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Cut and Run, the Only Brave Thing to Do - 11/28/2006 11:15:22 AM   
Chaingang


Posts: 1727
Joined: 10/24/2005
Status: offline 		"Cut and Run, the Only Brave Thing to Do ...a letter from Michael Moore"
Tuesday, November 28th, 2006
http://www.michaelmoore.com/words/message/index.php?id=202

Yesterday marked the day that we had been in Iraq longer than we were in all of World War II.

That's right. We were able to defeat all of Nazi Germany, Mussolini, and the entire Japanese empire in LESS time than it's taken the world's only superpower to secure the road from the airport to downtown Baghdad.

---

How proud we must be.

_____________________________

"Everything flows, nothing stands still." (Πάντα ῥεῖ καὶ οὐδὲν μένει) - Heraclitus
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RE: Cut and Run, the Only Brave Thing to Do - 11/28/2006 11:24:17 AM   
meatcleaver


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Chaingang


That's right. We were able to defeat all of Nazi Germany, Mussolini, and the entire Japanese empire in LESS time than it's taken the world's only superpower to secure the road from the airport to downtown Baghdad.



Don't forget the other countries that were fighting Nazi Germany and Italy too, Britain, resistance movements from all occupied countries, Tito's Yugoslavians holding down significant German forces, Canada, Australia, New Zealand, India, South Africa, West Indies, West and East Africans from the British sphere and most importantly Russia.

In Iraq there is only the US and Britain and the rest are nominal.

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RE: Cut and Run, the Only Brave Thing to Do - 11/28/2006 11:41:40 AM   
Mercnbeth


Posts: 11766
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quote:

Yesterday marked the day that we had been in Iraq longer than we were in all of World War II.

That's right. We were able to defeat all of Nazi Germany, Mussolini, and the entire Japanese empire in LESS time than it's taken the world's only superpower to secure the road from the airport to downtown Baghdad.


Don't forget we bombed Germany relentlessly until achieving unconditional surrender.

Don't forget we used a couple of atomic bombs to achieve the same result with Japan.

In this case our goal appears to be unconditional political correctness.

How were the pictures of bald headed French woman 'collaborators' received compared to the pictures of Abu Ghraib? How were the German citizens handled by the Russian victors compared to current US treatment of the Iraqi citizens?

The impotence of the US led forces is not due to ability, but in not being allowed to do the job necessary to achieve the same result as they did in WWII. It's the biggest reason I have for not supporting them and supporting the effort to bring them home.

(in reply to Chaingang)
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RE: Cut and Run, the Only Brave Thing to Do - 11/28/2006 11:44:22 AM   
meatcleaver


Posts: 9030
Joined: 3/13/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth

The impotence of the US led forces is not due to ability, but in not being allowed to do the job necessary to achieve the same result as they did in WWII. It's the biggest reason I have for not supporting them and supporting the effort to bring them home.


WWII was about defeating an enemy. Iraq is or at least was, about liberating a country. You can hardly bomb a country you are supposed to be liberating back to the stoneage. Though we all know Iraq is not about liberating a country so much as liberating its oil.

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There are fascists who consider themselves humanitarians, like cannibals on a health kick, eating only vegetarians.

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RE: Cut and Run, the Only Brave Thing to Do - 11/28/2006 11:55:28 AM   
NorthernGent


Posts: 8730
Joined: 7/10/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Chaingang

"Cut and Run, the Only Brave Thing to Do ...a letter from Michael Moore"
Tuesday, November 28th, 2006
http://www.michaelmoore.com/words/message/index.php?id=202

Yesterday marked the day that we had been in Iraq longer than we were in all of World War II.

That's right. We were able to defeat all of Nazi Germany, Mussolini, and the entire Japanese empire in LESS time than it's taken the world's only superpower to secure the road from the airport to downtown Baghdad.

---

How proud we must be.


Chaingang, why don't you post more often? Your posts are always worth a read but they seem few and far between.

Feel free to consider this, the goal of the freedom fighters/insurgents/terrorists (depending on viewpoint) is to change US policy in the Middle East. They will not stop at Iraq. So, when the troops withdraw and there's no more Americans to kill in the region they will turn to civilians in the US (until foreign policy towards Israel/Palestine is changed). In my opinion, cut and run is a short term step towards the inevitable - a new foreign policy towards the M.E. Surely the solution is to change policy now and save a fair few lives in the process?

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Sooner or later, the man who wins is the man who thinks he can.

(in reply to Chaingang)
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RE: Cut and Run, the Only Brave Thing to Do - 11/28/2006 12:27:38 PM   
Mercnbeth


Posts: 11766
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quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth

The impotence of the US led forces is not due to ability, but in not being allowed to do the job necessary to achieve the same result as they did in WWII. It's the biggest reason I have for not supporting them and supporting the effort to bring them home.


WWII was about defeating an enemy. Iraq is or at least was, about liberating a country. You can hardly bomb a country you are supposed to be liberating back to the stone-age. Though we all know Iraq is not about liberating a country so much as liberating its oil.


Agreed, making the entire comparison irrelevant. Why was it brought up then?

(in reply to meatcleaver)
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RE: Cut and Run, the Only Brave Thing to Do - 11/28/2006 12:28:39 PM   
meatcleaver


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Joined: 3/13/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth

Agreed, making the entire comparison irrelevant. Why was it brought up then?


Er...I'm not sure.

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There are fascists who consider themselves humanitarians, like cannibals on a health kick, eating only vegetarians.

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RE: Cut and Run, the Only Brave Thing to Do - 11/28/2006 12:45:36 PM   
servantforuse


Posts: 6363
Joined: 3/8/2006
Status: offline 		Yea, we should all listen to that lard ass Michael Moore. He really is an expert on foreign policy. He's really not biased in the liberal pap he spews out....

(in reply to meatcleaver)
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RE: Cut and Run, the Only Brave Thing to Do - 11/28/2006 12:54:48 PM   
LordODiscipline


Posts: 995
Joined: 6/28/2004
Status: offline 		Because - - -
 
Just like all of Michael Moore's statements, films, and publications it is (indeed) irrelevant to the issues and to reality....
 
And, people pick up on it and run as though it were 'profound' because it is saying what they believe -
 
But, he is saying things which are not in alignment with reality - just glossed over to appear they are.
 
Michael Moore - Soap Operatic author for all of the trailer park politicans and thinkers in America
 
~J

quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth

Agreed, making the entire comparison irrelevant. Why was it brought up then?


Er...I'm not sure.


_____________________________

"Anyone who thinks they're important is usually just a pompous moron who can't deal with his or her own pathetic insignificance and the fact that what they do is meaningless and inconsequential."
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(in reply to meatcleaver)
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RE: Cut and Run, the Only Brave Thing to Do - 11/28/2006 1:08:43 PM   
RiotGirl


Posts: 3149
Status: offline 		i have an insanely stupid question.. please feel free to pat me on the head and send me on my way.....

but how long is everyone here going to go on and on and on about the same political BS? 

(in reply to LordODiscipline)
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RE: Cut and Run, the Only Brave Thing to Do - 11/28/2006 1:11:20 PM   
Chaingang


Posts: 1727
Joined: 10/24/2005
Status: offline 		RiotGirl:

The very fact that you consider it a non-issue and irrelevant to your life is the problem itself.

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"Everything flows, nothing stands still." (Πάντα ῥεῖ καὶ οὐδὲν μένει) - Heraclitus

(in reply to RiotGirl)
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RE: Cut and Run, the Only Brave Thing to Do - 11/28/2006 1:17:14 PM   
stef


Posts: 10215
Joined: 1/26/2004
Status: offline 		She didn't say it was a non-issue or irrelevent to her life.  Maybe she's just tired of seeing psuedo-intellectual political masturbation on a BDSM forum?  She's probably not alone in that regard.

~stef

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Welcome to PoliticSpace! If you came here expecting meaningful BDSM discussions, boy are you in the wrong place.

"Hypocrisy has consequences"

(in reply to Chaingang)
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RE: Cut and Run, the Only Brave Thing to Do - 11/28/2006 1:18:19 PM   
RiotGirl


Posts: 3149
Status: offline 		Its not that i dont consider it an issue or the war in Iraq revelant to my life.  Hell, my brother just got back from Iraq not too long ago - and they're trying to send him BACK.  I'm pissed.  Sure its an issue.

But i dont get the constant chatter about it.  No one here on CM is going to change what's happening - nor - are they going to change anyone elses opionon.  Politics to me, just seems like a sure fire way to get everyone steamed up again - over, no less - the same issue.    To me, it seems to cause un needed drama on the boards that has no possible way of resolving.  Nor do i see the benefit of rehashing it.  Its akin to going round and round on the abortion debate between pro lifers and pro choice - atleast to me. 

feel free to clue me in.

That too Stef


< Message edited by RiotGirl -- 11/28/2006 1:22:00 PM >

(in reply to Chaingang)
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RE: Cut and Run, the Only Brave Thing to Do - 11/28/2006 1:26:58 PM   
Chaingang


Posts: 1727
Joined: 10/24/2005
Status: offline 		Don't like it, don't read it. Catch a clue...

_____________________________

"Everything flows, nothing stands still." (Πάντα ῥεῖ καὶ οὐδὲν μένει) - Heraclitus

(in reply to RiotGirl)
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RE: Cut and Run, the Only Brave Thing to Do - 11/28/2006 1:27:53 PM   
UtopianRanger


Posts: 3251
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: stef

She didn't say it was a non-issue or irrelevent to her life.  Maybe she's just tired of seeing psuedo-intellectual political masturbation on a BDSM forum?  She's probably not alone in that regard.

~stef


Well beautiful.... you and your pig tails always have the option to skip over these types of threads and read something else. Isn't that the advice you always give Michael from Georgia?




- R


_____________________________

"If you are going to win any battle, you have to do one thing. You have to make the mind run the body. Never let the body tell the mind what to do... the body is never tired if the mind is not tired."

-General George S. Patton


(in reply to stef)
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RE: Cut and Run, the Only Brave Thing to Do - 11/28/2006 1:37:40 PM   
slaveMastery


Posts: 77
Joined: 11/20/2006
Status: offline 		A number of thoughts:

When the US entered into WWII it took 3 1/2 years from start until finish of fighting. The American, British and French occupied zones were not even unified until March of '49 - which is another 4 years after fighting ended. The actual fighting (as in liberation of) in Iraq was done a lot quicker than the 3 1/2 years it took in Germany and Europe. Some might argue that the US never quite did leave Germany (and Japan which the US is still protecting today).

The majority of Germans (as in "the non-uniformed population") did consider the advent of the Allied Forces as an actual liberation and not an invasion or occupation against which a huge resistence arose which was deeply rooted inside the civilian population - as we see in Iraq. Further, the Iraqi resistence is fueled by self-perceived freedom fighters (i.e., the insurgents) and financed by plenty of oil- and drug-backed Al Qaida money. It is a lot easier to fight an enemy that actually is pulverized and forced to surrender their weapons - than to fight an enemy that miraculously disappears in with its weapons in the desert (remember thos tank and Republican Guard divisions West of Baghdad that were encircled and when the US troops moved, they found empty tanks, uniforms, but no people and no weapons....just guess what THOSE guys are doing today?)

Next, the Germans had already depleted significant resources and energy between '39 and '41 against a world alliance. Bush 41 was smart enough to forge a world alliance for Desert Storm. Bush 43 was smart enough to do so for the invasion of Afghanistan - but not smart enough to secure a broad enough support system of forces and nations for Iraq.

And lastly, Merc is making a tremendously good point - against Germany and Japan, there were no embedded media crews that film when a US soldier so much as spits in the street. Against Germany, there was a battle against a Moloch that in most bestialic manner executed a Holocaust and everyone was cool with doing what needed to be done to win a war (after all, it is called a WAR and not a political correctness competition). The US troops, lacking sufficient support from allies (or even from their military command in providing insufficient protective gear and armor) have no chance to win - they either lose a war and their lives, or they lose in public opinion and perception as being beasts for simply surviving.

Man - who put that soap box there?

(in reply to Chaingang)
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RE: Cut and Run, the Only Brave Thing to Do - 11/28/2006 1:42:19 PM   
RiotGirl


Posts: 3149
Status: offline
quote:

Well beautiful.... you and your pig tails always have the option to skip over these types of threads and read something else. Isn't that the advice you always give Michael from Georgia?


<grins>  that would be easier if there wasnt always a handful of political debates going on in the off topic section.  There's 4 of them now and at one time in the past polictical posts took up about 80% of this section.   

Can you all really not answer the question or explain to me why you all deem it important?  i've asked two questions that have been sidestepped so far.  The first one - i asked how long is it going to go on an the second one, i was much nicer and asked you all to clue me in on the importance of it.  So far, all i've gotten back was negatory responses. I did hear once that when one cant hold their stand on something they drop to insulting the person.  In yall's case it just seems to be dropping derogatory remarks..

Not that i'm bothered.. just mostly curious and amused  = )

p.s.  personally - i'm up for the mod's to create a whole new forum soley for political debate.  That would make everyone happy, eh?

(in reply to UtopianRanger)
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RE: Cut and Run, the Only Brave Thing to Do - 11/28/2006 1:48:08 PM   
LotusSong


Posts: 6334
Joined: 7/2/2006
From: Domme Emeritus
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth

The impotence of the US led forces is not due to ability, but in not being allowed to do the job necessary to achieve the same result as they did in WWII. It's the biggest reason I have for not supporting them and supporting the effort to bring them home.


WWII was about defeating an enemy. Iraq is or at least was, about liberating a country. You can hardly bomb a country you are supposed to be liberating back to the stoneage. Though we all know Iraq is not about liberating a country so much as liberating its oil.


You can't liberate stupid people :(

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I'm not your type.
I'm not inflatable.


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RE: Cut and Run, the Only Brave Thing to Do - 11/28/2006 1:50:19 PM   
LaTigresse


Posts: 26123
Joined: 1/15/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: stef

She didn't say it was a non-issue or irrelevent to her life.  Maybe she's just tired of seeing psuedo-intellectual political masturbation on a BDSM forum?  She's probably not alone in that regard.

~stef


No, she is not alone.

However they are good for an occasional laugh.

They also tell alot about the participants, most generally not in a flattering way.


_____________________________

My twisted, self deprecating, sense of humour, finds alot to laugh about, in your lack of one!

Just because you are well educated, articulate, and can use big, fancy words, properly........does not mean you are right!

(in reply to stef)
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RE: Cut and Run, the Only Brave Thing to Do - 11/28/2006 1:52:53 PM   
stef


Posts: 10215
Joined: 1/26/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: UtopianRanger

Well beautiful.... you and your pig tails always have the option to skip over these types of threads and read something else

You say that as though it's some sort of grand revelation.  Forgive me if I refrain from genuflecting.  If you bothered to look, you might have noticed that's usually exactly what I do with these threads.

quote:

Isn't that the advice you always give Michael from Georgia?

No, I usually tell him so stop whining and blaming the world for his problems.

~stef

_____________________________

Welcome to PoliticSpace! If you came here expecting meaningful BDSM discussions, boy are you in the wrong place.

"Hypocrisy has consequences"

(in reply to UtopianRanger)
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