RE: Abuse and Consent

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SusanofO -> RE: Abuse and Consent (12/4/2006 6:47:48 PM)
Well, I suppose that could happen. I tend to believe that since nobody is ever infallible under all circumstances that placing oneself in the hands of someone else as a "no limits" slave is saying, if effect: "I don't believe this person (the Master)could ever make a mistake re: Gauging my capacity to "handle" X _______(emotionally or physically - fill in the bdsm activity here in the blank space)". Which seems almost insane (to me). And I am not meaning any offense (at all, please don't misunderstand) to anyone's "faith" in their Master's judgment. But (I think) anyone can be wrong, or just "guess wrong" - on occasion. And - since it doesn't have to be intentional to be "abuse" (as was illustrated, at least to me) - then this whole idea of "no limits" is ridiculous (to me). Please don't flame me for thinking this, anyone, I consider this an intellectual debate, and that's all I am thinking of it as. But - I guess I do have an opinion here, after all. I'd also make a lousy "no limits" slave, I guess. But to each their own. I really do mean this (although if something really horrible and I'd guessed not all that "consensual" (such as in the above scenario) were happening to a slave in front of me, I'd be tempted to intervene, I think. - Susan

ownedgirlie -> RE: Abuse and Consent (12/4/2006 6:49:32 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: SamKeithsslave quote: ORIGINAL: SusanofO So - he goes to the kitchen and finds the biggest Chef's knife in a drawer (huge) and comes back in the room waving it and holds it to her (his) throat. The slave is absolutely terrified. Of course, the slave wnts to please the Master but - Is this "abuse"? I have no opinion (honestly). I am just posing a question (really I am curious what others think). - Susan IMO - yes, as it does irreversable mental damage. I know many believe/feel that because they are a slave they are property and therefore it is up to their Masters what they do etc. I have always felt though that a Master truly worthy of this type of freedom with a slave would respect the slave enough not to abuse them. Actually this happened to me almost exactly as Susan described. I was so terrified I shook and nearly urinated on myself....and at the same time I became hotter than hell over it, lol. Then again, my Master knows I love to be scared shitless by him, because ultimately I realized I have nothing to fear with him at all, and I go limp and offer up my neck for him to do with as he wishes. It depends on the person, and it depends on their dynamic. If we were to start listing "what if" scenarios, we would find ourselves right on target for some people, and flat out wrong for others.

ownedgirlie -> RE: Abuse and Consent (12/4/2006 6:50:57 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: nikaa 1) A person has agreed to be a "no limits" slave....and their Master then, for instance... Kills them is it abuse or consentual play? laughs (After all if they are no limit slaves then even being killed is not a limit, right?) I just have to say this argument is getting SO old. Please go back to all the "no limits slaves" threads to rehash this one.

PiercedDaz -> RE: Abuse and Consent (12/4/2006 6:51:36 PM)
I think that another consideration to be taken into account is this... The person giving consent may not actually know their own limitations. I know that this could cause all sorts of new argumaents but it is a fact, especially if the person is experiencing something new. This is where the person that has been given consent has to be especially careful. Just because consent has been given and both parties are acting in good faith does not mean that somebody may end up being inadvertantly abused. I know very well that this is a very grey area but I have known a friend who had this happen. I would go as far to say that it may take longer for and inadvertantly abused person to get over this as they feel as though they have done this to themselves (which technically they did). A good example (if not a little tangent) of this outside BDSM is my experience of two mentally handicapped people that I once worked in caring for that were in a sexual relationship together. One was found to have abused the other even though both had agreed to the act. They just didn't know better!

SamKeithsslave -> RE: Abuse and Consent (12/4/2006 6:52:02 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: RedSavageSlave quote: ORIGINAL: SamKeithsslave IMO - yes, as it does irreversable mental damage. I know many believe/feel that because they are a slave they are property and therefore it is up to their Masters what they do etc. I have always felt though that a Master truly worthy of this type of freedom with a slave would respect the slave enough not to abuse them. Ahh but what if it doesnt.. What if in fact the slave grows from this experience and ends up feeling proud of herself for giving into her owner's need and learns that "what doesnt kill us makes us stronger".... What if she finds she actually now enjoys knife play? What if the play did NOT do irreversible brain damage? Then is it abuse? Well in the senario presented the slave was stated to have had a fear of knives. I would no more wave a knife at someones neck who had a fear of them than I would place a spider directly on the face of someone with aracnophobia. It has been proven that slowly introducing someone to a fear can help them learn to over come it. I dont think anyone with an extreme fear will respond well to this sort of treatment. And if the play didnt cause any long lasting "mental damage" (not brain damage) I'd consider it still abuse, as the perpetrator cant have known going into it that it would have an overall positive affect etc. Anyone deliberately pushing a hard limit as fast as described is being abusive - again just my opinion.

SusanofO -> RE: Abuse and Consent (12/4/2006 6:55:28 PM)
I agree with you, owndgirlie. I do think it depends on the person. But as you said - your Master knows you like to be scared. - Susan

ownedgirlie -> RE: Abuse and Consent (12/4/2006 6:55:34 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: SamKeithsslave I dont think anyone with an extreme fear will respond well to this sort of treatment. And I'd have to say you are wrong, as I had an intense fear of knives and responded amazingly well. It boils down, once again, to the dynamic of the relationship. quote: And if the play didnt cause any long lasting "mental damage" (not brain damage) I'd consider it still abuse, as the perpetrator cant have known going into it that it would have an overall positive affect etc. Anyone deliberately pushing a hard limit as fast as described is being abusive - again just my opinion. He can indeed know, if he knows his slave well enough, as my Master knew me. I'm not advocating this for everyone, mind you, but I did want to give the flip side to your equation. What one person sees is not necessarily what the other is experiencing.

SusanofO -> RE: Abuse and Consent (12/4/2006 6:57:12 PM)
PiercedDaz - Yes, yes. Yes. I agree! This "pushing limits" is exactly what I was referring to earlier. It is indeed a "gray area" in terms of this question in this thread re: What is abusive? - Susan

nikaa -> RE: Abuse and Consent (12/4/2006 7:00:19 PM)
ownedgirlie, Though I do understand that with written word you could not see my expression or body language when I posted that, I thought that the word laughs made it obvious it was done tongue to cheek.

ownedgirlie -> RE: Abuse and Consent (12/4/2006 7:01:31 PM)
Got it, nikaa, thanks for your reply [;)]

Kalira -> RE: Abuse and Consent (12/4/2006 7:05:13 PM)
I gave Master consent that he could do anything to me that he wished to do, but much in the same vein; anything that permantly harms or damages is abuse.

SamKeithsslave -> RE: Abuse and Consent (12/4/2006 7:05:22 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: ownedgirlie quote: ORIGINAL: SamKeithsslave I dont think anyone with an extreme fear will respond well to this sort of treatment. And I'd have to say you are wrong, as I had an intense fear of knives and responded amazingly well. It boils down, once again, to the dynamic of the relationship. quote: And if the play didnt cause any long lasting "mental damage" (not brain damage) I'd consider it still abuse, as the perpetrator cant have known going into it that it would have an overall positive affect etc. Anyone deliberately pushing a hard limit as fast as described is being abusive - again just my opinion. He can indeed know, if he knows his slave well enough, as my Master knew me. I'm not advocating this for everyone, mind you, but I did want to give the flip side to your equation. What one person sees is not necessarily what the other is experiencing. No-one can truly know the ins and outs of someone mind. While your Master may know you extremely well and have found that aggressively pushing your hard limits in the past has been benificial, thats not to say it always will be the case in the future. One day, inadvertantly he may hit on something and it wont go the way either of you hope, but thats just one of the risks that go along with the lifestyle I guess. I used to have an extreme fear of needles, I'd go white and throw up before passing out at the sight of them. Now I can tolerate having to recieve monthly infusions and needles to give blood for tests etc without throwing up or passing out. But if a Master tried to introduce a needle into play? Sorry my fear still runs deep enough that I couldnt cope, but I do applaud you for overcoming your fears and actually gaining enjoyment from them.

Kalira -> RE: Abuse and Consent (12/4/2006 7:09:42 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: SusanofO I agree with you about the drunk driving scenario, kyra (on second thought, maybe intent isn't always important). Anyone: What if... 1) A person has agreed to be a "no limits" slave....and their Master then, for instance... 2) Decides to "push their limits" and suddenly, without warning (if the person is a slave, then, technically no "pre-negotiations" are needed to change any "play-time "game-plan" - at least that is my understanding - although I realize this agreement about what constitutes a "slave" is situational between two people but - bear with me).... So anyway, the Master decides that tonight he is going to scare the Hell out of his slave with a heavy version of "knife-play" . The Master is a Sadist (which is neither here nor there, but anyway)- he knows his slave hates knifeplay. He also has been craving knife-play and he (technically) doesn't have to care it scares the slave (since the partner is a slave and not a submissive) whether she (or he) "wants to" engage in knife-play - or not. Fact is, though, that knife-play absolutely terrifies his slave. However, he has made no promises to not engage in it with said slave due to this - and this is a "no limits" slave, after all. So - he goes to the kitchen and finds the biggest Chef's knife in a drawer (huge) and comes back in the room waving it and holds it to her (his) throat, and starts cutting (very lightly). The slave is absolutely terrified. Of course, the slave wants to please the Master but - Is this "abuse"? I have no opinion (honestly). I am just posing a question (really I am curious what others think). - Susan For myself only, no, it would not be considered abuse simply because when I became property, I agreed to give up any and all boundaries that I may still have harbored ( the boundaries that Master and I agreed upon as being taboo early on do not apply here ). I willingly gave him my consent; based on my trust and my respect for him. That is not something that I take lightly.

SusanofO -> RE: Abuse and Consent (12/4/2006 7:11:16 PM)
I do understand what ownedgirlie and others are saying. It is clear they really really trust their Masters. I applaud them for that (I do). I just don't want anyone doing knife-play on me (I personally cannot "handle" it. I already know this. If I was a "no limits" slave, I'd have to trust my Master wouldn't try it, as I am pretty sure I would not be "better off" for the experience. On the other hand I am also scared of heights, and that is a fear I think I could actually work with and make progress over-coming....but again - I guess "picking and choosing" what one can "deal with" (or not) is "topping from the bottom? Is it? Or is making one's Master aware of these things "topping from the bottom" if one is a "no limits" slave? Maybe I am "hair-splitting" but am truly confused. Or maybe I am just mind_ucking myself slowly to death (we all gotta go sometime, right), hehe)? - Susan

TemptingNviceSub -> RE: Abuse and Consent (12/4/2006 7:15:23 PM)
Ach kyra..you have been around KOM too long!.He makes my head hurt with the questions he asks and now you!!..(wheres the aspirin?)..when I read this question and with the subsequent postings all that came to my mind is that there is no real answer..it is too convoluted..too many variables..maybe it is finite to the number of people in the world, ...to get to the crux of the question and to find an all around definition that fits all ,generally speaking ,is to me ,impossible...[:)]...Tempting

theRose4U -> RE: Abuse and Consent (12/4/2006 7:18:54 PM)
quote: What is harmful and abusive will vary depending on the people involved and the circumstances, but I do not think that consent will change whether something is abusive or not. In my relationship, I gave my consent for him to do whatever he wanted with me. However, there are things that would be harmful to me and if he chose to do them, then he would be abusive. Some of the details you gave on the other thread of kicking and punching would probably raise some eyebrows if done in public. My understanding from how you posed it is you say master I want to be kicked and punched. This being discussed and consented to and your master being in control of himself with a mindset of causing pleasure and not breaking his toy makes it very different in my mind than. Master came home pissed because an old lady was driving too slow and the wendy's clerk messed up his order so he punched and kicked me to vent. "boy I'm glad he brought it home to me instead of hurting someone" [sm=banghead.gif] I'd honestly be shocked if I ever heard that your master came home in a rage and raised a hand to any of you. Beating you gooey, well that's an entirely different story. [sm=crop.gif]

marieToo -> RE: Abuse and Consent (12/4/2006 7:19:33 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: kyraofMists I am curious to hear other's opinions on what part, if any, consent plays in your ideas of abuse. Im hitting almost a brick wall with this one. Abuse is subjective between consenting adults, therefore if someone is enduring it, is it still abuse?

ownedgirlie -> RE: Abuse and Consent (12/4/2006 7:21:46 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: SamKeithsslave No-one can truly know the ins and outs of someone mind. While your Master may know you extremely well and have found that aggressively pushing your hard limits in the past has been benificial, thats not to say it always will be the case in the future. One day, inadvertantly he may hit on something and it wont go the way either of you hope, but thats just one of the risks that go along with the lifestyle I guess. I used to have an extreme fear of needles, I'd go white and throw up before passing out at the sight of them. Now I can tolerate having to recieve monthly infusions and needles to give blood for tests etc without throwing up or passing out. But if a Master tried to introduce a needle into play? Sorry my fear still runs deep enough that I couldnt cope, but I do applaud you for overcoming your fears and actually gaining enjoyment from them. He knows my mind pretty thoroughly, lol. But even if something does go wrong (and it has before, trust me), it is not abusive to me. Things that go wrong are corrected, and not blamed on me, and do not leave me feeling like a wretched human being. That was my original point about abuse, before we got all side tracked with specifics :) And to assure you, my Master did not do that to me until well over a year into our relationship. He knew it would likely not have gone well before that level of trust was developed.

PiercedDaz -> RE: Abuse and Consent (12/4/2006 7:23:16 PM)
SusanofO, I totally understand where you are coming from! NO! This is NOT topping from the unless you use telling your Master your limits (ironically) as an abuse of your power as a sub to control what happens. This is welfare of human beings that we are talking about. I don't give a damn how hardcore BDSM someone is - Power Exchange is exactly that - it needs to be exchanged constantly in both directions. This is not a case of 'You Tarzan, me jane!'. Power exchange is fluid. It ebbs, flows, surges and receeds. I know a good Vanilla example. I take complete novices and more experienced people up mountains for a job. They say to me 'I want to get to the top nomatter what', I say to them 'I'm going to take you to the top nomatter what'. However - nomatter how much someone may want something and nomatter how much consent has been given, not everyone is capable. Sometimes I have to look for fatigue of the body and mind. How many times have I brought someone down against their will as I 'knew' they wouldn't make it? Lots. If I had carried on up and they had become distressed or injured, it would have been abuse - even though they wanted to push it. BDSM is NO different to real life. Nothing is fixed in stone.

angelic -> RE: Abuse and Consent (12/4/2006 7:23:18 PM)
krya, as i was reading this my mind started wandering, and it might have wandered off your intended thread. If so, i apologize because i am going to post as to where my mind went. [8D] (If that makes sense). i am only speaking to abuse in BDSM situations and i am also going to unequivocally state, i try to "mother" the world so i tend to worry about even those i have never met nor likely to meet. And, of course, the obvious... this is only my opinion. Now, having said that.... i worry about abuse in BDSM when one who has been abused as a small one and goes into BDSM for abuse because that is all they know. They have taken one abuse and because they have never had a healthy relationship, they move towards or are drawn to those who would continue the abuse and that they honestly believe they are in healthy relationships. They have, therefore, consented to the abuse. Then again, they may not even realize that's precisely what it is. ~just my 1/2 cent worth~

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