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RE: The Influence Myth - 11/30/2006 10:52:18 AM   
missturbation


Posts: 8290
Joined: 2/12/2006
From: another planet
Status: offline 		Omg lol - before u point at our dick of a prime minister and he is a dick i think u need to look at ur own pathetic government and their failings.
We are in Iraq supposably supporting American troops - its laughable. If it wasnt for wanker bush we wudnt be there at all - think on that.

Edited to add - i think i just had a temper tantrum lol
Noone around to beat my ass for it either - whats a girl to do?

< Message edited by missturbation -- 11/30/2006 10:56:13 AM >

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RE: The Influence Myth - 11/30/2006 11:00:10 AM   
popeye1250


Posts: 18104
Joined: 1/27/2006
From: New Hampshire
Status: offline 		Actually I wish G.B. did have a little more influence in Washington.
Maybe they could get our people there to knock off this "World Policeman" nonsense and start focusing more on our own problems.
You don't need the Third Infantry to go after Bin Laden and al qeada! A few thousand cutthroats from the CIA and "other" agencies would do the job.
Just like Israel did going after those terrorists who were involved in the Olympics massacre get them one at a time night and day so they can't sleep.
If they have a general idea of where they are just poison all the water supply in that area.
As for "Nato" it is basically the U.S. and G.B.
I don't understand why we need a giant beauracracy to be allies.
I fail to see what good 50,000 paper pushers in the Netherlands do for "security" at "Nato Headquarters."
The same thing happenned after 9/11; "OOPS! Let's form another GIANT Beaucracy!"
But, with someone like Bush in Washington I doubt Great Britain (could) have any influence over him and his myopic "war on terror."
Good job Bush, look for Bin Laden in Iraq when everyone knows he's in Western Pakistan and leave our border with Mexico wide open!

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RE: The Influence Myth - 11/30/2006 12:00:06 PM   
caitlyn


Posts: 3473
Joined: 12/22/2004
Status: offline 		Congrats Popeye ... you made it through an entire thread, without trashing Yale or bitching about Mexicans.

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RE: The Influence Myth - 11/30/2006 12:25:50 PM   
NeedToUseYou


Posts: 2297
Joined: 12/24/2005
From: None of your business
Status: offline 		In regards to the Iraq war:

Great Britian: Don't blame us the US made us do it we aren't like them
US: How did we make you do it?
Great Britian: You proposed it and we agreed to do it.
US: Hrmmmmm. Ok, you mean we didn't threaten you in any way, and you agreed because you thought maybe there would be long term gain for your country, but now it's appearing not to be so. So, you start blaming the US for asking you and for your decision to join.

Great Britian: Yeah, it's your fault because you asked.

LOL, if we didn't force Great Britian to go to war, and they joined of free choice that would mean your leaders wanted to join in on it.

I mean what would of happened if GB refused....... nothing. It's not like we would have invaded, or imposed sanctions or anything at all.

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RE: The Influence Myth - 11/30/2006 1:05:11 PM   
NorthernGent


Posts: 8730
Joined: 7/10/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

Fellow Brits please read and digest. What many rational Brits knew all along is pretty much admitted here. Britain has no influence in the USA and as far as my reading of history, never has. So what the fuck are we doing in Iraq and Afghanistan? Why aren't we standing by the French and German view of the world which is far more rational and far less paranoid than Washington's view?

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,2-2478925,00.html

We all knew Blair sold us down the river. Now Parliament should impeach him as criminally negligent and as a war criminal.


I don't know MC. In theory, the US Government needs an ally to legitimise their policies. In practice, they tend to go it alone when push comes to shove:

Kyoto - walk out of the room.
Iraq - ignore the UN.
Nicaragua - walk out of The International Court of Justice.

I'm sure there are more examples.

You know what though, anyone who thought the US or British Governments were acting out of anything more than self-interest is at best misguided/misled.

Is our Government any better? I don't think so. They've fed us as many cock and bull stories. Look at the main document in the British dossier - the CIA told the British Government to withdraw it and the International Atomic Agency reported it as a forgery within minutes of seeing it. It was the main piece of 'evidence' so it had to stay.

Sometimes you have to hold your hands up and admit what's staring you in the face. That is, there is no one forcing the British Government to act as they do and they represent us, we vote for them. Thus, ultimately, we're up there with the best/worst of a bad bunch.

No use blaming everyone else. The US is the most visible country on the planet and as such is an easy target but if British people are that arsed about the situation maybe the solution is to get yourself out on a few anti-war marches in Britain? maybe even lobby the Government?

Our Government is in Iraq out of self-interest. You think Tony Blair and his Government gives a flying fuck about George Bush and his Government (and vice versa)?

The French and German view? Their Governments are merely chasing their priorities in a different arena - both are busy forging links with China (with their appalling human rights record).




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RE: The Influence Myth - 11/30/2006 1:12:28 PM   
philosophy


Posts: 5284
Joined: 2/15/2004
Status: offline 		.......i blame the Mexicans who went to Yale................
.......where's Yale?

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RE: The Influence Myth - 11/30/2006 1:16:06 PM   
slaveMastery


Posts: 77
Joined: 11/20/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: sleazy

I am not convinced that the French and Germans are any less paranoid or protectionist in their outlook, in fact they are far more insular, ignore the world and it will ignore us, not a good philosphy at all in my book.



Sounds very odd coming from a citizen of the UK - a nation that waited 22 years to join the EU and to date has not joined the EMU.

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RE: The Influence Myth - 11/30/2006 1:24:23 PM   
slaveMastery


Posts: 77
Joined: 11/20/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent

The French and German view? Their Governments are merely chasing their priorities in a different arena - both are busy forging links with China (with their appalling human rights record).



WOW...if only the US had thought of that!

Oh wait, Clinton did that in October of 2000 when signing the China trade bill. Sheesh, those wicked Germans and French for forging links with such an appalling nation...

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RE: The Influence Myth - 11/30/2006 1:27:52 PM   
NorthernGent


Posts: 8730
Joined: 7/10/2006
Status: offline 		So, what are we saying here? They're all at it?

< Message edited by NorthernGent -- 11/30/2006 1:28:03 PM >

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Sooner or later, the man who wins is the man who thinks he can.

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RE: The Influence Myth - 11/30/2006 1:48:34 PM   
seeksfemslave


Posts: 4011
Joined: 6/16/2006
Status: offline 		Great thinkers thoughout the ages have often put forward the idea that the world is perfectable if only what they believe was put into practice. This attitude is clearly visible on collar me and yet when old George W goes and gets rid of a homicidal vicious tyrant, instead of giving George his due the great thinkers of collar me start worrying about China, whether that virtually useless entity the UN is listened to or pointing out that most nations are following their own self interest.

I'm beginning to wonder if you are such great thinkers after all !!

< Message edited by seeksfemslave -- 11/30/2006 1:50:10 PM >

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RE: The Influence Myth - 11/30/2006 2:19:45 PM   
meatcleaver


Posts: 9030
Joined: 3/13/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent


No use blaming everyone else. The US is the most visible country on the planet and as such is an easy target but if British people are that arsed about the situation maybe the solution is to get yourself out on a few anti-war marches in Britain? maybe even lobby the Government?



Don't people read? There is nowhere on this thread I've criticized the US. I've been criticizing the British!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

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RE: The Influence Myth - 11/30/2006 2:21:49 PM   
meatcleaver


Posts: 9030
Joined: 3/13/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent

The French and German view? Their Governments are merely chasing their priorities in a different arena - both are busy forging links with China (with their appalling human rights record).



What are you proposing, invading China? Haven't you been criticizing the US for invading Iraq who just happened to have an apalling human rights record?

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RE: The Influence Myth - 11/30/2006 2:33:49 PM   
slaveMastery


Posts: 77
Joined: 11/20/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: seeksfemslave

...yet when old George W goes and gets rid of a homicidal vicious tyrant, instead of giving George his due the great thinkers of collar me start worrying about China, whether that virtually useless entity the UN is listened to or pointing out that most nations are following their own self interest.

I'm beginning to wonder if you are such great thinkers after all !!



If George W. -or any other 'benefactor' of the unfree world- wants to go ahead and rid this planet of homicidal tyrants on his own dime, he can be my guest. But financing his "King George" delusions of grandeur with my tax dollars without bothering to gather an international alliance like his father did with Desert Storm (and I am not talking about approval from the UN, which admittedly has a utilitarian value of tits on a fish)...now that is something that does not make me very happy. I know - how very self-serving of me, but until you -or anyone else non-US tax paying- are willing to make a personal monthly paycheck-deducted contribution to these war efforts, I reserve my rights for ripping George W. all freaking day long.

If that is something that, in your opinion, makes me (or any other American) less of a great thinker, then I will just have to learn and live with your lowly opinion of my thinking abilities.

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RE: The Influence Myth - 11/30/2006 2:43:23 PM   
meatcleaver


Posts: 9030
Joined: 3/13/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: slaveMastery

But financing his "King George" delusions of grandeur with my tax dollars without bothering to gather an international alliance like his father did with Desert Storm (and I am not talking about approval from the UN, which admittedly has a utilitarian value of tits on a fish)...now that is something that does not make me very happy. I know - how very self-serving of me, but until you -or anyone else non-US tax paying- are willing to make a personal monthly paycheck-deducted contribution to these war efforts, I reserve my rights for ripping George W. all freaking day long.


I don't think the idea was that anyone but the US tax payer should gain from the invasion of Iraq but George fucked up and it looks like the biggest winners are Iran instead.

As for King George's delusions, he never gained a cent out of the colonies, it was the other way round. The colonies drained his coffers and the best thing that ever happened to him was their independence.

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RE: The Influence Myth - 11/30/2006 2:47:22 PM   
slaveMastery


Posts: 77
Joined: 11/20/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

As for King George's delusions, he never gained a cent out of the colonies, it was the other way round. The colonies drained his coffers and the best thing that ever happened to him was their independence.


Thank you for enlightening my ignorance on (the actual) King George and that I need to be more concise in my writings!

I actually alluded to (or attempted to) George W.'s "King George delusion" of being beyond the job and task assigned to him by his voters.

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RE: The Influence Myth - 11/30/2006 2:48:54 PM   
meatcleaver


Posts: 9030
Joined: 3/13/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: slaveMastery

Thank you for enlightening my ignorance on (the actual) King George and that I need to be more concise in my writings!

I actually alluded to (or attempted to) George W.'s "King George delusion" of being beyond the job and task assigned to him by his voters.


My ignorance.

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RE: The Influence Myth - 11/30/2006 3:05:04 PM   
NorthernGent


Posts: 8730
Joined: 7/10/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent


No use blaming everyone else. The US is the most visible country on the planet and as such is an easy target but if British people are that arsed about the situation maybe the solution is to get yourself out on a few anti-war marches in Britain? maybe even lobby the Government?



Don't people read? There is nowhere on this thread I've criticized the US. I've been criticizing the British!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


Your inference was/is that somehow the British Government is missing the boat by aligning itself with the US Government rather than the French and German versions. My point was/is that it doesn't really matter as they're all at it. No use in looking to any other country other than our own. If we can't help ourselves then what are the French and Germans going to do for us?

It's up to us to sort out our own Government.




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I have the courage to be a coward - but not beyond my limits.

Sooner or later, the man who wins is the man who thinks he can.

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Profile   Post #: 37
RE: The Influence Myth - 11/30/2006 3:13:09 PM   
meatcleaver


Posts: 9030
Joined: 3/13/2006
Status: offline 		The inference was we should be looking after our own interests which are in line with Germany and France, being a member of the EU and all. Britain has thrown away valuable influence in Europe for no influence in Washington. Since no country in Europe can look after its own interests without aliances, looking after ones own interest is seeking out aliances that compliment ones interests and not damage them.

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RE: The Influence Myth - 11/30/2006 3:20:52 PM   
slaveMastery


Posts: 77
Joined: 11/20/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

The inference was we should be looking after our own interests which are in line with Germany and France, being a member of the EU and all. Britain has thrown away valuable influence in Europe for no influence in Washington. Since no country in Europe can look after its own interests without aliances, looking after ones own interest is seeking out aliances that compliment ones interests and not damage them.


The British strategy seems (please correct me if I am mistaken on this) to have worked out better in the past when leaders like Reagan and Thatcher stood at the helm. Reagan understood the importance of global allies and relations much more clearly than Bush 43, whereas Thatcher had the coconut-sized balls that tower over Blair's raisins.

Bush/Cheney/Rumsfeld maneuvered themselves into an isolationist cul-de-sac by kicking their allies in the cojones wherever they stood (throwing France and Germany in with North Korea and Lybia was absolutely brilliant, Rummy!) - which now seems to be backfiring on the British loyalty to their US 'big brother'. Having bet on the European horse earlier and with more enthusiasm seems, in retrospective, to have been the choice with a much better ROI.

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RE: The Influence Myth - 11/30/2006 5:49:35 PM   
mgdartist


Posts: 328
Joined: 5/13/2006
From: irving tx
Status: offline 		*yawn*....it's finally over, although dozing twice, i have reached the end, and may now return to sweet apathy and a nap. But first I'll share a diatribe below of how relevant and important i believe GB's amount of total influence with the U.S. is to either them, us, or in fact any entity or person worldwide:

(in reply to slaveMastery)
Profile   Post #: 40
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