RE: "Forcing" someone (Full Version)

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MmakeMme -> RE: "Forcing" someone (12/5/2006 1:06:55 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: MasterFireMaam

How about the flip side: if you truly didn't want to do something, could you be forced to do it? Edited to add: Do you feel that you have a choice about what you do?



I feel I always have a choice, and fortunately, my Sir reinforces this as well. I am an autonomous mature woman, and I can only serve Him completely if I serve myself first, in a manner of speaking.



HollyS -> RE: "Forcing" someone (12/5/2006 5:41:33 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: MasterFireMaam

What's everyone's opinion about our ability as Masters and Dominants to force someone to do something? Can we really, truly, force anyone to do anything?

How about the flip side: if you truly didn't want to do something, could you be forced to do it? Edited to add: Do you feel that you have a choice about what you do?

My thoughts: In the end, we cannot force anyone to do anything, nor can we be forced if we truly, truly don't want to do it. There are consequences for choosing not to, but, we can choose those. Case in point: you can hold a gun to my head and tell me I have to do something in order to live. I have the choice to do it or be shot. Same thing if you help the gun on someone else and told me that they'd be shot if I didn't comply. It would all depend on what I was willing to "sell" (doing whatever) in order to get what I wanted (life) that would define my willingness to be "forced". But, in the end, it's MY choice to do, or not...not your choice...you've merely uped the ante and have, or haven't, convinced me that it's worth it. 


While we agree that everyone has choices regarding their actions, not all choices are equal. Coercion changes the nature of the final decision made.

Imagine being taken to the edge of a five story cliff and being told by your Owner that you must jump. You can weigh the consequences of jumping (injury or death) vs. disappointment/anger/release from one's Owner for disobeying and decide which you will accept.  

Now imagine the same scenario, but your Owner is holding a gun to your head.  Your choices have now radically changed - possible injury/death vs injury/death.  How free is this choice compared to the previous one? 

If you are seriously hurt or die as a result of jumping, how responsible are you for the result?  If you become a parapelgic as a result of jumping, it fair to say "Well, you made your choice - you have to live with the consequences"?

People like to talk about "free will" when pushing for more personal responsibility in decision making, but not all choices are freely made. There are degrees to which a person can choose as a result of external forces, which can be physical or emotional.

So is there any point where, for you, a person's choice is greatly reduced or even no longer their own?  Food for thought...

~Holly



Kalira -> RE: "Forcing" someone (12/5/2006 5:54:40 PM)

~~ general reply ~~

Why does everyone, when faced with this question, automatically assume that death or serious injury is the ultimate outcome? I am curious about this.

It seems that anytime this question arises, and it does not matter HOW it is worded, it always comes down to the argument of 'are you willing to die for your partner"

/shakes head in confusion

I can't see the reasoning for looking at such extremes. And yes, I know that it DOES happen; but still...come on folks.



DreamyLadySnow -> RE: "Forcing" someone (12/5/2006 6:00:15 PM)

Master Fire
you are absolutely correct. No one can force me to do anything. I figured that out in Junior High gym class..heh heh.
Nor can I force anyone to do anything.
We are born with free will and we die with it.
I mean there are exceptions - if I have someone bound tightly they can't go roller blading and I can keep them indoors. However they let me tie them up.
Likewise a slave can walk away from a relationship, even if she has convinced herself that she can't.
From what I've seen of healthy power exchange relationships, there is no force. It's all free will

LS



HollyS -> RE: "Forcing" someone (12/5/2006 6:07:04 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Kalira

~~ general reply ~~

Why does everyone, when faced with this question, automatically assume that death or serious injury is the ultimate outcome? I am curious about this.

It seems that anytime this question arises, and it does not matter HOW it is worded, it always comes down to the argument of 'are you willing to die for your partner"

I can't see the reasoning for looking at such extremes. And yes, I know that it DOES happen; but still...come on folks.


I raised it because it's a good test of the question and takes it to it's final end. If it bothers you, there are all sorts of other examples I could come up with that put a hypothetical person between a rock and a hard place.  The question was  "Can a person be forced to do something?"  and answers were mostly in favor of "No, it always comes down to your decision, no matter what."  I wanted to put something out there that tests that answer a little bit.

There is no black and white answer to this, IMO, and depends heavily on the circumstances involved.  Do you agree?

~Holly



Kalira -> RE: "Forcing" someone (12/5/2006 7:27:58 PM)

quote:

I raised it because it's a good test of the question and takes it to it's final end

Personally, I don't think its a good question to ask when faced with the question "how far would you go for your partner", mainly because in my own opinion it does not deal in reality.

Taking your own 'final end' as an outcome, are you going to tell me that in a vanilla relationship, when dating someone intensly, that you are going to raise that question with them?

"Oh by the way, is there any chance that you may put a gun to my head and have me do this?"

SERIOUSLY, tell me honestly would you do that? Because if  you feel the need to find out if your partner would go to such extremes, then quite frankly I feel sorry for you.

Relationships are based on compatibility with each other; on liking the same things; on having some sort of equality when it comes to morals and ethics. Vanilla and lifestyle.

quote:

  There is no black and white answer to this, IMO, and depends heavily on the circumstances involved.  Do you agree?

I agree that there is no black and white answer; it is going to depend on each person and the relationship that they have with their partner. Yet, you can bet, that most ( I said most ) take the time to get to know their partner first and never have to question their morals or ethics.

Asking someone who says that they will do what their Dominant/Master asks of them if they would accept death; in my opinion is a slap in the face to their own maturity.



HollyS -> RE: "Forcing" someone (12/5/2006 8:29:03 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Kalira

quote:

I raised it because it's a good test of the question and takes it to it's final end

Personally, I don't think its a good question to ask when faced with the question "how far would you go for your partner", mainly because in my own opinion it does not deal in reality.


I went back to MasterFireMaam's first post just to make sure I was referencing the right question.  I quoted her OP in my first post, but I'll do it again just to be clear:

quote:

ORIGINAL: MasterFireMaam
What's everyone's opinion about our ability as Masters and Dominants to force someone to do something? Can we really, truly, force anyone to do anything?

How about the flip side: if you truly didn't want to do something, could you be forced to do it? Edited to add: Do you feel that you have a choice about what you do?


I don't see anything in there about dating, early relationships or vanilla vs. D/s.  I see a specific question "Do you feel that you have a choice about what you do?" My whole point was that people have varying degrees of choice depending on whether or not they are being coerced (a common element in both vanilla and D/s relationships).

quote:

Taking your own 'final end' as an outcome, are you going to tell me that in a vanilla relationship, when dating someone intensly, that you are going to raise that question with them?   "Oh by the way, is there any chance that you may put a gun to my head and have me do this?"


There's a very old fable that goes like this:
Get a pot of hot water and a frog, then throw the frog into the pot. What do you think will happen? The obvious, of course: the frog will jump out, because the water is too hot. Now try this... get a pot of cold water, put the frog in it, and put the pot on the stove. Turn on the heat. This time something different will happen. The frog, because of the incremental change in temperature, won't notice that it's slowly being boiled to death.
People who find their choices being slowly taken away don't often notice until they are very deep into the relationship.  Refer back to the Abuse and Consent thread and the Master's Temper thread for further clarification.  Can a person be forced into doing something? I'm saying yes, I think a person can under the right circumstances. 

quote:

  I agree that there is no black and white answer; it is going to depend on each person and the relationship that they have with their partner. Yet, you can bet, that most ( I said most ) take the time to get to know their partner first and never have to question their morals or ethics.

Asking someone who says that they will do what their Dominant/Master asks of them if they would accept death; in my opinion is a slap in the face to their own maturity.


Apparantly you've never known anyone who considered "Yes, I would accept death at the word of my Master" a perfectly acceptable answer.  I have.  Maybe you consider them unreasonable -- I know they don't see themselves that way.  Maturity, like most things, is variable.

So again, I go back to the OP and say that yes, I know I am the final arbiter of what choices I make.  But when those choices are made under threat or fear or for lack of any other options, "choice" becomes a dead concept. I thought this was what MasterFireMaam was asking...  my apologies for the diversion if I'm off in left-field.

~Holly



TemptingNviceSub -> RE: "Forcing" someone (12/5/2006 8:53:28 PM)

IMO...This is why one must be cautious to choose from the very beginning a (for want of a better word) reasonable Dominant.Then from there, there should be no force necessary,it should work as teamwork TPE.And then from there,it ultimately comes down to what is the best decision for me?stay and do/or leave?...Tempting



RiotGirl -> RE: "Forcing" someone (12/5/2006 9:08:26 PM)

I think we all have choice, to a degree.  Sometimes the choices are bad and we must choose the lesser of two evils.  Yet its still a choice, a bad choice, not one we would choose on our own and not our own options we would choose.  Its easy to box some one in and force them to make a choice. 

i think its a very grey area. 



Noah -> RE: "Forcing" someone (12/5/2006 11:05:15 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: MasterFireMaam

My thoughts: In the end, we cannot force anyone to do anything, nor can we be forced if we truly, truly don't want to do it. There are consequences for choosing not to, but, we can choose those. Case in point: you can hold a gun to my head and tell me I have to do something in order to live. I have the choice to do it or be shot.



So every act taken under your own power is then consensual?

That would entail that anyone who was ever raped at knife or gunpoint by someone who might not have been able to physically overpower them was not raped after all. They volunteered for consensual sex.

What a quaint notion--not that it doesn't appear with great consistency for most of the history of case law. I thought, though, that we had finally left those dark ages behind.

How about if I put a gun to your best friend's head and tell you to open the cash register and hand me its contents or I'll kill her. Should the owner of the cash register have you arrested for taking the cash out of his box and handing it to an obviously untrustworthy person, since you did it of your own free will, unforced?

Or will you make the free and uncoerced choice to see your friend's head blown off?

Did you ever read The Painted Bird by Jerzy Kosinski? I know someone who once took a very similar trip across Europe. His disdain for people who claim that a free being cannot be forced is hard-earned, bottomless, and in my view perfectly justified.



ownedgirlie -> RE: "Forcing" someone (12/5/2006 11:53:44 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail

Does anyone else like Mortgage Foreclosure play, or am I the only one?

J. P. Morgan



LMAO I'll let you know.  With the way my divorce is working out, I'm about to find out!



Archer -> RE: "Forcing" someone (12/6/2006 12:22:13 AM)

The other problem with most of the hypotheticals mentioned is while the choices offered may only be two the chioces available are multiple. Take the top of the building gun to the head one.
Offred chioces jump be shot in the head
Actual additional options
1.attack the person with the gun hoping to disarm them and accpting the possible outcomes
2.Grab the person and take them with you on the 5 story drop
3. Run hoping that they will miss with their shots and you might get away
there we have 3 additional options the person could choose from, almost never are there only two options, it is a falacy of our culture being focused on either or logic.




timeoutgurlie -> RE: "Forcing" someone (12/6/2006 12:32:41 AM)

I'd have to agree with the OP.  There really is nothing I do without some amount of choice.

I do things I don't particularly *like*, within my relationship and just as an individual, but the way he can "force" me to do anything is from the love for him and desire to make him happy, so it wouldn't fall under force for me so much as sacrifice or compromise, depending on how much I didn't like/want what I were doing.

Same in any other facet of life, I make compromises or sacrifices in what I want/need, but ultimately it's a choice I make and feel I've never been forced into anything.



thetammyjo -> RE: "Forcing" someone (12/6/2006 7:19:32 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Noah


quote:

ORIGINAL: MasterFireMaam

My thoughts: In the end, we cannot force anyone to do anything, nor can we be forced if we truly, truly don't want to do it. There are consequences for choosing not to, but, we can choose those. Case in point: you can hold a gun to my head and tell me I have to do something in order to live. I have the choice to do it or be shot.




So every act taken under your own power is then consensual?

That would entail that anyone who was ever raped at knife or gunpoint by someone who might not have been able to physically overpower them was not raped after all. They volunteered for consensual sex.

What a quaint notion--not that it doesn't appear with great consistency for most of the history of case law. I thought, though, that we had finally left those dark ages behind.

How about if I put a gun to your best friend's head and tell you to open the cash register and hand me its contents or I'll kill her. Should the owner of the cash register have you arrested for taking the cash out of his box and handing it to an obviously untrustworthy person, since you did it of your own free will, unforced?

Or will you make the free and uncoerced choice to see your friend's head blown off?

Did you ever read The Painted Bird by Jerzy Kosinski? I know someone who once took a very similar trip across Europe. His disdain for people who claim that a free being cannot be forced is hard-earned, bottomless, and in my view perfectly justified.



Legally I'm not sure how this plays out but for me if the choices are harmful and damaging then the person doing the harm and the damage is at fault not the one who makes the best choice possible in a given situation.

Or to put it another way, just because one person makes a choice it never negates the choice the other person makes. Coerision does not eliminate the crime or the harm and the person using coerision should be held accountable for committing it.

In terms of consent I see 3 types -- fully informed, unconscious, and survival.

Most of the time I think human beings give unconscious consent. Sometimes we must survive and so we make these hard choices -- checking out (or mentally leaving) is also a choice though usually automatic.

Personally when I'm doing BDSM with someone I want fully informed consent in the initial stages of our relationship -- realistically I know that it often becomes unconscious over time.



NaiveTempest -> RE: "Forcing" someone (12/7/2006 9:33:54 PM)

It is true that there are always choices, but I must agree with those that have posted the argument, extreme as some may view the examples, that force is applied to have a person MAKE those choices when the situation is negative. And that is the thing about force. Is it negative or positive? And in who's opinion? Who's opinion is more important in the situation? There are too many variables. One person's "force" might be another's pleasure. But if the person can be clasified as a victim and the experience be classified as negative, then it doesn't matter that they made that choice, they were FORCED to make one in a situation they normally would have avoided and none of their options (obvious and not so) were ones they would normally not make.
In response to what was stated by Archer, in terms of the extreme examples, when it comes to being in a stressful situation and our fight or flight instincts kick in, it is hard for many to see those "extra choices" that you listed. They're easy to see in retrospect or from the safety of your couch while listening to the story on the news, but when in that situation, it is often the most obvious choices that you see. And this is what the person "forcing" those choices on you wants- for the fear, anguish and stress to cloud your ability to think and see the situation completely. That is why terrorism is so easy. But, there are those souls out there that manage to find those choices in such tense situations and hopefully, eventually all of use will learn to do so. Sorry to go off topic!
My point in all this is, that force does exist, but it is relative to the person(s) and the situation. Hopefully any force a person experiences in their BDSM relationship is positive and maybe not really force at all so much as "persuasive guidance".



slavegirl1969 -> RE: "Forcing" someone (12/7/2006 10:39:12 PM)

I had this conversation with my Owner the other day after he ordered me to do something.  After I was finished he was concerned that I had been forced into doing it (not necessary to say what it was). I explained to him that if I do something he orders me to then its because I want to, I may not be comfortable doing it, it may be totally humiliating or beyond a normal limit, but its still done because I want to and if I really, really didn't want to because every fibre in my body screamed "NO" then I wouldn't and would suffer any consequences that followed.  



Morrigel -> RE: "Forcing" someone (12/8/2006 7:42:51 AM)

Can you force someone to do something?  Absolutely.  Does it create a long-term sustainable dynamic without their consent?  No.  The problem with real force is that once you use it, you can never STOP using it.  If your ability to exert force ever wavers, your authority topples.  This is just as true of individuals as it is of governments and institutions.  All governance is based on a blend of coercion and consent.  The more consent there is, the more cooperation there is, the more stable the dynamic will be.  No one can be controlled for long by any person, institution or a government for which they have no love and from whom they receive nothing but coercive force.

In other words--force most definitely exists.  But it is always a short-sighted strategy.

--M



Dnomyar -> RE: "Forcing" someone (12/8/2006 9:51:53 AM)

Some people are very good at persuation. Is that a form of force?



spankmepink11 -> RE: "Forcing" someone (12/8/2006 1:32:09 PM)

I firmly believe that whether one is slave or submissive, they have a choice.. ultimately....of course i also believe that identifying as a slave does not in reality take away the choice of leaving a relationship, if one finds ones morals or ethics compromised...or  even if  the dynamic is not filling their needs.  But...thats just my opinion.

Out of curiousity... i would be interested in knowing what things people have done that has been against their morals because they were "forced" or ordered to do so.



Sinergy -> RE: "Forcing" someone (12/8/2006 4:43:48 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Archer

In the end you almost always have the choice even with the gun to your head you have the choice, the alternative choice may not be ry much to your liking either but it is there.

Short of being physicly overpowered and physicly moved it seems there is always a choice.



We teach full-contact self defense against the armed assailant (gun, knife, and club).

The thing we tell women taking our first class is "The question we are helping you answer for yourself is "What is worth fighting for?""  The answer usually ends up being the person themself.

When faced with a weapon, the question we help them answer is "What is worth dying for?"  For example, want my car, it is yours.  Want me to get in the car with you (survival statistics doing this plummet) and we are fighting here and now.

There is always a choice, whether or not the person can see it or accept it.

Sinergy



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