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Abuse...why it is so hard to define.... - 12/9/2006 8:13:36 AM   
mistoferin


Posts: 8284
Joined: 10/27/2004
Status: offline 		Abuse is one of those topics that evokes great emotion and frustration. I believe it is because so many of us have had to deal with the issue within our own lives...either as a result of being in an abusive situation or having to defend WIITWD against accusations of abuse.

We seem to be looking for a clear answer and I don't really believe that one exists. We fail because we attempt to define it as falling under the umbrella of one concept. Unfortunately, the issue is far more complicated than any one word or concept can encompass. It is far more individual than any set standard can possibly define.

We have tried to determine if consent is the defining factor. Yet there are many forms of consent and not all of them will nullify the possibility of abuse.

We have tried to determine if intent is what can define it. Yet there are many reasons that intent can be innocent and lacking malice and still result in abuse.

We have tried to determine if extremity of action or pain inflicted or endured will provide us the definition. But all of those things are subjective to the involved individuals.

We have tried to determine if the words safe and sane can be what makes the difference. Again, subjective.

We have tried to determine if health, harm or result is what defines it. Again, subjective.

I don't believe that we will ever be able to find an all encompassing definition as to what constitutes abuse. I believe that we will never find it if we attempt to dissect it using a specific concept. It is only when we take the entire picture into account on an individual basis that we can begin to make any sort of determination...and even then our process is subjective and fallible.

Below is an article I received in email this morning. I believe it makes some good points, especially in regards to the failings of any one concept. I take issue with his general conclusion though, as I believe that it too, does not take into consideration all of the possibilities.
quote:

  
Defining Abuse in Absolute and Total Power Exchange

By Master Eso © 2005


[Mod Note:  paste of article replaced by link to original content]

< Message edited by ModeratorEleven -- 12/9/2006 9:03:11 AM >

_____________________________

Peace and light,
~erin~

There are no victims here...only volunteers.

When you make a habit of playing on the tracks, you thereby forfeit the right to bitch when you get hit by a train.

"I did it! I admit it and I'm gonna do it again!"
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RE: Abuse...why it is so hard to define.... - 12/9/2006 8:25:30 AM   
daddysprop247


Posts: 1712
Joined: 6/24/2005
From: DC Metro area
Status: offline 		have read this before and had several discussions with Master Eso in the past about the issue of defining abuse within APE. i agree entirely with what he defines as a Master's rights, however i don't completely agree with his definition of abuse. someone who unintentionally does things to cause significant harm to their property would be labelled foolish, or ignorant, or troubled, by me, but i would not label such a person "an abuser". i think that intent to harm is what makes an abuser, and therefore is what defines abuse. but another point that many leave out in these discussions is this: is abuse ever appropriate? does a Master ever have the RIGHT to abuse his slave? imo, yes and yes. we have to stop looking at abuse as this universal wrong or evil...it may not be pretty, but in certain relationships (specifically APE/Master/slave), it is an Owner's will and right. 

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RE: Abuse...why it is so hard to define.... - 12/9/2006 8:32:49 AM   
missturbation


Posts: 8290
Joined: 2/12/2006
From: another planet
Status: offline 		however i don't completely agree with his definition of abuse. someone who unintentionally does things to cause significant harm to their property would be labelled foolish, or ignorant, or troubled, by me, but i would not label such a person "an abuser".
I tend to agree with this. There is a difference between intent and none intent.
i think that intent to harm is what makes an abuser, and therefore is what defines abuse.
agreed.
is abuse ever appropriate?
not in the context of this thread where it can lead to severe harm or even death.
does a Master ever have the RIGHT to abuse his slave? imo, yes and yes. we have to stop looking at abuse as this universal wrong or evil...it may not be pretty, but in certain relationships (specifically APE/Master/slave), it is an Owner's will and right. 
Ok, i respect your opinion and choice to make it, but does that mean you are willing to come to severe harm or even die at the hands of your master?
 

_____________________________

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RE: Abuse...why it is so hard to define.... - 12/9/2006 8:37:32 AM   
mistoferin


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quote:

ORIGINAL: missturbation
i think that intent to harm is what makes an abuser, and therefore is what defines abuse.
agreed.


The reason I take issue with his "intent" definition is that there can be "good" intent, or intent not to harm that still results in abuse. It could be a case, as he mentioned, of illness, be it physical or mental....or it could be a case of ignorance or poor information. But the end result may still be abuse.

_____________________________

Peace and light,
~erin~

There are no victims here...only volunteers.

When you make a habit of playing on the tracks, you thereby forfeit the right to bitch when you get hit by a train.

"I did it! I admit it and I'm gonna do it again!"

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RE: Abuse...why it is so hard to define.... - 12/9/2006 8:42:37 AM   
missturbation


Posts: 8290
Joined: 2/12/2006
From: another planet
Status: offline 		"good" intent,

intent not to harm

Hmm i guess i would put those in the not abuse just stupidity or accidental abuse.
Many categories of abuse i would imagine.
 
Hope you'll bear with me on this topic as i find it very confusing and hard to answer.

_____________________________

What you don't witness with your eyes, don't witness with your mouth. Proverb.

If it fit's in a toaster, i can cook it.

Buying 10 item's or less is not shopping !!

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RE: Abuse...why it is so hard to define.... - 12/9/2006 8:44:40 AM   
Lordandmaster


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Status: offline 		The problem with "abuse" is the same problem as with "consent": people are using a legal term in a context where it doesn't apply.  In a courtroom, "abuse" is not difficult to define.  Anywhere else, it's essentially impossible.

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RE: Abuse...why it is so hard to define.... - 12/9/2006 8:49:13 AM   
missturbation


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From: another planet
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lordandmaster

The problem with "abuse" is the same problem as with "consent": people are using a legal term in a context where it doesn't apply.  In a courtroom, "abuse" is not difficult to define.  Anywhere else, it's essentially impossible.


Would this then be one of those things that should be discussed and negotiated between sub/slave and dom/master before embarking on a relationship?
If the opinion varies so greatly on what abuse is then surely that is the only way to maybe reach an agreement concerning it?

_____________________________

What you don't witness with your eyes, don't witness with your mouth. Proverb.

If it fit's in a toaster, i can cook it.

Buying 10 item's or less is not shopping !!

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RE: Abuse...why it is so hard to define.... - 12/9/2006 8:53:30 AM   
Lordandmaster


Posts: 10943
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Status: offline 		I'm not a big negotiator (I'm more of a my-way-or-the-highway type), but yes, that's something you should clarify before you get involved with someone.

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RE: Abuse...why it is so hard to define.... - 12/9/2006 8:54:06 AM   
daddysprop247


Posts: 1712
Joined: 6/24/2005
From: DC Metro area
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: missturbation

however i don't completely agree with his definition of abuse. someone who unintentionally does things to cause significant harm to their property would be labelled foolish, or ignorant, or troubled, by me, but i would not label such a person "an abuser".
I tend to agree with this. There is a difference between intent and none intent.
i think that intent to harm is what makes an abuser, and therefore is what defines abuse.
agreed.
is abuse ever appropriate?
not in the context of this thread where it can lead to severe harm or even death.
does a Master ever have the RIGHT to abuse his slave? imo, yes and yes. we have to stop looking at abuse as this universal wrong or evil...it may not be pretty, but in certain relationships (specifically APE/Master/slave), it is an Owner's will and right. 
Ok, i respect your opinion and choice to make it, but does that mean you are willing to come to severe harm or even die at the hands of your master?
 


it's not about what i'm "willing" to do or to have done to me. it's about my Master's will. and if his will were to take my life, that is HIS will, and his right as Master.

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RE: Abuse...why it is so hard to define.... - 12/9/2006 9:02:52 AM   
LuckyAlbatross


Posts: 19224
Joined: 10/25/2005
Status: offline 		I don't think we can go solely on intent.  A man can say "I didn't INTEND to hurt her" twenty times in twenty days.  That doesn't mean he didn't abuse her twenty times in twenty days.  Especially when it comes to alcoholics and addicts and people with mood disorders, their issues can severly alter their perception of their motives- they are highly selfish and self absorbed but see themselves as constant martyrs and people giving sacrifice. 

We must also go on the perception of the abused.  This unfortunately only complicates matters- and sometimes when the persons intent is truly NOT to abuse, and may be considered by many people NOT to be abuse- if THAT person at THAT time considers it abuse...we have to go with that.  At least in terms of helping them heal themselves.

_____________________________

Find stable partners, not a stable of partners.

"Sometimes my whore logic gets all fuzzy"- Californication

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RE: Abuse...why it is so hard to define.... - 12/9/2006 9:12:38 AM   
missturbation


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Joined: 2/12/2006
From: another planet
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quote:

ORIGINAL: daddysprop247

quote:

ORIGINAL: missturbation

however i don't completely agree with his definition of abuse. someone who unintentionally does things to cause significant harm to their property would be labelled foolish, or ignorant, or troubled, by me, but i would not label such a person "an abuser".
I tend to agree with this. There is a difference between intent and none intent.
i think that intent to harm is what makes an abuser, and therefore is what defines abuse.
agreed.
is abuse ever appropriate?
not in the context of this thread where it can lead to severe harm or even death.
does a Master ever have the RIGHT to abuse his slave? imo, yes and yes. we have to stop looking at abuse as this universal wrong or evil...it may not be pretty, but in certain relationships (specifically APE/Master/slave), it is an Owner's will and right. 
Ok, i respect your opinion and choice to make it, but does that mean you are willing to come to severe harm or even die at the hands of your master?
 


it's not about what i'm "willing" to do or to have done to me. it's about my Master's will. and if his will were to take my life, that is HIS will, and his right as Master.


Well i have to say i admire your strength and determination to submit so completely from what you have said in this thread and others. However if you are willing to die for his right to abuse you then it is to me about your will too. You are willing to die if if that is his choice.
Good luck to you

_____________________________

What you don't witness with your eyes, don't witness with your mouth. Proverb.

If it fit's in a toaster, i can cook it.

Buying 10 item's or less is not shopping !!

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RE: Abuse...why it is so hard to define.... - 12/9/2006 9:14:52 AM   
mistoferin


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Joined: 10/27/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: LuckyAlbatross

I don't think we can go solely on intent.  A man can say "I didn't INTEND to hurt her" twenty times in twenty days.  That doesn't mean he didn't abuse her twenty times in twenty days.  Especially when it comes to alcoholics and addicts and people with mood disorders, their issues can severly alter their perception of their motives- they are highly selfish and self absorbed but see themselves as constant martyrs and people giving sacrifice. 

We must also go on the perception of the abused.  This unfortunately only complicates matters- and sometimes when the persons intent is truly NOT to abuse, and may be considered by many people NOT to be abuse- if THAT person at THAT time considers it abuse...we have to go with that.  At least in terms of helping them heal themselves.


Agree. Once again though....many will read this post and will still try to define abuse by a single contributing factor. We look at things such as consent, intent, harm.....as seperate entitities and then try to say they make a "whole, encompassing" definition. It simply will not work.

_____________________________

Peace and light,
~erin~

There are no victims here...only volunteers.

When you make a habit of playing on the tracks, you thereby forfeit the right to bitch when you get hit by a train.

"I did it! I admit it and I'm gonna do it again!"

(in reply to LuckyAlbatross)
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RE: Abuse...why it is so hard to define.... - 12/9/2006 9:27:09 AM   
daddysprop247


Posts: 1712
Joined: 6/24/2005
From: DC Metro area
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: missturbation

[


it's not about what i'm "willing" to do or to have done to me. it's about my Master's will. and if his will were to take my life, that is HIS will, and his right as Master.


Well i have to say i admire your strength and determination to submit so completely from what you have said in this thread and others. However if you are willing to die for his right to abuse you then it is to me about your will too. You are willing to die if if that is his choice.
Good luck to you


thanks, but strength and determination really don't have much to do with it. the key is in acceptance ...it took me a minute to get there, but once i truly accepted my place in life...really and fully accepted that i belong to someone else, i have no rights, my "will" is no longer relevant, etc...life became much easier (still not easy mind you, but easier), and i found an inner peace.

but when you say above "you are willing to do if that is his choice"...that tells me you do not fully understand the powerlessness of a slave. it does not matter if i am willing or unwilling to do or bear something...if that's what my Master wants, he will make it happen, by whatever means necessary.

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RE: Abuse...why it is so hard to define.... - 12/9/2006 9:29:47 AM   
daddysprop247


Posts: 1712
Joined: 6/24/2005
From: DC Metro area
Status: offline 		mistoferin...i have a question for you if you don't mind....since it's been established that no group of people will ever come to a conconsensus as to what exactly constitutes abuse, do you feel that abuse ever has a place in the D/s or bdsm lifestyle(particularly within TPE/APE as described in your first post)?

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RE: Abuse...why it is so hard to define.... - 12/9/2006 9:31:38 AM   
Kalira


Posts: 954
Joined: 10/9/2006
From: Fort Wayne Indiana
Status: offline
quote:

i think that intent to harm is what makes an abuser, and therefore is what defines abuse. 

I can agree with this. If the intent behind the action is to seriously injure or permantly damage a slave ( emotionally, or physically ) , then yes, I would define it as abuse and I would call the person an abuser.

However, there are times with Master that he does something intentionally that does harm me, for reasons of correction or discipline. His intent here, while using extreme pain emotionally and physically, is not to do actual damage, but rather to correct something that he sees as wrong in my behavior. This, I do not look upon as abuse.

I gave up control to Master; I gave up all rights when I agreed to become his property. If he wishes to intentionally beat me raw in an effort to keep me in my proper place, then he has that right. If Master wishes me to do something that I absolutly abhor, and refuse to do...he has the right as my owner to force me into compliance and submission.

By accepting HIS terms for this relationship, I gave him these rights over me. What's more, I gave him permission to excercise them at any time he see's fit to do so.

What many do not understand about this is that some of us walk into relationships of this kind with our eyes wide open; knowing what the restrictions, rules, and punishment for disobedience would be. It does not make our owners abusers; nor does it make us abused though.

edited because I can not spell

< Message edited by Kalira -- 12/9/2006 9:32:55 AM >

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RE: Abuse...why it is so hard to define.... - 12/9/2006 9:33:01 AM   
LuckyAlbatross


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Joined: 10/25/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: mistoferin
Agree. Once again though....many will read this post and will still try to define abuse by a single contributing factor. We look at things such as consent, intent, harm.....as seperate entitities and then try to say they make a "whole, encompassing" definition. It simply will not work.

Agreed as well.

We also have two issues to consider AFTER the "abuse" occurs- one is helping the abused heal and move on, the other is deciding what, if any, actions the abuser should be held accountable for and punished for.

I know lots of people like to put the two together, but I'm really not certain that one goes with the other. 

_____________________________

Find stable partners, not a stable of partners.

"Sometimes my whore logic gets all fuzzy"- Californication

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RE: Abuse...why it is so hard to define.... - 12/9/2006 9:51:46 AM   
ownedgirlie


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quote:

ORIGINAL: LuckyAlbatross

quote:

ORIGINAL: mistoferin
Agree. Once again though....many will read this post and will still try to define abuse by a single contributing factor. We look at things such as consent, intent, harm.....as seperate entitities and then try to say they make a "whole, encompassing" definition. It simply will not work.

Agreed as well.

We also have two issues to consider AFTER the "abuse" occurs- one is helping the abused heal and move on, the other is deciding what, if any, actions the abuser should be held accountable for and punished for.

I know lots of people like to put the two together, but I'm really not certain that one goes with the other. 

I bolded one of your sentences for emphasis.  I believe these are two seperate beasts.  Healing from abuse can be a horrible, painful, and very long process.  I am going through it myself.  But he will probably never be held accountable for his actions.  Who would he be accountable to?  I'm not filing charges; I am getting on with my life.  He is a sick, narcissistic and dilusional man.  Three therapists told him he was abusive.  He argued it.  He will look me straight in the eye when I tell him I feel abused by him, and say "Well you're wrong, and I have the facts to know that." 

So I must take responsibility for my own healing, and I am doing so, with the help of my Master, friends who are better to me than I deserve, and therapy.  :)  What happens to him should be of no consequence to me - that's the trap I am working to get out of.  My focus should be on being in the present, and on my road ahead.  Not on the evils of the past.  My road ahead means letting go of those past evils, but that does not mean living in the past (great Jethro Tull song, btw) or dwelling on it.  The abused must work on healing whether or not the abuser faces the music.  Once the abused can emotionally separate him/herself from the abuser, he/she can begin that path.

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RE: Abuse...why it is so hard to define.... - 12/9/2006 10:14:53 AM   
DreamyLadySnow


Posts: 359
Joined: 1/23/2005
Status: offline 		I once led a workshop on abuse within bdsm.There is a ton of very good information on the internet.
Basically what it came down to, for me was this:

Are both people in control of themself?
Is the bottom/Top being harmed?
Is the behavior making the relationship better, or worse?
Do both sides respect themselves and each other?
Is there a pattern to the questionable behavior?
Do both sides accept responsibility for their own actions or is the partner blamed incorrectly?

I am not a professional counsellor of any sort, but I think healthy behavior can survive those questions. Abuse happens on both sides, not just the Top's. I have met some damm nasty, dysfunctional, abusive bottoms.

Because of the types of things that we do, and agree to, it's very hard to look at someone's relationship and say that this or that is abusive. Maybe they like it? We need to decide for ourselves what is acceptable in all of our relationships, not just the primary ones, learn to take care of ourselves and treat each other gently.

Just my two cents,

LS


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RE: Abuse...why it is so hard to define.... - 12/9/2006 10:18:30 AM   
mistoferin


Posts: 8284
Joined: 10/27/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: daddysprop247
mistoferin...i have a question for you if you don't mind....since it's been established that no group of people will ever come to a conconsensus as to what exactly constitutes abuse, do you feel that abuse ever has a place in the D/s or bdsm lifestyle(particularly within TPE/APE as described in your first post)?


prop,
Again, I can't give a definitive answer because I don't think it would fit across the board. "Ever"? Let me say maybe in some rare instances. For me it really depends more upon the involved individuals and the human being who comes out on the other side of it. That will probably not make sense to many.

I struggle very hard with many of the dynamics of your personal relationship to be very honest. It's not so much about what you and your Master do or believe in....but the impact I fear that your words may have on someone who is not as well equipped to sort through it and make their own rational decisions in regards to it. I try very hard, although I am not always successful, to attempt to not be derogatory in regards to it. I would have to think though, that you both realize what an exception to the norm you are. I find that I listen over time to the things that you have to say. Many of the things you relate, while they may personally squick me right the hell out, you relate from a perspective that gives the impression that you have given great consideration to. As bizarre as some of it strikes me....sometimes you convince me it's indeed what is right for you.

Now that said, I have to say that many of the things you speak of, if I had to think of those same exact identical things and try to associate them with some of the others here on the boards, I would indeed be extremely concerned. There are many posters here who have shown a history of an inability to make sound decisions in regard to themselves and their relationships in a consistent manner. So, if I tried to apply the same dynamics to their situation....I would have a completely different view.

In speaking with LA the other day about the "removal of clitoris" thread, although I can't personally wrap my head around a situation why anyone would ever seriously consider such, I expressed to her that if she were to come out and announce that she had made that choice I would be very comfortable with it. That is because I have come to, over time, realize that LA possesses all of the faculties and decision making skills to make such a decision from a healthy (for her) perspective. If a different poster expressed the same thing I would most likely suggest serious therapy.

< Message edited by mistoferin -- 12/9/2006 10:29:37 AM >

_____________________________

Peace and light,
~erin~

There are no victims here...only volunteers.

When you make a habit of playing on the tracks, you thereby forfeit the right to bitch when you get hit by a train.

"I did it! I admit it and I'm gonna do it again!"

(in reply to daddysprop247)
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RE: Abuse...why it is so hard to define.... - 12/9/2006 10:55:43 AM   
agirl


Posts: 4530
Joined: 6/14/2004
Status: offline 		Abuse is a word that I'd use sparingly and the dictionary definition isn't a good enough guide where human interaction is concerned.

There are extreme cases of ill-treatment that most would be able to call *abuse*......ie...thrashing a small child to within an inch of it's life..... but it's not going to be clear-cut in many, many other situations.

One person's idea of abuse is another's idea of selfishness, thoughtlessness or ignorance and so on. It's just so incredibly subjective.

I prefer to lay aside the word *abuse* itself and look at things in a situational way. There's a raft of language to describe behaviour without getting hung up on one word.

agirl









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