Who pays and retains? (Full Version)

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BeautifulRacket -> Who pays and retains? (12/3/2006 9:36:28 PM)

Let's say you and a male* sub/slave are starting what's hopefully a LTR, and neither of you have a lot of the toys and tools that you'd like to use together. We'll also assume that both of you are financially stable, though neither have an extraordinary amount of discretionary income, and he's fairly traditional in the sense that he believes men should pay more for dates and such.

Who do you expect to pay for the majority of relationship-related expenses, like dates? What about newly-purchased toys, some of which could be used by you with others (if you have multiple partners or the relationship didn't work out), and others that are specific to him and you (e.g. dildos that fit your harness, but couldn't be shared)? How about toys/tools you ask him to make for you, but with the intention of using them together?

Does whomever pays for the new items that can be used with other partners keep them if the relationship doesn't work out, or do you keep them because you're the dominant partner?

To try to be clear, I'm just curious about how others might deal with these issues, and realize you might take it on a case-by-case basis (if so, perhaps you could share examples or your criteria for determining how it'll work).

Subs are welcome to chime in from their perspective, too, of course.

*I'm using 'male' for simplicity here, but feel free to use whatever genders work for you; I'm certainly interested in how F/f and other D/s couples handle these things as well. [image]http://www.collarchat.com/upfiles/smiley/smile.gif[/image]



Najakcharmer -> RE: Who pays and retains? (12/3/2006 9:41:26 PM)

Who pays for them keeps them, except for toys that I'd consider unsafe to re-use on other people, which would stay with the sub they got used on.  If it breaks the skin or gets exposed to body fluids or orifices, it's a one-person toy.

I buy and own all the toys I'm currently using, but I generally prefer that subs bring some of their own toys as well, specifically the toys I would not want to keep in my toybag for general use on more than one person. 



Lordandmaster -> RE: Who pays and retains? (12/3/2006 10:44:59 PM)

I adhere to the fine tradition of burning them.

quote:

ORIGINAL: BeautifulRacket

Does whomever pays for the new items that can be used with other partners keep them if the relationship doesn't work out, or do you keep them because you're the dominant partner?



Lady Alaria -> RE: Who pays and retains? (12/4/2006 2:17:34 AM)

I think it becomes a case of whatever you want.

If you feel that equanimity is in order, do that.

If you want to keep the toys, and he has no issue with it, keep them.

My general take on things is that if it's a fairly light or new relationship with an uncertain future, then whoever buys, keeps, should it be an egalitarian relationship. If it's a longer, and more solid relationship, hopefully communication will work this out.

But D/s relationships do not need to be egalitarian. They don't have to be fair. What the Dom/me says, goes, barring limits. And this can be based on what the Dom/me feels is fair, or upon their whims. So long as you are both happy and fulfilled, it works.

As to the man paying more...well, sure, if he makes more. If the salaries are pretty similar though, then this is just residue of patriarchal nonsense. Unless the romance of the idea turns your perspective cranks, for whatever reason, then it's consensual kink. [:D]



onmykneesb4You -> RE: Who pays and retains? (12/4/2006 2:32:44 AM)

Just recently had gone through this, for the most part i have always bought what i felt i would like used on me be it good or bad, i feel subs should have their own toys, so what i bought  i kept, what She bought She kept with some minor exceptions, asking for this particular toy or flogger. Even in divorce one has to split the toys. I guess the big question comes down to items such as maybe ten's unit's or violet wands not saying a good quality flogger wont run in the 100's, but the higher cost toys when 2 people chip in for that toy, that to me is the real question of who gets it in the end.



MstrssPassion -> RE: Who pays and retains? (12/4/2006 4:04:39 AM)

there is something to be said about those who are just entering relationships & are already concerned with who gets what when/if it fails





thetammyjo -> RE: Who pays and retains? (12/4/2006 4:33:28 AM)

(everything I say below assumes that you are in an established relationship, that your finances are not combined, and that neither of you is far wealthier than the other; I'm using "top" and "bottom" here to be catch all terms)

In general, whose ever idea it was to go out and spend money (movie, dinner, etc) once the relationship is established but finances are not combined, should pay. You want to go to the movie and you make the arrangements -- you pay.

If you both want to do something, you go dutch.

A one-person toy (items that go into your body for example or may draw blood that you don't want to run any risk of using with someone else) need to be bought by the person whose body they are going into or purchased as a future gift by the top. They are in the top's control during the relationship but if it end, these toys go with the bottom.

Toys that will be used with multiple people belong to the top -- bottom may wish to buy them gifts but as the "user" of them, they are the tops.

I think it best to work out such details when you are negotiating regardless of the nature of the relationship or the type of contract.

I'm not wealthy. I see it as a sign of serious committment when a sub I'm training or a slave I own pays for any transportation costs if he/she does not live with me. However I try to be responsible so I don't accept folks who have to travel a great distance. A few folks have tried to convince me they are wealthy enough to do this but I have strong doubts plus concerns about what they might expect if they had to fly on a plane every week for a 4 hour training session for 4 months.



AquaticSub -> RE: Who pays and retains? (12/4/2006 5:00:00 AM)

I agree with Najak. Whoever bought the toy (particularly since some of the toys we use are pretty damn expensive!) gets the toy. If they are fine with letting you keep it, then that's a boon for you, but it's not required.



BeautifulRacket -> RE: Who pays and retains? (12/4/2006 11:48:00 AM)

Interesting replies so far; thanks for sharing your thoughts!

quote:

ORIGINAL: MstrssPassion

there is something to be said about those who are just entering relationships & are already concerned with who gets what when/if it fails

There's also something to be said about those who assume the worst about people and post snarky comments, instead of on-topic replies to legitimate questions by inquisitive folks who are interested in what others think and do.



MasterFireMaam -> RE: Who pays and retains? (12/4/2006 12:26:20 PM)

I treat this like I'd treat a vanilla relationship. If they buy something, unless they give it to me as a gift, I assume they bought it for themselves. I also assume things that I've purchased to be mine, unless I give it as a gift. Gifts belong to whomever received the gift, not who bought it. The only exception I can think of is the engagement ring: if he breaks it off, it becomes a gift to her, if she breaks it off, he gets it back. I've seen lots of arguments over toys go bad because one person or the other assumes it works like an engagement ring and the other doesn't. Decided how you'll work and make it know.

Master Fire



BootBlackBlast -> RE: Who pays and retains? (12/4/2006 1:00:50 PM)

When my new boy and I got together, I took him to Mr. S to go shopping. We decided that toys that I might also use with my girlfriend or other play partners, I would both buy and keep. Toys that would only be used on him, butt plugs, cbt toys, and the like, he would purchase and keep. More expensive toys would be decided on a case by case basis. It seems to be working well so far...



LotusSong -> RE: Who pays and retains? (12/4/2006 1:10:40 PM)

This is how Slave Jack and I handled it:
 
He bought the toys. I kept them with the understanding that when we are finished, they remain his.  I would enourage  anyone to start their OWN toy bag.




DiannaVesta -> RE: Who pays and retains? (12/4/2006 2:05:23 PM)

I make them buy the toys and I KEEP THEM! Oh but he can keep the big ass black dildo I shove up his ass as I kick him down the road. lol



FelinePersuasion -> RE: Who pays and retains? (12/4/2006 2:18:45 PM)

Since right now I have far more money availible to me, I buy all the toys I want, and I will be keeping them if we ever walk away from our relationship.

who ever buys them keeps them. And if you both put money into the pot to buy it, then decide between yourself as to what is to be done.



LadyHugs -> RE: Who pays and retains? (12/4/2006 2:37:28 PM)

Dear BeautifulRacket, Ladies and Gentlemen;
 
In my salad days in the lifestyle before "Whips R Us" vendors and the like; dominants had to make their own 'toys.'  So, when there was a talented craftsman among us barter was done.
 
That said, most men made more money then a lady so, men usually carried the total expenses of a lady; be it dominant or submissive roles.  I prefer carrying on that tradition.
 
Tradition a side; I have purchased all my tools/gear.  Educational, a good selection of gear permits more hands on experiences for students to which I enjoy mentoring, a gathering of students in a class and or presentation/demonstration.  So, when I am able to provide 13 different floggers that are all different leathers; it provides the opportunity to experience it as a "Whitman's Sampler" like box of chocolates and select the flogger leather that best suits them.  Saves money when there is an idea on what flogger best works.
 
On a different slant, in using tools; sometimes a clever mind can create different sensations from one tool.  For example, in one of my classes I showed how to take one flogger and create different sensations.  Taking a few tails back, tucking under the hand/handle; taking half of tails back, twisting them like squeezing the mop dry of water, all but 1 tail (a poor man's single tail) and or 2 tails could be considered a quirt.  So, again--some tools, like floggers can have several sensations to give.
 
Now days, if a slave purchases their own toys--it is wonderful.  It use to be the burden of a dominant to supply all tools/gear.  I do agree, with personal toys for those that will be exposed to body fluid and or blood.  Those tools should be dedicated to that one person who's blood and or body fluid is on them.
 
Joint purchases, I think both the dominant and submissive need to discuss who would keep toys/gears long before going to the vendor's table.  It may also be discussed the option to buy or pay back for a toy purchased jointly.  But, before credit cards/charge plates (made of tin/metal); cash and carry was all there was.
 
Respectfully submitted for consideration,
Lady Hugs



AquaticSub -> RE: Who pays and retains? (12/4/2006 2:58:09 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: LotusSong

This is how Slave Jack and I handled it:
 
He bought the toys. I kept them with the understanding that when we are finished, they remain his.  I would enourage  anyone to start their OWN toy bag.




As a young woman, who has discovered that it's very difficult to be a submissive in the dating pool when she doesn't have any toys, I have my own toybox. Or rather, I have two large hatboxs that are by the bed and my friends know not to peer into!

This is particularly good advice for a submissive. When I first started dating my dominant, I opened what was then a drawer in my dorm room and said "This is what I'm into. I enjoy everything in this drawer. Use whatever you want whenever you want." I discussed this with another dominant, who said that it was brillant way to show a dominant what you like without the dreaded topping from the bottom.



poplolly -> RE: Who pays and retains? (12/4/2006 3:00:06 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: MasterFireMaam

The only exception I can think of is the engagement ring: if he breaks it off, it becomes a gift to her, if she breaks it off, he gets it back.



Regarding the engagement ring the rule is:  if it is given as a gift (birthday, Christmas, whatever),  she keeps it;  if the ring is given as a part of the contract to marry (he asks, she agrees, ring is given to seal the contract), she returns it. 



Lordandmaster -> RE: Who pays and retains? (12/4/2006 3:44:31 PM)

That sounds like the voice of experience...



lateralist1 -> RE: Who pays and retains? (12/4/2006 4:30:07 PM)

I am a traditionalist. I have my toys. If I play with a sub who has their own I don't mind as long as I never see them and if we are in a D/s relationship then he doesn't use them without my permission. The man pays for both of us if he can afford to. If he can't then I pay for both of us and if I can't afford we don't go anywhere. Travel and accomodation. I either travel or accomodate. Not both. If he can afford both then he provides both. D/s relationship or not I choose where we are going.
With a woman it's difficult. I try and make it equal. In the end everything boils down to who the two people are in the relationship. If a man can afford to pay my expenses and doesn't want to then I would question whether he was the right man for me to be associating with at all. As I said I'm old fashioned.



MsSonnetMarwood -> RE: Who pays and retains? (12/4/2006 5:27:48 PM)

I've wavered a lot over the "who pays" issue over the years, but I'm firmly in the "male pays" camp these days.  If it's someone I'm seeing regularly, I may pay every once in a while, or I might make dinner (I enjoy cooking), but in general - his responsibility.   I do keep in mind his financial means when we make plans to go out.  Keep in mind too that I am currently a college student; I'm dealing with all the issues of having tuition bills and not being able to work full time.

While I can see the value in the person asking out being the one paying....in my experience, few subs will take the initiative to ask me out or plan an evening even when we're seeing each other and no matter how much I like someone planning an evening out for me.   So if I followed that path...I'd be paying most of the time.

Regarding toys...I've had my own toybag for so long I can't really remember what it was like to have to rely on partners to have toys.  Most of my toys I've purchased myself with my own money, although there have been a few gifts along the ways.  I rarely play with a sub's toys, because quite frankly I really like the ones I have.  



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