't misbehave then and you'll never need to have that experience again. Thus you still have the punishment and he can make the choice then whether or not to be obedient or whatever the problem is.

_____________________________

Love, Peace, Hugs, Kisses, Whips & Chains,

TammyJo

Check out my website at http://www.thetammyjo.com Or www.tammyjoeckhart.com

And my LJ where I post fiction in progress if you "friend" me at http://thetammyjo.livejournal.com/

(in reply to justLady)

Post #: 7

RE: Re-negotiating hard limits - 11/23/2006 1:57:47 PM

MagiksSlave

Posts: 2768
Joined: 9/11/2006
Status: offline

There has to be room to add and take away from hard limits. A lot of people dont realise something is a hard limit if they have never done it befor. Its unfair to expect that a person will know EVERYTHING they may be ever unwilling to do aspecially if they are new and havent tried very much how can they possably know what they are willing and unwilling to do. So if something new is done and the sub says wooohhhh this is not something im ever willing to do again that has to be their choice weather or not it was nigotiated from the begining or not. There always have to be room for further nigotiation!!!!

Magik's slave

_____________________________

If you’re going through hell keep on moving
don't slow down
if you’re scared dont show it
you might get out
before the devil even knows your there.

-Rodney Atkins-

(in reply to thetammyjo)

Post #: 8

RE: Re-negotiating hard limits - 11/23/2006 2:10:20 PM

crouchingtigress

Posts: 4387
Joined: 3/19/2006
From: Maui
Status: offline

yes for two make that three reasons.

1. it has been my personal experience (not knocking others) that 'punishments' are fraught with complications and are at best unuseful and at worst harmful. I choose to control from the place of consenting adult, and not to inspire fear to gain submission.

2. there are many ways to hold a person accountable and there can absolutely be a system of action and consequences to inspire behavior modification, but the idea of telling a person that they are "bad" except in play...has no up side. Communication does though.

3. there is no greater punishment to a submissive (again imo) then to simply withdraw dominance, this does not mean with drawing attention love affection and intimacy...only dominance. This trumps any show of force, and is the most effective technique i have ever found.

"power whispers it has no reason to yell"

and also my Sig line sums it up nicely...

< Message edited by crouchingtigress -- 11/23/2006 2:11:39 PM >

_____________________________

Service slut, durable plaything, and ponypenquincatdogpig, to Lee Harrington

This is him

"Its none of my buisness what other people think of me."

(in reply to thetammyjo)

Post #: 9

RE: Re-negotiating hard limits - 11/23/2006 2:52:46 PM

thetammyjo

Posts: 6322
Joined: 9/8/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: crouchingtigress

yes for two make that three reasons.

1. it has been my personal experience (not knocking others) that 'punishments' are fraught with complications and are at best unuseful and at worst harmful. I choose to control from the place of consenting adult, and not to inspire fear to gain submission.

2. there are many ways to hold a person accountable and there can absolutely be a system of action and consequences to inspire behavior modification, but the idea of telling a person that they are "bad" except in play...has no up side. Communication does though.

3. there is no greater punishment to a submissive (again imo) then to simply withdraw dominance, this does not mean with drawing attention love affection and intimacy...only dominance. This trumps any show of force, and is the most effective technique i have ever found.

"power whispers it has no reason to yell"

and also my Sig line sums it up nicely...

I agree with what you say, crouchingtigress and to a degree with MagiksSlave as well.

But the OP is a person who uses punishments and given her second post which made it clear the issues wasn't really a hard as is this "harms me" limit but a "I didn't like that" limit I think she should simply say "then don't do that any more".

As I've said repeatedly I think the need for repeated punishments is the sign you aren't compatible and you should let each of you more on to find a better partner.

_____________________________

Love, Peace, Hugs, Kisses, Whips & Chains,

TammyJo

Check out my website at http://www.thetammyjo.com Or www.tammyjoeckhart.com

And my LJ where I post fiction in progress if you "friend" me at http://thetammyjo.livejournal.com/

(in reply to crouchingtigress)

Post #: 10

RE: Re-negotiating hard limits - 11/23/2006 3:40:11 PM

crouchingtigress

Posts: 4387
Joined: 3/19/2006
From: Maui
Status: offline

Well basically i am out of my depth when it comes to punishment laden behavior modification to be honest because it is very foreign to me, i probably should not have posted, but then when has that ever stopped me...

I am at a loss for words right now because i want so badly to explain to the OP the folly of this method having lived it and its painful rammifications...but i dont write particularly well and i cant seem to put my thoughts in to words other then the clumsy post above.

I agree if you have to repeatedly punish someone in your stewardship either you are not compatible or you lack communication and imagination prowess.

_____________________________

Service slut, durable plaything, and ponypenquincatdogpig, to Lee Harrington

This is him

"Its none of my buisness what other people think of me."

(in reply to thetammyjo)

Post #: 11

RE: Re-negotiating hard limits - 11/23/2006 7:57:05 PM

pixelslave

Posts: 1444
Joined: 8/19/2006
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: justLady

Would you allow a slave or submissive to re-negotiate something that had been used as a punishment into a hard limit?

First, I would never enter into a relationship where punishment was a primary part of the relationship dynamic. If my Mistress had a problem with my behavior, I'd hope we would sit down and talk about it. If I needed to make amends for something I'd done, we could discuss that as well. If the latter would be your idea of punishment, then I'd be okay with that, but I see it as my way of trying to make things right with whomever I may have wronged, which might not actually be you, but which might include you as well as others.

quote:

He displeased me in a particularly disappointing manner and agreed to his punishment - in this instance, a severe but physically painless form of humiliation. He took his punishment well and I was proud of him. I knew he detested the activity and mentally decided to use it sparingly for the serious behavioural infractions.

From your description, it sounds as though the two of you talked abou this first? Was the punishment in any way related to the way in which he displeased you or to help him reflect upon his actions that displeased you? It seems to me that if a Mistress is going to use punishment as part of her way of dealing with a sub, that the punishment, or what I might prefer to refer to as "consequences" should fit the "crime" and help teach or reinforce a lesson that the sub needs to learn. In that way the consequences are meaningful, have a purpose, and are not just arbitrary.

quote:

Subsequently, he informed me that he wished to include this activity as a hard limit.

In what manner did he do that? Was that via a calm discussion, or was it in fit of anger or as an emotional reaction to something else? Putting it into context would perhaps be helpful to those who are trying to comment.

quote:

On the one hand, I fully appreciate that subs/slaves are entitled to their hard limits and respect them without question. On the other hand, I feel that re-negotiating a punishment as a hard limit effectively manipulates a Mistress into a situation where Her most effective threats are taken away - particularly in this instance where it was an activity that did not involve crossing a physical pain/endurance barrier. Of course, communication is the key but I wondered if any of you had experienced something similar and how you handled it? I have not fully formed my view on this issue and would be grateful for your views.

As others have said and I agree; submission is not something you'll receive or even would likely want from someone like me if you had to use a threat in order to get it. If that was your method, before you could blink, I'd be gone in a flash. But that's just me and I know it isn't what others may want.

To me it seems that a woman would want my submission to be given freely to her; that I'd be disappointed in myself if I'd displeased her. Knowing I'd failed in my assignment, would in itself be a great punishment for me (one of a mental nature inside my own mind). Your adding more punishment on top of that, would only be heaping pain on an open wound for me.

So as others have said, I don't see the benefit in general to using punishment as a motivator. My natural desire is to please the woman I serve. Failing to do that is punishment in it's own right. How can you punish me more than I can already do that to myself inside my own mind?? If anything, what I'd need most is your forgiveness for being human and unable to be perfect in serving you in the way that you desire.

- pixel

_____________________________

Chivalry isn't dead! It's for those who have it in their hearts & are willing to be taught. It's a way of life, a code of honor; this one's armor still needs some polishing!

(in reply to justLady)

Post #: 12

RE: Re-negotiating hard limits - 11/23/2006 8:13:23 PM

DiurnalVampire

Posts: 8125
Joined: 1/19/2006
From: Nashville, TN
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: justLady
Would you allow a slave or submissive to re-negotiate something that had been used as a punishment into a hard limit?

This one took me a while to wrap my head around. My boy is a novice, and I tend to view things from what I would or wouldnt do in that perspective. However the more I think about it, there are really 2 answers for my point of view, and they have to do with the subs level of experience.
Since Angel is a relative novice, I allow him a lot more leway in discovering what his hard limits are. Discovering that a punishment becomes one is no less likely than something we thought he might enjoy. So in that case, yes I would allow it.

However, an experienced sub might not have the same grace. Someone who has experienced things already, knew how they would react and decided that they wanted it as a hard limit well after the fact is different. While I will agree that new limits can be found even for those with vast experience, Id have to think twice about allowing the renegotiation if the punishment werent a first time experience for them. If I felt that they were trying to make it a limit simply to avoid my using it again instead of an actual real need to do so, I would confront them on it. I would expect an explination of why, after the punishment, he decided it should be changed. Depending on his answer, we would talk about limits.

I hope that makes sense
DV

_____________________________

I will be your Dominate if you will be my submit - Fox

Snarko Ergo Sum
If you cannot change your mind, how are you so sure you still have one? -proverb

*Owner of Fox - collared 10/13/07*
VampiresLair

(in reply to justLady)

Post #: 13

RE: Re-negotiating hard limits - 11/23/2006 8:15:08 PM

michaelOfGeorgia

Posts: 4253
Status: offline

my hard limits are set in stone

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Are we having fun, yet?

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Post #: 14

RE: Re-negotiating hard limits - 11/23/2006 8:28:36 PM

MagiksSlave

Posts: 2768
Joined: 9/11/2006
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: michaelOfGeorgia

my hard limits are set in stone

Ok well I get it the limits you have now are never going to go away but lets say a Mistress had you do somthing you had never done that wasnt a limit and you hated it with such an extreme that under no sercomstance would you ever consider doing it again, wouldnt you add that to your limits list??

Magik's slave

_____________________________

If you’re going through hell keep on moving
don't slow down
if you’re scared dont show it
you might get out
before the devil even knows your there.

-Rodney Atkins-

(in reply to michaelOfGeorgia)

Post #: 15

RE: Re-negotiating hard limits - 11/25/2006 5:24:01 AM

theGuideGoddess

Posts: 135
Joined: 11/8/2006
Status: offline

It is my belief (operative word: MY) that life is fluid and evolves. Relationships are most adaptable when fluid and should evolve to accommodate the happiness of the individuals involved. When we are starting on our adventure and have little experience we can not always know what an experience will truly be like real time. Fantasies can play out beautifully or can turn to our worst night mares. It is all relative to the ''players in that particular 'game'. Two people often will go through and experience together and it is the same experience, however the experience will be entirely different dependent upon the roles played. Example: I am certain the rapist and the raped (non fantasy type) are having entirely different experiences. For any one to tell someone how an experience will or should be perceived by them is beyond arrogance. None can dictate completely the inner workings of another's mind. In time with much intimate knowledge it may become predictable to determine another’s inner workings, but certainly would not be something that would usually or likely be present in a new and un-established relationship.

I have found that sometimes it will even take time for the submissive personality to analyze, understand and accept their own feelings and then to be able to properly communicate with clarity as they have yet to understand those feelings themselves. To react strongly (dismiss) I would see as irresponsible and uneducated behavior on the part of the party whom is supposedly in control.

One could enter into this lifestyle, inexperienced and open to all experiences and find that certain experiences would ultimately compromise them to a level that would be misery to them. For instance if there were a female submissive just beginning and she were to become involved with an alleged more experienced Master and agree that she had no limits....this is obviously an act of ignorance. EVERYBODY has limits! Period! There have been several outstanding suggestions on handling such situations with a modicum of wisdom and not vision limits as a certitude for compromise and lack of control. Therefore, if an honest desire to develop a relationship is in existance then there would also be some room for flex and give and re-negotiation. WE can be stubborn and demanding, compromise and still retain control. Who can be held to know what they don't know? After all should not the controller be assumed to also be wise and knowing??? And if they are void of wisdom or knowledge....wouldn't the wisdom of the servant require them to run??

Humility can and will be an entirely different experience to each and every one of us....as all experiences can and will be. Each of us will respond and react to things according to our personal past and desired futures. We all always have a choice. The choice to submit is a fluid choice a gift if you will. It can be withdrawn at any time. Someone who does not first delve deeply into the soul and mind of their potential submissive or slave to learn all of their intimate idiosyncrasies’ of that sub or slave has not performed their due diligence to develop any type of a permanent relationship and should not advertise themselves to be looking for something that they do not make the effort to take the efforts required.

I certainly recognize that each of us enters into this with unique and individual agendas. That is our privilege and right. And it is certain if we are attractive and desirable we will find what we seek. In order to be able to do this one must first know what they believe they seek and clearly paint a clear that picture to attract the proper potentials for them. Perhaps I take this all too seriously, but to play with someone’s mind and soul, to me, is a very serious matter and the results can be permanent either positively or negatively. Not applied with intelligence and care it could be ultimately damaging to not only an individual but could also be perceived as a black mark unto the community. Being a Dom or Domme does not automatically give one inherent rights or privileges any more than any other chosen position would.

The Guiding Goddess

(in reply to MagiksSlave)

Post #: 16

RE: Re-negotiating hard limits - 11/25/2006 5:28:16 AM

michaelOfGeorgia

Posts: 4253
Status: offline

more than likely. why would someone do something again that was distasteful the first time.

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Are we having fun, yet?

(in reply to MagiksSlave)

Post #: 17

RE: Re-negotiating hard limits - 11/25/2006 5:30:49 AM

mnottertail

Posts: 60698
Joined: 11/3/2004
Status: offline

to be pleasing.

_____________________________

Have they not divided the prey; to every man a damsel or two? Judges 5:30

(in reply to michaelOfGeorgia)

Post #: 18

RE: Re-negotiating hard limits - 11/25/2006 5:42:35 AM

MmakeMme

Posts: 682
Joined: 7/29/2006
From: NC
Status: offline

Crouchingtigress, you are a very wise woman indeed. ~smiling~

_____________________________

Happiness is not something ready made. It comes from your own actions. ~~ Dalai Lama

(in reply to crouchingtigress)

Post #: 19

RE: Re-negotiating hard limits - 11/25/2006 7:21:06 AM

justLady

Posts: 26
Joined: 6/21/2006
Status: offline

I truly thank you all for your considered viewpoints. As I expected, I have received a rich variety of opinion and have learned a lot from you all.

For clarity's sake, I use punishments sparingly. Once a boy is fully collared, I would expect him to give me little reason to punish him, preferring myself genuinely service-oriented boys. I punish wilful disobedience, not human frailty. I use them as I find it a useful way of correcting behaviour but also importantly, drawing a line under the incident entirely and generating forgiveness within myself. If a boy repeatedly required punishment, he would not be the correct boy for me.

I thank you all again and will add more when I have had the opportunity to absorb your comments more fully.

(in reply to MmakeMme)

Post #: 20

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