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RE: A sense of "Entitlement?" - 12/3/2006 2:12:15 AM

meatcleaver

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quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent

At university, you do your own primary research (i.e. source evidence) and form your own conclusions. In my opinion, the real value of universities is in teaching independent thinking.

It's strange how just about the majority of politicians have been to university so much so it seems a requirement nowadays, yet independent thinking in politics must be at an all time low.

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Post #: 41

RE: A sense of "Entitlement?" - 12/3/2006 2:25:31 AM

NorthernGent

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quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent

At university, you do your own primary research (i.e. source evidence) and form your own conclusions. In my opinion, the real value of universities is in teaching independent thinking.

It's strange how just about the majority of politicians have been to university so much so it seems a requirement nowadays, yet independent thinking in politics must be at an all time low.

I don't think politicians lack independent thought. They lack moral fibre.

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Sooner or later, the man who wins is the man who thinks he can.

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Post #: 42

RE: A sense of "Entitlement?" - 12/3/2006 3:09:35 AM

meatcleaver

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Edited: totally fucked up post.

< Message edited by meatcleaver -- 12/3/2006 3:10:52 AM >

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Post #: 43

RE: A sense of "Entitlement?" - 12/3/2006 3:14:24 AM

meatcleaver

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quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent

quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent

At university, you do your own primary research (i.e. source evidence) and form your own conclusions. In my opinion, the real value of universities is in teaching independent thinking.

It's strange how just about the majority of politicians have been to university so much so it seems a requirement nowadays, yet independent thinking in politics must be at an all time low.

I don't think politicians lack independent thought. They lack moral fibre.

If politicians naturally lack moral fibre they are hardly likely to attain moral fibre in the rarefied air of university and I would argue, more likely to gain a little moral fibre through other walks of life. Maybe it is this need to be a graduate to be a politician which has edged out all the mavericks in Parliament that were worth listening to.

_____________________________

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Post #: 44

RE: A sense of "Entitlement?" - 12/3/2006 3:49:20 AM

seeksfemslave

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Both Northerngent and Philosophy are constantly asking for a source to verify opinions offered in posts. Isn't that consistant with my point that only if a reference can be found for a point of view can it be true. Where's the creative thinking there ?

Also NG with regard to your point about the sexual liberation of undergraduates, in fact, the lower down the social scale you are the earlier you are likely to start sowing your oats. A source reference for that opinion may be found in my textbook The Errors and Gaffes Disseminated by Rigid Left Wing Thinkers.

With regard to the hypocracy / lack of moral fibre of politicians, I dont believe they much differ from the general population in that respect, its just that they are subject to a level of scrutiny that most of us don't experience and many couldn't survive.

< Message edited by seeksfemslave -- 12/3/2006 3:56:27 AM >

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Post #: 45

RE: A sense of "Entitlement?" - 12/3/2006 4:01:40 AM

meatcleaver

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Aah The educated classes always like to claim reforms and social progress to be things initiated by them. I always remember Tariq Ali claiming that if it wasn't for his generation of students social progress would have been stunted, yet look who we have in power, his generation of students and they are very very conservative and reactionary. He also made the claim if it wasn't for his generation of student, the miners wouldn't have been able to strike and protest. What a load of bollocks! I always remember my friend's father who was a miner, as my father was, watching the news in 68 and seeing Tariq Ali and Jack Straw on their pathetic sit-ins and saying 'look at the filth. My generation would have killed for the privelege of a good education' and they are wasting theirs and they were and they did. Look at the shite we have in power.

< Message edited by meatcleaver -- 12/3/2006 4:02:55 AM >

_____________________________

There are fascists who consider themselves humanitarians, like cannibals on a health kick, eating only vegetarians.

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Post #: 46

RE: A sense of "Entitlement?" - 12/3/2006 4:15:49 AM

seeksfemslave

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I think it probably IS true that most reforms are initiated by the "educated" or those who occupy the higher positions in the Social Strata. The reason for this is that such people deal very ruthlessly, certainly in the past in the UK, when the plebs. like me try to change things.

I was just listening to a programme about Riots that occured in the UK in the late 19th early 20th century. George B Shaw was involved trying to make a society with a fairer income distribution.The police and Army in particular killed quite a few people. Cant recall where the riots took place though.

(in reply to meatcleaver)

Post #: 47

RE: A sense of "Entitlement?" - 12/3/2006 8:05:17 AM

juliaoceania

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quote:

ORIGINAL: seeksfemslave

Both Northerngent and Philosophy are constantly asking for a source to verify opinions offered in posts. Isn't that consistant with my point that only if a reference can be found for a point of view can it be true. Where's the creative thinking there ?

Personally speaking I do not give much weight to opinions that are not well thought out and well researched. A well researched opinion takes information from a wide array of sources and then thinks critically about what is known on the subject.

One thing a person does at the four year college level in the USA is to write many papers with a research question that they are endeavoring to answer. They then have to get sometimes up to 20 different sources of information to answer that question.A person must present different perspectives in order to do this, and if you find one opinion that is more compelling then the rest a person should argue it within the paper. Not everyone can do this coherently or cohesively, and the people on this thread that do not see the value of it or see the intellect that goes into doing such puzzle me.

There are many things in the world I am not good at, but I am a fairly decent researcher, and I think critically about the information that I take in. I cannot sing, I cannot dance well, I cannot ski, I cannot draw, but I can write well enough and I am a crack research hound. What I am reading on this thread is fairly dismissive of people that worked hard to achieve scholastically, and I would wonder what you all tell your own children... do you tell them college is not important? They do not need a higher education? Only chumps do well in school? I do not tell my son that.

Ownedgirlie stated earlier that her mind has been opening to new concepts because of the education that she is getting. I had the same experience when I went back at 30, and to be honest with you, I do not know why people would want to be insulting to those who prize education. I want to be a professor when I am finished, and to be honest it saddens me that there is so little respect for those who are talented with their minds and use them, as if this is something to be ashamed of or something.

And BTW, veterans get no more respect from me than the person who went to college, both are human beings, both did something with their lives.... one path is not superior to another. Even the military prizes people with educations and promotes them to become officers, and there is a reason why.

< Message edited by juliaoceania -- 12/3/2006 8:07:39 AM >

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Post #: 48

RE: A sense of "Entitlement?" - 12/3/2006 10:20:53 AM

popeye1250

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quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent

quote:

ORIGINAL: popeye1250

Last night I was out in the neighborhood for my nightly walk when I ran into the manager of my bank.
I don't know what it is about me but for some reason people just want to tell me their problems like I'm their "father confessor" or something.
Well she tells me that she promoted this lady that I know at the bank to management.
I tell her that that's a good thing and that the lady deserves it and that I always liked her and found her very helpfull and knowledgable whenever I conducted my business there.
This promotion will put this lady on the path to "upper management" and she'll get her own branch of one of the banks local offices.
"Great, good for her" I say.
So then, she tells me about another lady at the bank who I also know who felt that she should have gotten the promotion because she had a degree and the other lady who got the promotion didn't.
They both had about the same amount of time there, about 4 years I think she said.
Turns out that when this lady found out that the other lady without a degree got promoted into management she stormed into the managers office and made a big fuss about it and was yelling at the manager for promoting the other lady without a degree over her!
(Evidently they don't teach "manners" in colleges and universities these days.)
So, after hearing all this I told the manager lady; "Gee, it looks like you chose the right person for the job!"
Evidently this bank promotes from within. (It's a large regional bank)
My question is why should someone who has a degree feel that they are more "entitled" to a promotion than someone who doesn't?
The person here with the degree acted totally childish and also very *rudely* during this whole situation.
The manager felt, and rightly so that the other woman was better qualified to be kicked up into management even though she didn't have a degree.
Your thoughts please.

From personal experience, university teaches you to think for yourself. It is a different type of learning/schooling. Prior to university, my schooling was pretty much learning about experts' thoughts on a subject. At university, you do your own primary research (i.e. source evidence) and form your own conclusions. In my opinion, the real value of universities is in teaching independent thinking.

Also, you have 3 or 4 years with hundreds/thousands of girls all away from home for the first time and basically running wild. If you do a bit of extra work to earn a few quid then you can be out clubbing 5 nights out of 7 (in a club full of 18/19 years old girls).

In conclusion, you have to be happy with that Popeye. For those who didn't experience it then unlucky.

Gent, I think I learned more in the military than I did in college.
It was certainly a much more interesting experience for sure.
I remember interviewing for that insurance job.
The lady said something to the affect of; "Oh, you can forget what you learned at ,............, we'll teach you our way."
And she was right, I never used anything that I learned in college on that job.
She was more interested in hearing about my military experiences.
That's why I got the job, not because I had a degree.
I wanted to get a degree in Nursing but I am a disabled veteran and the Veteran's Administration refused it because the nature of that job "could further injure or agravate injuries to the veteran."
So, I have a degree that I never really used and wasn't neccessary to get the jobs that I had.
A Nursing degree would have been much more useful to me in my opinion.

(in reply to NorthernGent)

Post #: 49

RE: A sense of "Entitlement?" - 12/3/2006 10:34:50 AM

NorthernGent

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Sounds fair enough Popeye. What works for one doesn't work for another. For clarity, it appears that you're saying you did the wrong degree (as opposed to saying you don't see value in a degree)?

In terms of the experience and comparison with the military, I found being an 18-21 years old learning about a subject I loved during the day and spending my nights in clubs full of young girls an immensely enjoyable experience. Now, I'm weighing this up and I'm not getting the same sense of excitement thinking about the military and spending my days in dorms with a load of men and then spending the rest of my time on "manoeuvres" crawling around in the shit (again exclusively with men).

From personal experience, my whole attitude to life and understanding of the world changed markedly as a result of a university education. I think the phrase "horses for courses" applies on this subject.

< Message edited by NorthernGent -- 12/3/2006 10:58:40 AM >

_____________________________

I have the courage to be a coward - but not beyond my limits.

Sooner or later, the man who wins is the man who thinks he can.

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Post #: 50

RE: A sense of "Entitlement?" - 12/3/2006 10:37:41 AM

RiotGirl

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College isnt about what you learn.. its about the piece of paper. As much as it sucks, that piece of paper matters in the right circles in the real world. Some places it doesnt.. but in others you wont get anywhere with out it. It lends......... credibility.

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Post #: 51

RE: A sense of "Entitlement?" - 12/3/2006 10:39:41 AM

popeye1250

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quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

quote:

ORIGINAL: seeksfemslave

Both Northerngent and Philosophy are constantly asking for a source to verify opinions offered in posts. Isn't that consistant with my point that only if a reference can be found for a point of view can it be true. Where's the creative thinking there ?

Personally speaking I do not give much weight to opinions that are not well thought out and well researched. A well researched opinion takes information from a wide array of sources and then thinks critically about what is known on the subject.

One thing a person does at the four year college level in the USA is to write many papers with a research question that they are endeavoring to answer. They then have to get sometimes up to 20 different sources of information to answer that question.A person must present different perspectives in order to do this, and if you find one opinion that is more compelling then the rest a person should argue it within the paper. Not everyone can do this coherently or cohesively, and the people on this thread that do not see the value of it or see the intellect that goes into doing such puzzle me.

There are many things in the world I am not good at, but I am a fairly decent researcher, and I think critically about the information that I take in. I cannot sing, I cannot dance well, I cannot ski, I cannot draw, but I can write well enough and I am a crack research hound. What I am reading on this thread is fairly dismissive of people that worked hard to achieve scholastically, and I would wonder what you all tell your own children... do you tell them college is not important? They do not need a higher education? Only chumps do well in school? I do not tell my son that.

Ownedgirlie stated earlier that her mind has been opening to new concepts because of the education that she is getting. I had the same experience when I went back at 30, and to be honest with you, I do not know why people would want to be insulting to those who prize education. I want to be a professor when I am finished, and to be honest it saddens me that there is so little respect for those who are talented with their minds and use them, as if this is something to be ashamed of or something.

And BTW, veterans get no more respect from me than the person who went to college, both are human beings, both did something with their lives.... one path is not superior to another. Even the military prizes people with educations and promotes them to become officers, and there is a reason why.

Julia, anyone can do research that refutes anything that someone else says.
It's like statistics, you can make them say anything you want them to say.
And in most instances I'd be quoting second or third-hand information.
I had the opportunity to read U.S. State Dept "reports" on occaision in the military and they sounded just like college or university research papers.
It was like whoever authored them never (got out) of college.
And I assume they were all written from the comfort of an air-conditioned office somewhere and not in the field.
I was talking to a Security Officer for a large private security company once and he told me they don't even pay attention to the U.S. State Dept for pertinent information but had their own sources.
"Research" in a lot of areas is someone else's opinion and if you have two people submit reports you'll you'll just get two different opinions in many cases.

(in reply to juliaoceania)

Post #: 52

RE: A sense of "Entitlement?" - 12/3/2006 10:52:19 AM

juliaoceania

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No, not anyone can research a compile their research popeye... I have read many many papers from other students that I would have given a big huge F had I been the professor. I have helped others reorganize their papers in some sort of semblance of coherency. Writing a well thought out paper that flows well, presents a logical argument, is sourced and cited correctly and is excellent is something that the vast majority of college students cannot do until they are taught. Even then most people do not get As on their papers without a little help. I know as someone that tutored people and I also consistently scored at the top of my classes. You are rather dismissive of this skill.. and it is a skill that employers do value.

Yes, the state department uses college graduates, look at Condi Rice, I believe she is a professor of international relations or something like that. Many military people have college educations, in fact to become a commissioned officer I believe you have to have a degree if I am not mistaken about that. Privately held companies that do not rely on the state dept. for their information hire other people with college educations to do such work.

Again popeye, I will ask, if you have kids do you tell them not to go to college, that it is a huge waste of effort and time? I graduated with high honors from university, it is something to be proud of, why insult those who did go, write well, are skilled at what they do? Why be insulting about it?

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

(in reply to popeye1250)

Post #: 53

RE: A sense of "Entitlement?" - 12/3/2006 11:14:55 AM

NorthernGent

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quote:

ORIGINAL: RiotGirl

College isnt about what you learn.. its about the piece of paper. As much as it sucks, that piece of paper matters in the right circles in the real world. Some places it doesnt.. but in others you wont get anywhere with out it. It lends......... credibility.

A degree most certainly lends credibility. In England, it's getting to the point where if you don't have a degree then you're struggling in certain professions.

Having said this, I don't agree with your point that university is not about what you learn. Genuinely, the three years I spent at university were valuable in terms of my education to date. These were the years when I began to understand such things as the power of media and propaganda, international relations and the role and intentions of the establishment in society. For me, it was a major step in terms of self-examination as my mind opened up to possibilities I hadn't considered.

Ultimately though, like anything in life, it is the all-round package that counts. In terms of self-development and self-examination, the three years at university is merely a cog in the wheel and simply a part of the learning process. So, to sum up, a university education is not the be all and end all but it certainly helps to open up your mind - particularly as the driving theme at university is independent thought.

_____________________________

I have the courage to be a coward - but not beyond my limits.

Sooner or later, the man who wins is the man who thinks he can.

(in reply to RiotGirl)

Post #: 54

RE: A sense of "Entitlement?" - 12/3/2006 11:31:31 AM

seeksfemslave

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Juliaoceania said...
Personally speaking I do not give much weight to opinions that are not well thought out and well researched. A well researched opinion takes information from a wide array of sources and then thinks critically about what is known on the subject.

Popeye has put his finger on the weakness of that argument MsJ and it is this....you are talking about opinions. For every subject about which an opinion may be expressed there are always many opinions may that may be offered. When facts dont intrude then any opinion is as valid as another. For instance see the differences of opinion that exist here about the current situation in Iraq. If you were discussing how a mains transformer works, say one that would transform 110 volts (USA) to 240 volts (UK) then there is no room for opinion. You either know or you dont.

With regard to NGs point about learning to think critically at University then surely someone who can coach himself to think analytically and critically has a superior intellect. Of course they lack a piece of paper clarifying this. It is a fact that many if not most graduates of 3rd level education in the UK get jobs requiring funding by the taxpayer. Why is that if their minds have been expanded as much as some of you graduates appear to believe? Is it just that they recognise a soft option when they see one ? Thats why Blair's current education policy will soon hit the buffers in my opinion!

< Message edited by seeksfemslave -- 12/3/2006 11:43:22 AM >

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Post #: 55

RE: A sense of "Entitlement?" - 12/3/2006 11:38:18 AM

juliaoceania

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From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
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If you go to the doctor to get a diagnosis, the doctor offers an opinion based upon his education, experience, and research... I suppose we should not go to the doctor and get an opinion about what is making us sick

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

(in reply to seeksfemslave)

Post #: 56

RE: A sense of "Entitlement?" - 12/3/2006 11:45:02 AM

meatcleaver

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quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

If you go to the doctor to get a diagnosis, the doctor offers an opinion based upon his education, experience, and research... I suppose we should not go to the doctor and get an opinion about what is making us sick

Usually I hope for a correct diagnosis and if the doctor can't make a correct diagnosis I hope they are of the opinion I need to see a specialist.

_____________________________

There are fascists who consider themselves humanitarians, like cannibals on a health kick, eating only vegetarians.

(in reply to juliaoceania)

Post #: 57

RE: A sense of "Entitlement?" - 12/3/2006 11:53:16 AM

seeksfemslave

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MsJ in the not distant past "educated" doctors have held opinions that are just plain wrong.

One example was cutting great lumps out of women who suffered Breast Cancer, oddly enough a process called Lumpectomy. I well remember watching a debate between the doctors who cut Nelson Rockefeller's wife nearly in two and statisticians whose data showed that the outcome was no better then just taking out the growths.
The doctors became apoplectic with rage when their methods were challenged. I believe Lumpectomy is not practised anything like as often as it used to be.

Many doctors' diagnoses are little more that trial and error guesses, as are motor mechanics !

You may have read of the Russian, in London, who was poisoned by Polonium 210. Well the first guess was that Thallium was the poison and an "expert" no doubt with a medical degree trundled forward to explain how all the symptoms being presented were consistant with Thallium poisoning. He was wrong !

< Message edited by seeksfemslave -- 12/3/2006 12:00:22 PM >

(in reply to juliaoceania)

Post #: 58

RE: A sense of "Entitlement?" - 12/3/2006 12:23:50 PM

popeye1250

Posts: 18104
Joined: 1/27/2006
From: New Hampshire
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quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

No, not anyone can research a compile their research popeye... I have read many many papers from other students that I would have given a big huge F had I been the professor. I have helped others reorganize their papers in some sort of semblance of coherency. Writing a well thought out paper that flows well, presents a logical argument, is sourced and cited correctly and is excellent is something that the vast majority of college students cannot do until they are taught. Even then most people do not get As on their papers without a little help. I know as someone that tutored people and I also consistently scored at the top of my classes. You are rather dismissive of this skill.. and it is a skill that employers do value.

Yes, the state department uses college graduates, look at Condi Rice, I believe she is a professor of international relations or something like that. Many military people have college educations, in fact to become a commissioned officer I believe you have to have a degree if I am not mistaken about that. Privately held companies that do not rely on the state dept. for their information hire other people with college educations to do such work.

Again popeye, I will ask, if you have kids do you tell them not to go to college, that it is a huge waste of effort and time? I graduated with high honors from university, it is something to be proud of, why insult those who did go, write well, are skilled at what they do? Why be insulting about it?

Julia, no I wouldn't tell a young person not to go to college if that's what they wanted to do.
But there are a lot of other things to do in life as well that are rewarding.
We all know people who have done very well on their own.
I did my share of research papers in college and I could make them say whatever I wanted pretty much. I was a consistant "B" student and I found them boring to do.
Like I said I never really used my degree in the fields I was in and didn't get the jobs I got because I had a degree. When you get a job in Industry or Business you're going to be taught "their way" right when you start.
Also a lot of things in business and management that are taught in college were adapted from the military especially after WW2.
Oh, and how about all those football players who got "Athletic Scholorships", now there's some real intellectual heavyweights!
I've had the pleasure to work with more than a few of those guys and they wouldn't have any idea how to do a research paper.("Oh, Coach, can you have a "little talk" with my Science Professor?")
All they talked about was football and you'd be scratching your head if someone told you that those guys had degrees! lol
Think Al Bundy with a degree!
Now, degrees in Medicine, Engineering, Science and things like that are the way to go in my opinion.
Law degrees used to be good but there's too many of them these days and it's getting tough to make a living.
Like I said, if I'd had my druthers I'd have gone to Nursing school rather than going to "B" school but the V.A. wouldn't let me.
Julia, why all your hostility towards veterans? They aren't the enemy.

(in reply to juliaoceania)

Post #: 59

RE: A sense of "Entitlement?" - 12/3/2006 12:55:46 PM

ChiCouple

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I never have made a post nor read many...yet this one caught my attention.

Everyone has their own path and journey to take in this walk through life. It's what we learn and choose to do with those experiences which seperate one person from the next. Many people have gone to college to kill 4 years of time or more and come away with nothing more than what was required learning to graduate as well as an extensive knowledge of partying and the female/male anatomy.

Others have chosen the military where in the process they might be shown a career or pick up knowledge or a skill that will become their path in the future. However, those in the military have given up rights, have to listen and obey commands and for many are nothing more than order takers whom in the process might end up geting killed or suffering a life altering disability for something in which they hold no personal belief or conviction.

There is nothing wrong with an arguement. Unfortunately many are unable to process relevant information which might contrast to their personal views...I pity these individuals.

This site I have found all to often leads or caters to this type of belief system. (stereotyping now) Many people on this site think by calling themselves a dominant gives them permission to ignore the needs of the sub as well as the "right" to ignore or even try to correct the horrible personal flaws that they personally posess. They are totally disconnected from anything "real" and immerse themselves into this lifestyle,sci-fi,SCA or some other imaginary crap because the real world and real woman are just to difficult to deal with.

Maybe a little harsh....but had to be said. Aye,aye, captain lower telescope and take her down!

Out.

D.G.

p.s. Jesus please protect me from your followers

(in reply to seeksfemslave)

Post #: 60

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