RE: Abuse and Consent

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adaddysgirl -> RE: Abuse and Consent (12/5/2006 10:56:01 PM)
And just so i know i'm not crazy here (and am really amazed at my own memory after a day in the office) here is what prop actually said: it may very well be abuse...doesn't much matter as i'm his property, and to us that means he has the right to do what he wills with me. but you are wrong about the lack of control. if he lacked control, he would simply take out his anger and aggressions directly on the source, choking the cashier at wendy's or whipping the guy who cut him off on the highway. instead he makes a very conscious and controlled effort to physically vent on me, which makes him feel better and in turn makes me feel better since he is restored to calm and tranquility and i know i have done my part to help. And you are right erin, we can just agree to disagree. DG

theRose4U -> RE: Abuse and Consent (12/5/2006 11:00:41 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: adaddysgirl quote: ORIGINAL: theRose4U These words touched me deeply. I always knew we had something in common, I just with all my heart wish it was something else like basket weaving. I've learned hard lessons about free will in recent years. There are days that I wish I could text my experiences into other's heads so that they don't have to suffer or learn things the way that I have. The sad part to all human programming is free will. People can know deep down that something's wrong or harmful but until they accept that it's wrong on a conscious level there's nothing that you can do. This is the same sad reason that sends advocacy clients home to their abuser...they literally can't process the reality that they didn't do anything to provoke the attack. "Oh he didn't mean it", "I shouldn't have upset him". "I should have made the kids be quiet", "He just had a bad day and needed to vent", "I'm just a slave and have no choices". If you're lucky they don't give up the addresses of safe houses, tell who and how they contacted the underground railroad, or where they were sent for relocation. In a perfect world they are single and alone with no one else that will mourn for them. Most don't consider that their parents, children or siblings will suffer for years while a murder case winds through the courts. In a perfect world it's not the innocents that are harmed or buried. In a perfect world they get that their job is to above all protect their children from harm. In a perfect world they wake up and see that daddy hitting mommy because he's mad turns their children into the the ext generation of victims. Hmmm....it's kind of interesting how you just threw in the 'i am just a slave and have no choices' with the rest of your abuse references, isn't it Rose? You can sit here and describe the saddest situations you have come across with abused children and mothers til you are blue in the face. And you can try to liken them to the D/s dynamic that is being discussed in this thread....and i am most certain you will gain little sympathy for your cause...nor the ridiculous comparison between the two. i worked for welfare for 12 years. i have seen the dirt poor, abused women, abused kids. This is no where near comparable to what we are talking about here....yet you try to make it so. Why is that? i also worked with the mentally ill for a few years....most of whom, as adults, had been abused as children. No one can dispute the sorrow of these situations. But once again....just try to grasp that we are not talking about anything similar to that here. Perhaps you could start a thread on 'the abuse of women' or something like that and gather similar views to yours.....and leave this one to those who are talking about something quite different than these poor abused women in abusive relationships who can't leave, feel they deserve the abuse, blame themselves....etc, etc, etc. So whadaya say? DG I say that those new to the party and bitter in their own experiences should try keeping an open mind and learn something instead of trying to take personal pot shots. Before taking personal pot shots because reference to a slave with no choices seems to be offensive you might want to reference the original thread for the correct context of the comment. As for there being no parallels I think you missed more than a few pages. Not all D/s is abusive and I've pointed that out more than once. I also think realizing that welfare, class, education, race and even sex do not decide who will and won't be abused would be wise. It's more than a little sad that you seem to believe income or kink somehow influence whether consent is valid or not. As for the belief that my comments are somehow a hyjacking tyraid on the abuse of women you're still stretching. WIITWD IS THE GREY AREA! The exact same physical action ask pointed out by KOM has many interpretations. The exact point I've now made 4 times on this very thread and multiple times on the other. Trying to take this as something directed at you is more than a little arrogant, trying to ask me to leave because you don't like my point of view is just sad.

adaddysgirl -> RE: Abuse and Consent (12/5/2006 11:04:16 PM)
Rose, You really make no sense at all. [sm=boohoo.gif] Have a great night! DG

timeoutgurlie -> RE: Abuse and Consent (12/5/2006 11:08:54 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: mistoferin quote: ORIGINAL: timeoutgurlie quote: ORIGINAL: catize quote: I'm left confused overall about the notion of an abusive relationship regardless of consent. I've never quite understood why anyone would stay when they're in a situation that doesn't fit themelves [&:] If the way they are treated makes them unhappy,if they are harmed by it, then it is abuse. The crux of the discussion here is if someone consents and says they are happy, says they do not feel harmed, is it indeed, abuse? To add to my previous post, if someone comes to me and wonders if what is happening to them is abuse, I would say if they have to ask that question, then perhaps it is. But if they come to me, smiling and excited to share an experience that made them happy, even if it makes me squirm, I must accept that it was not abusive for them, despite my own definition of what is harmful/abusive for me. I'm inclined to agree with what you've posted here, for me if they feel fine about it, then it couldn't be abuse, regardless of what I would personally feel if involved in the same scanrios they describe. For me, no, it wouldn't be abuse if they were fine with things, how could it be? I still find the whole issue confusing really, not sure I'll ever understand what difference it makes. If someone chooses things in life, and continues to live with them, then I can't see the abuse factor. [&:] I have a girlfriend who thinks her husband is being abusive if he doesn't take her to dinner at least three nights a week or if he books a room for them at a hotel that has poor room service. If she is not being totally pampered and spoiled she thinks it's abusive...so does that make it abusive? I have have talked to a woman who's husband came home from a bad day at work and shoved her face down onto the hot frying pan she was cooking him dinner on. I was called to come speak to her by the hospital where she was being treated for second and third degree burns. She didn't think it was abusive...she said he just had a bad day and "sometimes he just can't help himself, I understand"....she said she "deserved it"....she loved him. So does that make that not abusive? That's where I feel the confusion on whther it's even possible to define abuse. For myself I would feel jipped in the first example, and unsafe in the second. So for my own standards, neither would feel ok. Seems "abuse" really is hinged on how the one/s in the relationship feel about what's going on within that specific relationship. The more I read, the more I think about it, it's as if abuse is a term as individual as love, it means something different to ever individual. Before this I would've thought my own feelings would be there are certain things that are just absolute, and would of course be abuse, but the more I see what others feel about the same scenarios that I would've tacked with an abuse label, the more I realize it's something so personal to everyone that what I would feel in their place really means nothing. My feeling now is that as long as it's accepted by an individual, then what right do I have to tell them what they have chosen is wrong?

theRose4U -> RE: Abuse and Consent (12/5/2006 11:21:28 PM)
quote: So why do you continue to try to push the point that a sub/slave who ends up feeling fulfilled (on some level) when her partner comes home and beats on her because he got pissed off at the cashier at Wendy's is the same as a vanilla guy who comes home and beats his wife for the same reason? It is not the same thing. Can't you see that? By your own words they are the same. What twisted place do you live that non-consentual is ok?

theRose4U -> RE: Abuse and Consent (12/5/2006 11:34:00 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: adaddysgirl Rose, You really make no sense at all. [sm=boohoo.gif] Have a great night! DG Next time just stand in the middle of the room so we can all focus on you and go ALALALALALALALA I'M NOT LISTENING!!! At least it's honest. We now return you to your regularly scheduled adult thread.

ownedgirlie -> RE: Abuse and Consent (12/5/2006 11:43:45 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: marieToo What you described sounds more like a dysfunctional relationship to me, rather than an abusive one and here is why I see it this way... It was a mistake to put myself out there in this thread. One can not differentiate dysfunction from abuse after only a few paragraphs. After months of intense therapy, the diagnosis of abuse was stated by two different family counselors. I have no intention of justifying myself further. quote: For me...me...and no one else, I define abuse by 2 criteria. A. One person intends to damage/harm B. The other person is not desirous of the above. (non-consent) Beyond that I will stretch this to say that I think it's possible to define certain behaviors as "abusive behaviors" and still maintain that in some circumstances, abusive behaviors being present in a relationship are not necessarily indicia that "abuse" is taking place. A human with a sick mind does not know he is inflicting harm on another, nor does he intend to. Same with an ignorant mind. Take shaking baby syndrome. A young teenaged mother just wants the baby sto stop crying. She didn't intend to hurt it...or kill it. Not abuse? You are right, however. Abusive behaviors do not automatically translate into an abusive relationship. At some point, however, the behaviors can overwhelm the relationship and yes indeed, the relationship is abusive. It's a touchy situation to define. I remain of my original opinion, that if a relationship causes one person to feel worse about him/herself, and causes damage to their inner being, it is abuse.

theRose4U -> RE: Abuse and Consent (12/5/2006 11:58:47 PM)
quote: My feeling now is that as long as it's accepted by an individual, then what right do I have to tell them what they have chosen is wrong? As I said earlier in this thread free will is sometimes a sad thing. Many things that are bad because they are mentally, physically and emotionally harmful are accepted usually for reasons that are part of the original disease. Many more things fall outside that box (WIITWD being one of those). We've all had friends where we have the personal experience that makes us look at a friend and say, "girl you're gonna get in trouble if you do x". They look you in the face and say "oh no he's perfect, loves me, would never do x". In your heart you know they are headed down a bad path. Free will is the umbrella that explains man I know she's going to get into trouble but I still want to be her friend. You sit back, watch the train wreck and pick up the pieces. They're adults and you like to think that they have a clue but all you can do is shake your head, let them make their own choices. In my world, friends do speak up and say whoops maybe this is a bad idea, are you sure, are you really really sure...well crap ok call me when it's over. Free will governs whether they listen and apply that advise or not. You can't MAKE people listen or behave the way you'd want them to. This I think also applies to the dichotomy of kyra, kicking and punching 98% of the time lives under that umbrella of bad. I think those witnessing from the outside without an understanding of the care KOM uses would have an issue. Most would look at them in shock and say "you're going to do WHAT!" Are you sure are you really really sure? Girl you're outta your mind, as she grins and says yep outta my mind with pleasure.

timeoutgurlie -> RE: Abuse and Consent (12/6/2006 12:28:45 AM)
theRose - I totally get what you're saying, and that's what makes it so confusing, because if it were a friend of course if something caught my radar and I felt she were making a mistake/putting herself in harm's way, I would intervene without a doubt. There's something though about not having a 'vanilla' relationship that makes me feel like all the rules change. If I were friends with someone in the lifestyle and these things were happening (whatever things, anything I felt uncomfortable with) then I'm not sure how far the 'intervening' would go because I'd have to accept it was what she...or he if they were male, wanted. I guess then I'd have more to work with and feel sure about. Through posts we can only take people at their word that they are in fact content with their relationship, irl we'd have a better sense of the person and then the instincts would guide us. I respect everyone's choices, but if they were personal friends then I would interfere if I felt it would benefit them and if I lost their friendship and was out of place then so be it. Here though, the venue just doesn't give me any of that instinctual response, so it's altogether different. Not sure if any of what I'm saying makes sense, this one's very difficult to reason out in text...or even inside my own head honestly [&:]

theRose4U -> RE: Abuse and Consent (12/6/2006 1:00:32 AM)
quote: If I were friends with someone in the lifestyle and these things were happening (whatever things, anything I felt uncomfortable with) then I'm not sure how far the 'intervening' would go because I'd have to accept it was what she...or he if they were male, wanted. I guess I miss why a lifestyle friend is different than any other? I have nilla friends that I regularly talk to and think geeze she should be a Domme. Man he's so sub. At least in my world I'm open about what I think nilla or not. Some people love it others hate it oh well free will at least I'm being honest with myself. Watching close sub friends go through the mental twists of sir wants x and that's a limit, do I do it so he's happy even though I hate it I've had to reconcile both. You can see the emotional pain your friend is going through but the longer you talk to them you get what their dom is onto and I try to explain in terms they get. The specific friend I'm thinking of, how I outted myself to her was that I always seemed to "get" what her boyfriend/dom meant. He wanted x which was something I personally really like both giving and receiving, for her it's a limit. After explaining pro's and con's she ended up fearfully trying. She came back and was kind of embarassed. I liked it and never thought I would. Not sure I'd do it again but he's happy. She laughed when I told her that it's kind of like lima beans, they won't kill you if you eat them even if you don't like them and once in a while trying a few keeps mom happy.

timeoutgurlie -> RE: Abuse and Consent (12/6/2006 1:34:46 AM)
Different for me because I (as far as I'm aware anyhow lol) don't have any. It's something completely foreign to me at this point, and I have no idea how I'd manage. Though if I didn't know what they were into and was assuming they were 'nilla, then I'd butt in and not think twice, so it really doesn't make any logical sense. Hopefully I don't face this scenario until I've sorted out how to react lol That's a good one, the lima bean analogy. Should've been a red flag years ago that I was the only kid on the block who ate them and liked it [8D]

julietsierra -> RE: Abuse and Consent (12/6/2006 2:35:23 AM)
Well, let's see... For ME, the line between abuse and approval of what is happening is based on what happens prior to what we're contemplating as abuse. If I walk into a relationship and he says, "In this relationship, we're going to explore a lot of things that involve sensation - some of them intense. These things may include spanking, punching, slapping and ....(you fill in the blank). If you don't want that, let me know now. If you find that at any time, you are having problems with what we're doing, let me know, we'll talk it through. If at any time, you feel that you can not, or do not want to continue, let me know and we will stop. I will respect your views even though I impose my decisions on us. However, if you can't live with my decision, the decision to walk away always rests with you and the door is always open, even if I hope you will choose to not walk through it." and I agree to these things (especially if I've asked enough questions to have a reasonable assurance of what I'm agreeing to, then it is not abuse. Because of that prior conversation, it is not abuse, even if he punches, plays with my hard limits, makes me feel poorly in the short run. It is not abuse if he pushes too far or too hard and is there to help with the aftereffects. It IS abuse when someone comes home and enacts those very same things on someone who has no clue what's going on. It IS abuse, even if I've consented, if the short run becomes an always thing. It IS abuse if, over time, things are escalating, he is acting out of what I perceive to be hatred (not just anger at something at work, cause I offer my "services" to him all the time when he is angry at something at work - he just never takes me up on it [sm=m23.gif]), or makes me feel less of a person in the process. But again, the imperative here, TO ME, is the time factor. If I've tried to talk to him about how I feel and his response is, in effect, "too bad, I do what I want," and if he attempts to coerce me into staying, through fear of reprisal, then that is abuse - and consent has nothing to do with anything when it's been coerced.. I know a lot of people have differing views, and I know there are always extremes that we can put out there, but as for me and my relationships, that's how I differentiate between what is and is not abuse. Is it any wonder when we, who live this life can't figure out what abuse is, that peple who are required to judge and react to this are having a tough time too? juliet

marieToo -> RE: Abuse and Consent (12/6/2006 4:18:29 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: ownedgirlie quote: ORIGINAL: marieToo What you described sounds more like a dysfunctional relationship to me, rather than an abusive one and here is why I see it this way... It was a mistake to put myself out there in this thread. One can not differentiate dysfunction from abuse after only a few paragraphs. After months of intense therapy, the diagnosis of abuse was stated by two different family counselors. I have no intention of justifying myself further. I didn't ask you for justification. I was acutally agreeing with you, who yourself said you dont think of yourself as abused. You said at the end of your post to me "You tell me". And thats what I did. I thought you were looking for an opinion on it, as further disuscussion of the point. not as a way to define for you what you went through. I wasnt trying to tell you want you went through or how to feel about your relationship, for God's sake; I wasn't there. Thats why I reiterated the words "for me" in my return post. You put your example out there, kyra then asked another poster to comment on it, I made the mistake of humbly stepping in on the question , asking her if she wouldnt mind my input, as a contributor to the thread and I have since by railed by the both of you. My commentary about abusive behaviors was NOT in correlation to YOUR past relationship. It was a separate paragraph, explaining or TRYING to explain that FOR ME....FOR ME....CONSENT ITSELF is a very part of defing the word abuse. And thats why I found this question impossible to answer Edited to add that the rest was deleted, because it's so not worth it.

kyraofMists -> RE: Abuse and Consent (12/6/2006 4:31:59 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: marieToo I seem to have failed horribly and managed to offend 2 ppl whom I have never had words with before, yet neither has the courtesy to offer the benefit of the doubt or to ask for clarification before getting all over me. First, you are making an assumption that I am offended; which is inaccurate because nothing you said offended me. And you do not offer the benefit of the doubt before assuming what my emotions are by asking if I am offended. And second, I requested clarification on a question and you responded by saying that you were leaving the discussion. Once you stated you were leaving there was little point in giving you the clarification you were seeking. It was your choice to leave the discussion. Knight's kyra

marieToo -> RE: Abuse and Consent (12/6/2006 4:34:20 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: kyraofMists quote: ORIGINAL: marieToo I seem to have failed horribly and managed to offend 2 ppl whom I have never had words with before, yet neither has the courtesy to offer the benefit of the doubt or to ask for clarification before getting all over me. First, you are making an assumption that I am offended; which is inaccurate because nothing you said offended me. And you do not offer the benefit of the doubt before assuming what my emotions are by asking if I am offended. And second, I requested clarification on a question and you responded by saying that you were leaving the discussion. Once you stated you were leaving there was little point in giving you the clarification you were seeking. It was your choice to leave the discussion. Knight's kyra spare me.

kyraofMists -> RE: Abuse and Consent (12/6/2006 4:41:51 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: marieToo quote: ORIGINAL: kyraofMists quote: ORIGINAL: marieToo I seem to have failed horribly and managed to offend 2 ppl whom I have never had words with before, yet neither has the courtesy to offer the benefit of the doubt or to ask for clarification before getting all over me. First, you are making an assumption that I am offended; which is inaccurate because nothing you said offended me. And you do not offer the benefit of the doubt before assuming what my emotions are by asking if I am offended. And second, I requested clarification on a question and you responded by saying that you were leaving the discussion. Once you stated you were leaving there was little point in giving you the clarification you were seeking. It was your choice to leave the discussion. Knight's kyra spare me. LOL and you want me to think that you are actually interested in discussing this issue. Quite amusing, marie

RedSavageSlave -> RE: Abuse and Consent (12/6/2006 5:20:23 AM)
<fast reply> stands on chair and shakes fists in the air ARRRGGGHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!! sits down and watches the battle continue on

amaidiamond -> RE: Abuse and Consent (12/6/2006 5:50:53 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: mistoferin quote: ORIGINAL: adaddysgirl The people here are not talking about an abused vanilla wife who ends up in the hospital...or dead. Then I guess I really am not getting it because I was under the impression that we were talking about abuse and whether or not consent has relevance. I don't differentiate between vanilla housewives and lifestyle people when it comes to abuse. Maybe that is because I have a clear cut image of what abuse is and it relates far more to the lasting results than the causes or immediate actions. I don't believe that a slap or a kick or a punch is what defines abuse. But please, are you trying to say that because we are involved in a kinky lifestyle that there are no people here who are being abused? People who may have given consent for any one of the reasons that I described? If that is the case, I believe you need to take a closer look around for I have found many people in this lifestyle who have suffered at the hands of an abuser who was all too willing to justify it by the "codes" of this "lifestyle", and I have found many a victim who couldn't even comprehend that they were one because they thought that it was just something they had to tolerate to be considered a member or because some "Dom" told them that this is the way it's supposed to be and because of their chosen position they have to accept it. I believe when a relationship gets to a certain point (though cannot clarify the exact place of that point it would differ) then D/s, Vanilla whatever it is doesnt matter. I was with a man who was amazing, I was in the states and we were starting out on what seemed a very special D/s journey...i went home to the UK and he changed, got paranoid, insecure, jealous, so afraid I would run off with another person, he told me how fat I was, how ugly, that he duidn't remember my tits being that saggy, and was I sure I hadn't put on weight, he told me he couldnt look at me bgecause he cared about me, and if he looked he'd feel disgust and couldnt bear that. If I obayed i was robotic if I questioned insolent, I could not win So i told him I would not be coming back to the states, I would not be returning, that we would not work, He phoned me up and shouted, then phoned me up and cried, then phoned me up and threatened, and i stayed strong. A few days later he called me, could hear machines and the like in the background, he told me he was phoning from the hospital, he'd tried to slit his wrists, life wasnt worth it without me. So of course, my reacton was to try and smooth things over, told him we'd talk about it, and i did try again, tried to brush off the jibes, the verbal attacks, even when he had a friend write to me stating what an awful person i was and that my mothers cancer was most likely caused by stress from having a daughter like me... the final straw was when he made threats against someone I cared deeply for, and then my father said, if you go back over there you'll come home in a box. So I told him it was done, then cut all contact, changed my email, I even moved into a new rented place, and even now I still don't know what happened to him. So yes, Vanilla or D/s it makes no difference in my mind once a line is crossed

Tikkiee -> RE: Abuse and Consent (12/6/2006 6:01:35 AM)
quote: I am curious to hear other's opinions on what part, if any, consent plays in your ideas of abuse. Hmm, coming from a background of severe abuse, I would probably say that my ideas of abuse are pretty strict. I have had Chris in the past do things that in my mind WERE abusive, yet he did them to help me get past the issues that I had. He did not have consent to do them, and at the time, I thought he was an insensitive bastard for doing them; yet, I came to realize that he was actually right. His actions did help me in the long run. Now, there are things that absolutly terrify me and that I would never be able to consent to on my own; yet, Master is slowly taking me down that road to help me reconcile the pain from the past. However, I would not consider what he is doing as abusive. For myself, the issues of consent and abuse can get kind of blurred. I am one that really does rely on my partner to know what is best in the long run.

mistoferin -> RE: Abuse and Consent (12/6/2006 6:47:05 AM)
fast reply.... There is an interesting thread on the "Ask a Master" board. The OP has written to ask about removing his slaves clitoris. The responses are shock and disbelief. He is taking quite a bashing for asking the question. Now he does not say if he has garnered consent from her or not. Possibly as a slave he doesn't need to as he may already have a blanket consent to do with her as he wishes. But I have to ask, for those who think that consent is what makes the difference, if he removes her clit would you think that was abusive? I mean it is not outside the realm of possibility although granted, it's more extreme than most of us here would wish to go. I know of at least one person on these boards who has given serious thought to this in the past...who will remain nameless unless they decide to chime in and give a perspective.

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