RE: Abuse and Consent

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CreativeDominant -> RE: Abuse and Consent (12/6/2006 7:47:26 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: mistoferin fast reply.... There is an interesting thread on the "Ask a Master" board. The OP has written to ask about removing his slaves clitoris. The responses are shock and disbelief. He is taking quite a bashing for asking the question. Now he does not say if he has garnered consent from her or not. Possibly as a slave he doesn't need to as he may already have a blanket consent to do with her as he wishes. But I have to ask, for those who think that consent is what makes the difference, if he removes her clit would you think that was abusive? I mean it is not outside the realm of possibility although granted, it's more extreme than most of us here would wish to go. I know of at least one person on these boards who has given serious thought to this in the past...who will remain nameless unless they decide to chime in and give a perspective. Going back to my two posts on this thread and what I've said: removal of the clitoris will make his slave "less" than what she is now. From the educational background to do the the work I do I can tell you that this will leave her with less sensation and can lead to other health issues. For me, going by the belief in my mind that abuse is that which diminishes a person and makes them less...and though sometimes it may be confusing as to just what will diminish a person... this instance seems pretty cut and dried. She WILL be physically less and in all likelihood will end up emotionally less.

ownedgirlie -> RE: Abuse and Consent (12/6/2006 8:00:21 AM)
Deleted. It was too big a distraction from the topic at hand, which is an interesting and important one.

ownedgirlie -> RE: Abuse and Consent (12/6/2006 8:28:41 AM)
I found this website very helpful to me when I needed it. Perhaps others will also benefit: www.YouAreNotCrazy.com. Often times a person experiencing abuse is minimized by the abuser, and begins to feel she (he) is out of her mind for feeling so upset. That site helped me to realize I was not realy crazy (well, at least not in that sense, lol). I also liked the following excerpt which I borrowed from www.CompassionPower.com: Love without Compassion is Possessive, Controlling, and Dangerous Compassion is the most important emotion in intimate relationships. It contributes far more to happiness than love does. Relationships can be happy with low levels of love and high levels of compassion, but not the other way around. Why is compassion so necessary for love relationships? For one thing, it sensitizes you to the individuality and vulnerability of your loved ones. It makes you see that your wife is a different person from you, with a separate set of experiences, a different temperament, different vulnerabilities, and, in some respects, different values. In contrast, if you feel the intensity of love without compassion, you cannot see ther person your partner truly is. She becomes merely a source of emotion for you, rather than a separate person in her own right. When she makes you feel good, she's on a pedestal. When she makes you feel bad, she becomes a demon. Love without compassion is possessive, controlling, rejecting, and dangerous. Compassion, on the other hand, makes you protective, rather than controlling. The difference is crucial. When you're protective, you want to help her achieve what is best for her. Most of all, you want her to feel okay about herself. When you're controlling, you want her to feel bad for not doing what you want her to do, regardless of how she feels about herself. Of course M/s may add a different element for some, but the concept of the above was good, in my opinion.

LuckyAlbatross -> RE: Abuse and Consent (12/6/2006 8:37:03 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: ownedgirlie Deleted. It was too big a distraction from the topic at hand, which is an interesting and important one. I didn't think so... I thought it has a lot of good perspective to it.

mountainpet -> RE: Abuse and Consent (12/6/2006 8:57:41 AM)
Abuse is often hard to detect, particularly in the context of bdsm relationships. There have been many cases of abuse where the victim insists that they are not being abused, and ultimately they have to be rescued. This happens most often with members of religious cults, but it does take place elsewhere too. I think the fact that we even think about the issue, and ask ourselves if someone is being abused, is a good reflection on the practitioners (carefully avoiding use of the term "bdsm community"). We have to remember that none of us live or act in a vacuum; the mores and customs of bdsm don't trump the laws of the land, nor the often unofficial "rules" of society. If we can explain ourselves to that jury of twelve of our peers, we have nothing to worry about. It only takes one of them to get us off the hook.

KnightofMists -> RE: Abuse and Consent (12/6/2006 5:33:41 PM)
To put a twist to the topics and discussions that everyone is having.... Many look at abuse... as causing harm or deminishing a person in some way... a person is some how less after the fact. Another thought that I have had here... is a question of limiting growth/potential. Is it abusive to limit another's natural growth as a person?... is looking at deminishing the existence of a person to narrow of consideration for abuse. I wonder if abuse doen't really start at limiting a person's growth first and then evolves into a deminishing of the person themself? Just more gas for the fire!

LadyHugs -> RE: Abuse and Consent (12/6/2006 5:44:07 PM)
Dear KnightofMists, Ladies and Gentlemen; In my mind's eyes I would see limiting growth as potential for abuse, as it is a denial of growth. However, limiting growth can mean anything and the intent is what makes it the 'choice' factor between good and or evil. I can look at denial/limit of growth as control and or iscolation, then it is prone to be abusive. Yet, limiting growth can also mean pace or regulating growth as not to be going warp speed instead at a walk. It further needs to be understood and or communicated what is taking place during the denial/limiting of growth. Just some thoughts. Respectfully submitted for consideration, Lady Hugs

ownedgirlie -> RE: Abuse and Consent (12/6/2006 6:19:43 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: LuckyAlbatross quote: ORIGINAL: ownedgirlie Deleted. It was too big a distraction from the topic at hand, which is an interesting and important one. I didn't think so... I thought it has a lot of good perspective to it. Thanks, LA. But it's gone now. I couldn't repeat it if I tried. My mind is a bit skewed lately.

marieToo -> RE: Abuse and Consent (12/6/2006 6:32:04 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: LadyHugs Dear KnightofMists, Ladies and Gentlemen; In my mind's eyes I would see limiting growth as potential for abuse, as it is a denial of growth. However, limiting growth can mean anything and the intent is what makes it the 'choice' factor between good and or evil. I can look at denial/limit of growth as control and or iscolation, then it is prone to be abusive. Yet, limiting growth can also mean pace or regulating growth as not to be going warp speed instead at a walk. It further needs to be understood and or communicated what is taking place during the denial/limiting of growth. Yes. If Im reading you correctly, LadyHugs, this is echoing my feeling on the issue. I can remember a thread in which I called a certain practice sick. And it was rightfully pointed out to me that simply because I see it as sick, doesn't mean its not "kink" to someone else. As applied in a BDSM context....I almost view the word abuse in a similar way as I view the word sick. I might think its abusive to come home and take your aggression out on a sub's ass. Someone else might view it as part of the way they 'serve' their Dom/Master. If one can beat one's ass for a punishment kink, or for pain kink, or for a need to vent kink, who should call any of these "abuses"? To me, they become abuses when one person 'intends' to harm/damage and/or the other person doesn't consent to that "harm/damage". Having said that I would have to answer the OP's question as follows.... In a bdsm relationship, to me, consent would be of the utmost importance with regards to calling something abuse. I also think....and this is general talk...its not about anyone. I think that spousal abuse is a whole other kettle of fish. Yes someone can do something abusive without meaning to harm or without knowing they are harming, and someone can put up with it, because they are not aware that damage is or will take place. The type of spousal abuse that I describe here (where intent to harm is NOT present), I would call dysfunction. That doesnt mean its not abusive...it only means its how I describe it when there is a situation where a person is clueless that they are fucking someone else up. In my brain (in my associations) the word abuse automatically takes me to a the word maliciousness. If maliciousness and intent to harm are not present, I have a hard time (not impossible but hard time) calling this abuse....But on the other hand, I can also see that abusive behaviors can be classified as "abuses" of a certain kind, even if the person doesnt mean to do harm. I could say I was abused as a child. But do I think my father meant to harm me? No. But do I still feel I suffered abuse? yes. It was dysfucntional. He did what he thought was right...he was wrong....really wrong...but he didnt know or think he was "abusive" to me. When the question rolls around and someone asks me if I was abused in childhood, I usually find myself on the fence in an effort to answer it. To summarize my mess: BDSM situation : Consent has the utmost importance with regards to abuse. Spousal situation: Consent doesn't neccesarily have to be present for abuse to be taking place or for a person to consider themselves to have been abused.

adaddysgirl -> RE: Abuse and Consent (12/6/2006 6:40:48 PM)
kyra, First i want to say thanks for this thread....it gave me some things to think about (and maybe KoM too....lucky you...lol) As mentioned in the OP, and probably what most here have agreed, abuse is something that is permanently damaging and makes the person somehow less. i'm still thinking about the consent thing but i have at least come to understand what consent means to you in your relationship. A little story to share: When i met my first daddy dom, we discussed a lot about hard limits before we actually became involved. He understood the ones i had and was open to the possibility of the discovery of new ones along the way. The actual agreement was that he would try new things and if i felt them in some way harmful (as referred to here), he would respect that. i had no idea about spankings....never had one (of any type) in my life. The first one i got by him came as a complete shock to me. He literally spanked me to tears and i really didn't know whether to stay or run. Well i stayed and that was the beginning of that as a means of discipline. Now here's the point. i actually hated the spankings but they were in no way psychologically damaging to me. Quite the opposite...when all was said and done, i actually felt like a new person. So i obviously see this as a positive thing and in no way abusive (for me, that is). No, i did not consent to that first spanking....but i did consent to trying things to see how they went...and i guess that is where i see consent as playing some part, at least in some sense. A couple years later, i started seeing a dom who said he was a spanker but was not allowed that type of ineraction with his former wife of 25 years. He said that once, when she did something very stupid, he took her over his lap and spanked her to tears. She stood up and told him if he ever did that again, she would have him arrested...period. For her, that was abusive. Of course, i had always viewed that as she had not given consent to anything like that in that relationship so of course she would see it as abusive. Same act.....different reaction based on the people involved....which means that spanking in itself is not necessarily an abusive act....but that it is if the person receiving feels it is (by whatever her definition is). i use spanking simply because it is familiar to me but you could use punching and kicking, or you could use rape play...or whatever. For example, although i don't really see myself as into kicking and punching, i could not, at this point, define it as a hard limit. i think i would have to try it first. It was the same with the play rape...had never thought about it before it happened and then just happened to enjoy it when it did. i don't feel i could imagine every single scenario that might be a hard limit for me down the road. i only know the ones i have in place now (which most came about as a result of trying them first...but a couple i knew without trying....that they would be harmful to me). And i felt fortunate to find a partner who understood this.....and that is the type i seek in the future as well. i guess i'm still not quite accepting that without some type of consent, at least initially, to the possibility *that something like this could occur....without at least that understanding.....that something even as minor as a spanking could be construed as abusive.* But i always welcome another perspective to consider. Again, thanks [&:] DG

ownedgirlie -> RE: Abuse and Consent (12/6/2006 6:51:04 PM)
I appreciated your clarity and thoughts in your post, Marie. (And as a side note, I was not trying to "rail" you - I was realizing that this subject is still far too close to home for me to put myself out there like that. Because of some recent happenings, my emotions are still too fresh, so I was regretting posting my originaly reply in the first place.)

adaddysgirl -> RE: Abuse and Consent (12/6/2006 7:03:43 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: KnightofMists To put a twist to the topics and discussions that everyone is having.... Many look at abuse... as causing harm or deminishing a person in some way... a person is some how less after the fact. Another thought that I have had here... is a question of limiting growth/potential. Is it abusive to limit another's natural growth as a person?... is looking at deminishing the existence of a person to narrow of consideration for abuse. I wonder if abuse doen't really start at limiting a person's growth first and then evolves into a deminishing of the person themself? Just more gas for the fire! KoM, What most times goes hand in hand with say, child abuse, is child neglect.....where due to some neglect on the part of the parent, the child also suffers some type of permanent damage. i see now where if a parent allows their minor to not attend school, they can be charged with neglect (not abuse). In a way, your post made me think of this as a means of diminishing a person's growth....possibly a stretch, but something to consider as a possible alternative to abuse...but with similar results. And the more i think of it, if a partner crossed a hard limit once, i am not even sure i would consider that abusive (although i might be inclined to call him an a-hole or something....lol). Even if he knew but tried it anyway, i don't know if that would 'scar' me enough to consider abusive...at least not one time. But if after the act i did have some serious adverse reaction, and he saw that yet continued to cross that line...then yes, that i would consider abusive and might not be able to recover from, nor feel i could continue in the relationship. Ahhh....just some more things to think about! [:)] DG

marieToo -> RE: Abuse and Consent (12/6/2006 7:08:04 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: ownedgirlie I appreciated your clarity and thoughts in your post, Marie. I was not trying to "rail" you - I know. And after re reading the post to which you refered earlier, I can see how it could have been read the way you read it, given the way I layed it out. I really needed to organize my thoughts in order to transfer them from my brain into words. That, for me, is not always easy. In 'speak' its not so bad, but here, in text I find it more difficult to convey what Im actually thinking and it ends up looking like something else. So I came back. :)

ownedgirlie -> RE: Abuse and Consent (12/6/2006 7:56:02 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: marieToo quote: ORIGINAL: ownedgirlie I appreciated your clarity and thoughts in your post, Marie. I was not trying to "rail" you - I know. And after re reading the post to which you refered earlier, I can see how it could have been read the way you read it, given the way I layed it out. I really needed to organize my thoughts in order to transfer them from my brain into words. That, for me, is not always easy. In 'speak' its not so bad, but here, in text I find it more difficult to convey what Im actually thinking and it ends up looking like something else. So I came back. :) I'm glad you did. :) I can also see how you read my original post as you did. What I was sharing in it were the exercises I used to push myself through, to justify that it was *not* abuse I was experiencing, and that if I just tried harder, he would like me better. It's not that I don't think I was in an abusive environment, it's that I was in denial that I was. I thought I was the problem, through and through. It's an ugly place to be in. Thank God I am no longer there.

alandraofMists -> RE: Abuse and Consent (12/7/2006 6:50:17 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: kyraofMists Why do I suddenly have this image in my head of me sitting on a metal chair in a small enclosed room with a one-way mirror, a big spotlight and question after question being fired at me while he thinks more about this and uses me as his sounding board eg Actually, sounds kind of hot, my Lord adds a metal chair to the christmas list for kyra grins alandra

catize -> RE: Abuse and Consent (12/7/2006 5:19:25 PM)
quote: Compassion is the most important emotion in intimate relationships. It contributes far more to happiness than love does. I didn't want to repeat the entire quote, but it all resonated with me. The idea of compassion, along with julietsierra's post on what takes place before (and I would add, after) certainly helps clarify what constitutes abuse or not. Thanks!

Sinergy -> RE: Abuse and Consent (12/7/2006 8:04:35 PM)
Hello A/all, I read a book once called "Love and Addiction" by (if I remember right) Stanton Peel. An interesting read, but it talks about the blurred line between love and devotion to a person, and addictive intoxication to a person that is destructive and codependant. Not implying anything about any of the postings on this thread, just crossed my mind... Sinergy

theRose4U -> RE: Abuse and Consent (12/8/2006 12:40:37 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: mistoferin fast reply.... There is an interesting thread on the "Ask a Master" board. The OP has written to ask about removing his slaves clitoris. The responses are shock and disbelief. He is taking quite a bashing for asking the question. Now he does not say if he has garnered consent from her or not. Possibly as a slave he doesn't need to as he may already have a blanket consent to do with her as he wishes. But I have to ask, for those who think that consent is what makes the difference, if he removes her clit would you think that was abusive? I mean it is not outside the realm of possibility although granted, it's more extreme than most of us here would wish to go. I know of at least one person on these boards who has given serious thought to this in the past...who will remain nameless unless they decide to chime in and give a perspective. In my sexperience knowing how satisfying a clitoral orgasm can be the dude's a freaking dangerous idiot or a sadist to the extreme. Frankly I'd call BS until I heard from a live person that can be verified as not him before I'd even consider it a credible thing. However I was also just readina thread in this section where a master sent a girl to a gang bang then made her abort when she got pregnant. Really makes you wonder how well some people took care of their toys as kids when they feel it's ok to break their human toys that are so numb they reply with blind devotion. Reminds me of that scene out of Eddie Murphy's Coming to America..."I want to get to know you what kind of food do you like", "whatever you like", "I know what kind of food I like, and I know you know what kind of food I like because you're trained to know what I like, so what do you like", "whatever kind of food you like" GAG like a converstion with one of those toys you pull the cord and it can only say 6 things.

theRose4U -> RE: Abuse and Consent (12/8/2006 12:49:59 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: alandraofMists quote: ORIGINAL: kyraofMists Why do I suddenly have this image in my head of me sitting on a metal chair in a small enclosed room with a one-way mirror, a big spotlight and question after question being fired at me while he thinks more about this and uses me as his sounding board eg Actually, sounds kind of hot, my Lord adds a metal chair to the christmas list for kyra grins alandra Gotta make it one of those flimsey hard ones you always seem to get for a really really long meeting. You spend half the time trying not to fall off of it and the rest trying to keep it in one piece.

theRose4U -> RE: Abuse and Consent (12/8/2006 1:02:59 PM)
quote: Is it abusive to limit another's natural growth as a person?... is looking at deminishing the existence of a person to narrow of consideration for abuse. I wonder if abuse doen't really start at limiting a person's growth first and then evolves into a deminishing of the person themself? To answer your second question first, I think it can. The first question even if it's not a natural progression it's a possibility. For some reason my mind goes to the idea of education or career. Very talented student or employee on the fast track to greatness and master steps in and says umm yeah you're my property and property doesn't work...quit now. This looks like the progression to something bad. In itself you have to kind of question the motive in stifling the talent of those in your service. However is this in itself abuse, no. Just the beginning of isolation that seems to grow abuse like fungus.

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