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RE: Punishing Masochists - 12/11/2006 11:55:20 AM   
LotusSong


Posts: 6334
Joined: 7/2/2006
From: Domme Emeritus
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: FelinePersuasion

Actually not to get off topic here, but in my relation ships deciding not to contact me for punishment is not allowed, and is grounds to break my trust in my dom and make him a single dom. In my relationships it's a serious offense to withdraw any contact with them, And it makes a behavior worse not better. I had a dom who's method of dealing with things was simply not to deal, and left to brude I became pychically ill from the stress mentally and emotionally of being unable to stop crying for days and days, the fear of being released over a simple slip up yada yada. so I make it quite clear up front ignoreing me and withdrawing from me will not be tolerated. And fortunatly my new Dom agree's with drawing is NOT an apropriate method for us.
quote:

ORIGINAL: Aine

Ideas that I personally think would work well for anyone, not just masochists are things like lack of physical contact with their Dominant, silence from their Dominant,



The reason I was not the one punishing hims was for a couple reasons.  If I were to do it, he would have taken it to the extreme.  Having a mutual friends of our (my Domme buddy) do it, was actually  hard on both.  She didn't realize hew sad it made her feel until afterward.  I never anticipated the reaction (live and learn- do your own damn punishment )
 
The tone was "I was so pissed I didn't even want to touch him".  I wanted him to know what it would be like without me.  The punishment didn't even compare with the mental anguish.




_____________________________

Life Lesson #1

I'm not your type.
I'm not inflatable.


(in reply to FelinePersuasion)
Profile   Post #: 41
RE: Punishing Masochists - 12/11/2006 11:59:26 AM   
LotusSong


Posts: 6334
Joined: 7/2/2006
From: Domme Emeritus
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: LeMis

WOW, reading this brought tears to my eyes and a heavy heart.
Thanks for sharing.


I did for me also.  I've never been this heavy handed since.  And yes, when we met on vanilla terms I apologized profusely.. he said he deserved it.. I told him ..no..he didn't... sort of like the two chipmunk buddy in that cartoon where they are overly polite to the extreme.. "You go first.. No, you.. But I insist... Not at all, please go.. etc"
 
He did journal this and that clarified to me he was  OK.

_____________________________

Life Lesson #1

I'm not your type.
I'm not inflatable.


(in reply to LeMis)
Profile   Post #: 42
RE: Punishing Masochists - 12/11/2006 2:11:30 PM   
Petruchio


Posts: 1615
Joined: 2/6/2005
Status: offline 		Old French saying:

"Whip me," said the masochist.

"No," said the sadist.

































(in reply to LotusSong)
Profile   Post #: 43
RE: Punishing Masochists - 12/11/2006 4:47:43 PM   
swtnsparkling


Posts: 1738
Joined: 1/1/2004
Status: offline 		FR-
quote:

But punishment in the context of trying to actually correct a behavior issue.....nope....just don't get it. In my own personal opinion, we are supposed to be responsible adults here. Responsible adults hold themselves accountable for their actions. They make mistakes and they learn from making those mistakes. If you are in a relationship, chances are that you have a desire to make that a fulfilling experience for you and your partner. We all make mistakes from time to time. That should negate the need for punishment.

If you are a person who can not control yourself and your behavior and find that you need to be punished in order to learn lessons or just stay in line....I would suggest that you lack the maturity to be in an adult relationship.   


Just a boreing reply from me-  my opinion stands with the above post

_____________________________

Never make anyone a priority who treats you as an option 2003

Walk in Peace
A "No" uttered from deepest conviction is better than a "Yes" uttered merely to please



(in reply to Petruchio)
Profile   Post #: 44
RE: Punishing Masochists - 12/11/2006 4:54:05 PM   
blondBBWsub


Posts: 18
Joined: 6/5/2005
Status: offline 		Petruchio!!! You made me laugh!  I so see the point! LOL!

(in reply to swtnsparkling)
Profile   Post #: 45
RE: Punishing Masochists - 12/11/2006 5:09:16 PM   
shadevarr


Posts: 360
Joined: 7/2/2006
Status: offline 		quick reply to OP: Masochists are not that hard, either tie them up and go and them full strength without rhythm or isolate them for a few hours. Hell, I've had one really unruly sub that I had to punish by having her chained to the toilet for a day and a half. Door was locked and I left enough food in there when I locked her up that she would be ok. Granted, I did listen at the door frequently to make sure she was ok, mostly there was sobbing.

(in reply to LotusSong)
Profile   Post #: 46
RE: Punishing Masochists - 12/11/2006 5:20:33 PM   
Aine


Posts: 820
Joined: 4/12/2005
Status: offline 		Honestly, it's punishments like this that I don't understand.

Then again, the first image that comes to mind is of your typical movie-themed scene of a person handcuffed with their arms around the base of the toilet.

Going on that image, that just -can't- be good on the body, I know for me, that situation would be detrimental to my back problems.  Also it would impede bladder and bowel control....which leads me to the possibility of being tied to it while sitting on the throne.

Which ain't good for circulation, that's for sure.

And I'm going on the hope that my benefit of the doubt is well placed.

Perhaps tied to it with enough freedom of movement to be able to sit to go, or curl up on the floor to sleep, freedom of movement enough to not lose circulation, all that kind of possibly medically bad kinda stuff.

Certainly not for a full day and a half.

I can see short term use of situations like that, not something like a day and a half.

Please don't see this as a kind of attack, I'm honestly curious.  It's my technical and rational side that tends to make my head spin when trying to apply rationale to something that seems more like a played out scene at first glance.


_____________________________

Honey, you obviously missed the "want to be used as a toilet fetish" thread or "where do I get instructions on setting my sub on fire" thread. LOL

Thank you, DelRay for that one.

(in reply to shadevarr)
Profile   Post #: 47
RE: Punishing Masochists - 12/11/2006 5:48:45 PM   
CreativeDominant


Posts: 11032
Joined: 3/11/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Mavis

yanno, i often read "my worst punishment is just knowing i have dissapointed Master, Mistress, Dom, Domme"   and i just cannot relate to that.

i hate knowing i have dissapointed the Hims, but i am pretty realisitc..  i have dissappinted Them, and others, countless times, and i will do so again.  It's not a fearful, disgusting, scarey or uncomfortable thing for me even.  Dissapointing our loved ones ..  just..  is. 

i need consequence.  Natural consequence is a good reminder for me, and physical or not, something that brings cathartic release helps me move from one place to another in ways that "having dissappinted" never does. 

i suppose to a Dominant ear, that sounds like a laisse' faire attitude, "Oh, dissapointed You say?  Welp, been there, done that!".. but it's honest.  if humans really quaked at angering our loved ones the way most submissives claim to,  there would be no divorce, no dissention ever, and all Dominant partners would live and die happy with the first sub or slave they took on.  How fantasy is that?


Thank you for saying this.  I am also a realist who has seen that my actions result in consequences...bad actions = bad consequences and good actions = good consequences.

I know that having done something that disappointed my partner made me feel guilty.  But that guilt was not in itself enough to induce me to change my behavior.  But when I learned that there were serious consequences to be gained from my bad behaviors, then I learned from those consequences.  In my case, those consequences were made more painful by bitter and spiteful and vengeful punishment meted out by my partner but punishment does not have to be vengeful or spiteful or bitter.  It can be thoughtful and delivered in a manner that a responsible adult learns from it.

Personally, I think that there is too much thinking that there should not be bad consequences (other than bad/hurt/disappointed feelings) for actions undertaken.  I think that is why some people are so surprised when they find themselves fired rather than talked to, left rather than argued with (again), etc.. 

(in reply to Mavis)
Profile   Post #: 48
RE: Punishing Masochists - 12/11/2006 7:27:43 PM   
KnightofMists


Posts: 7149
Joined: 7/29/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: mistoferin

But punishment in the context of trying to actually correct a behavior issue.....nope....just don't get it. In my own personal opinion, we are supposed to be responsible adults here. Responsible adults hold themselves accountable for their actions. They make mistakes and they learn from making those mistakes. If you are in a relationship, chances are that you have a desire to make that a fulfilling experience for you and your partner. We all make mistakes from time to time. That should negate the need for punishment.


sometimes... a person accepting punishment is indeed holding themselves accountable for their actions.

sometimes... a person makes mistakes and part of the process of learning from the mistake is to accept punishment for it.

I do not agree or even like the implication that because a person is punished that they are an "irresponsible adult" as compared to a person that is not punished are somehow are "responsible adult".  I would argue that Accepting Punishment is very much like Accepting Consequences and taking responsibility for ones mistakes.

We each as individuals have different approaches on holding ourselves accountable to our mistakes and effect behavioural changes to avoid the mistakes in the future. 

Also, I find that many focus soley on the Accepting of Responsibility for the mistake or wrong doing.  There is also a whole other part called Reconcilation/Forgiveness.

Sometimes... punishement provides a catharsis experience for those in the relationship.  Others find other means to reach that.



quote:


If you are a person who can not control yourself and your behavior and find that you need to be punished in order to learn lessons or just stay in line....I would suggest that you lack the maturity to be in an adult relationship.


the implication here is that a person that needs punishment in their relationship dynamic is somehow a person that is out of control. 

Well as you said... we all mistakes and will learn lessons from them and sometimes punishments are a useful tool for these individuals.  It has nothing to do with them being out of control or that they need it to stay in line.  However, I do agree that in some cases... individuals that need punishment to stay in control or in line are ripe of co-dependency style relationships.  It is a difficult task to understand the difference of constructive punishment dynamics and destructive punishment dynamics.

Having said all that... punishment is not my approach... since I find that there is much more effective approaches.

_____________________________

Knight of Mists

An Optimal relationship is achieved when the individuals do what is best for themselves and their relationship.

(in reply to mistoferin)
Profile   Post #: 49
RE: Punishing Masochists - 12/11/2006 8:16:39 PM   
Aine


Posts: 820
Joined: 4/12/2005
Status: offline 		Very well said.  I agree wholeheartedly, I just wish I could have said it *grins*

Sometimes words fail me.

I see it similarly to when we get in trouble say.....at work for being late too many times.

Sometimes we have really honest reasons for being late (sick kids, pet problems, etc) and we suffer those repercussions at our jobs, ie: punishment.  Some people have to deal with docked paychecks or something, put on probation for a short period of time, etc.

I'd have to say that most all here in this particular thread are probably very responsible and in control of themselves for the most part.  But we're human, we slip up.  I personally feel that in relationships, with or without a D/s dynamic has to deal with slip ups just the same.  And we all deal with the consequences.  Some people term it consequences, some term it punishments.

When two people fight over something one of them has done, I would consider the emotional toil is a form of punishment, whether we induce it upon ourselves for our infraction or it's the anger/sadness/betrayal conveyed to us by our partners.  Sometimes those vanilla couples cancel plans, take a couple days apart, make the other sleep on the couch as punishment for whatever might have happened.

How is that all that different from some of the punishments (consequenses) we bring upon ourselves in our D/s based relationships when one has done something wrong?

But then again, that brings up a whole new subject as to what kinds of punishments should be meted out and what's either not stringent enough or is too much.


_____________________________

Honey, you obviously missed the "want to be used as a toilet fetish" thread or "where do I get instructions on setting my sub on fire" thread. LOL

Thank you, DelRay for that one.

(in reply to KnightofMists)
Profile   Post #: 50
RE: Punishing Masochists - 12/11/2006 8:22:12 PM   
akisha


Posts: 2071
Joined: 6/25/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: MasterNdorei

One look of disapointment, and i am punished. Anything that happens beyond that is to either clear my conscience, or allow Master to express His frustration.

Because His happiness really IS the most important thing to me, and i am devastated to have provided less, He can use the same actions He rewards with, or He can use others... it is the mindset that makes the difference with U/us.

Humbly,
Master's dorei


My thoughts exactly. It's knowing you disappointed that hurts worse then anything else.

_____________________________

I'm confused.... No wait!!! Maybe I'm not

It's not a blonde moment! It's momentary peroxide posioning. ;)

Your pain makes me smile ~ Happy Bunny

532-095-649

(in reply to MasterNdorei)
Profile   Post #: 51
RE: Punishing Masochists - 12/11/2006 8:28:46 PM   
Daddysredhead


Posts: 23574
Joined: 11/6/2005
From: Northern (yet still part of the South) Virginia
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Mavis

yanno, i often read "my worst punishment is just knowing i have dissapointed Master, Mistress, Dom, Domme"   and i just cannot relate to that.

i hate knowing i have dissapointed the Hims, but i am pretty realisitc..  i have dissappinted Them, and others, countless times, and i will do so again.  It's not a fearful, disgusting, scarey or uncomfortable thing for me even.  Dissapointing our loved ones ..  just..  is. 

i need consequence.  Natural consequence is a good reminder for me, and physical or not, something that brings cathartic release helps me move from one place to another in ways that "having dissappinted" never does. 

i suppose to a Dominant ear, that sounds like a laisse' faire attitude, "Oh, dissapointed You say?  Welp, been there, done that!".. but it's honest.  if humans really quaked at angering our loved ones the way most submissives claim to,  there would be no divorce, no dissention ever, and all Dominant partners would live and die happy with the first sub or slave they took on.  How fantasy is that?


I concur.  It's just the way I feel at times, not every time.  I explained this to my Master and He said He could kind of understand what I meant, but that consequences would still come.  I further explained that I knew that, and accepted the consequences, but I just wasn't going to fall apart because I fell short.  I had another sub tell me that I was a "brat" for that attitude.  Perhaps, perhaps not.  Honestly, another person's opinion of my attitude just doesn't bother me one way or the other.  (Unless that person is my Master, and even then, He lets me express my mind to Him as long as it is respectfully done.)

_____________________________

Founding Member, Clan of the Scarlet O'Hair-a's

Do not challenge me to a battle of wits & come to fight unarmed.

Are you really that stupid? ~ Bless your heart

13th doughnut


(in reply to Mavis)
Profile   Post #: 52
RE: Punishing Masochists - 12/11/2006 8:42:40 PM   
Daddysredhead


Posts: 23574
Joined: 11/6/2005
From: Northern (yet still part of the South) Virginia
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: KnightofMists

quote:

ORIGINAL: mistoferin

But punishment in the context of trying to actually correct a behavior issue.....nope....just don't get it. In my own personal opinion, we are supposed to be responsible adults here. Responsible adults hold themselves accountable for their actions. They make mistakes and they learn from making those mistakes. If you are in a relationship, chances are that you have a desire to make that a fulfilling experience for you and your partner. We all make mistakes from time to time. That should negate the need for punishment.


sometimes... a person accepting punishment is indeed holding themselves accountable for their actions.

sometimes... a person makes mistakes and part of the process of learning from the mistake is to accept punishment for it.

I do not agree or even like the implication that because a person is punished that they are an "irresponsible adult" as compared to a person that is not punished are somehow are "responsible adult".  I would argue that Accepting Punishment is very much like Accepting Consequences and taking responsibility for ones mistakes.

We each as individuals have different approaches on holding ourselves accountable to our mistakes and effect behavioural changes to avoid the mistakes in the future. 

Also, I find that many focus soley on the Accepting of Responsibility for the mistake or wrong doing.  There is also a whole other part called Reconcilation/Forgiveness.

Sometimes... punishement provides a catharsis experience for those in the relationship.  Others find other means to reach that.



quote:


If you are a person who can not control yourself and your behavior and find that you need to be punished in order to learn lessons or just stay in line....I would suggest that you lack the maturity to be in an adult relationship.


the implication here is that a person that needs punishment in their relationship dynamic is somehow a person that is out of control. 

Well as you said... we all mistakes and will learn lessons from them and sometimes punishments are a useful tool for these individuals.  It has nothing to do with them being out of control or that they need it to stay in line.  However, I do agree that in some cases... individuals that need punishment to stay in control or in line are ripe of co-dependency style relationships.  It is a difficult task to understand the difference of constructive punishment dynamics and destructive punishment dynamics.

Having said all that... punishment is not my approach... since I find that there is much more effective approaches.


This line of thinking, KoM, is basically how my Master and I view the subject. 

_____________________________

Founding Member, Clan of the Scarlet O'Hair-a's

Do not challenge me to a battle of wits & come to fight unarmed.

Are you really that stupid? ~ Bless your heart

13th doughnut


(in reply to KnightofMists)
Profile   Post #: 53
RE: Punishing Masochists - 12/12/2006 6:25:29 AM   
LeatherBentOne


Posts: 469
Joined: 9/27/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: whisperedsighs

quote:

ORIGINAL: mistoferin

I apologize LotusSong....and anyone else who takes offense at this but this topic drives me up a wall.

I can understand "punishment" when it is done in the context of "oh you bad girl, you did______.....you know you're going to have to be punished now...drop your drawers and come here". It's a great reason to have an impromptu scene.

But punishment in the context of trying to actually correct a behavior issue.....nope....just don't get it. In my own personal opinion, we are supposed to be responsible adults here. Responsible adults hold themselves accountable for their actions. They make mistakes and they learn from making those mistakes. If you are in a relationship, chances are that you have a desire to make that a fulfilling experience for you and your partner. We all make mistakes from time to time. That should negate the need for punishment.

If you are a person who can not control yourself and your behavior and find that you need to be punished in order to learn lessons or just stay in line....I would suggest that you lack the maturity to be in an adult relationship.


I agree with this point of view up to a point.  Let me play devils' advocate here though and suggest another idea.  Many times BDSM allows us forms of cathartic therapy.  How wonderful it is to recieve punishment, and when the punishment is done, the issue is resolved unless it comes up again.  I think it an interesting alternative way to view punishment.  This idea may not work for everyone, but I can see the value of it.


I'd like to add another dimension to punishment.  I prefer to make the punishment "fit the crime" in intensity, duration and lessons learned.  Within that framework, I try to execute punishment that resulting in changing behavior. 

For example:  if my sub fails to always have something to drink at my side, I will get up and get something to drink myself, denying her the pleasure to serve me, for I expect service.  I don't demand service or coerce service; I expect my sub to give her service from her heart.  When she is denied this pleasure, her face reddens, her eyes go to the floor, she utters an apology.  I say something to the effect, "No problem. I'm not crippled.  I can do my job as well as I can do yours if need be, but Id much rather you do it."

Of couse, this is a very minor infraction and with bigger issues, I teach my sub that there are always consequences to her actions, whether they be of a positive or negative connotation, depends on her.  I'm not here to micromanage my sub and I trust that if she "knowingly" decides to receive a consequence of negative connotation, she must take ownership for her actions or lack, thereof.  To me, this is punishment enough, a lesson to be learned and something to think about in the future when she is tempted, rather than random punishment that serves no purpose in making her a better person and/or a better submissive to me.

LBO

(in reply to whisperedsighs)
Profile   Post #: 54
RE: Punishing Masochists - 12/12/2006 11:59:27 PM   
Mikal


Posts: 3673
Status: offline 		Go vanilla on their butt. Not literaly (well, I guess you could, but vanilla is pricey and it seems a waste), but relationship wise. *grins* Tell them they've destroyed your love of kink, and you have returned to the light side. For good. Then act horrified when they try to woo you back or suggest anything not purely vanilla. 
 
Actually, I think this would work for just about any type of person here...

_____________________________

You know that I am a sexy penguin.

(in reply to LeatherBentOne)
Profile   Post #: 55
RE: Punishing Masochists - 12/13/2006 12:08:02 AM   
FelinePersuasion


Posts: 4792
Joined: 11/20/2004
Status: offline 		No worries Lotus, I wasn't implying you ignored him or something.  I was responding to Aine and sharing a bit of my experince with a withdraw of attention, course my X decided for like a week in a half not to speak with me. You and your guy delt with it  reasonably soon:)

quote:

ORIGINAL: LotusSong

quote:

ORIGINAL: FelinePersuasion

Actually not to get off topic here, but in my relation ships deciding not to contact me for punishment is not allowed, and is grounds to break my trust in my dom and make him a single dom. In my relationships it's a serious offense to withdraw any contact with them, And it makes a behavior worse not better. I had a dom who's method of dealing with things was simply not to deal, and left to brude I became pychically ill from the stress mentally and emotionally of being unable to stop crying for days and days, the fear of being released over a simple slip up yada yada. so I make it quite clear up front ignoreing me and withdrawing from me will not be tolerated. And fortunatly my new Dom agree's with drawing is NOT an apropriate method for us.
quote:

ORIGINAL: Aine

Ideas that I personally think would work well for anyone, not just masochists are things like lack of physical contact with their Dominant, silence from their Dominant,



The reason I was not the one punishing hims was for a couple reasons.  If I were to do it, he would have taken it to the extreme.  Having a mutual friends of our (my Domme buddy) do it, was actually  hard on both.  She didn't realize hew sad it made her feel until afterward.  I never anticipated the reaction (live and learn- do your own damn punishment )
 
The tone was "I was so pissed I didn't even want to touch him".  I wanted him to know what it would be like without me.  The punishment didn't even compare with the mental anguish.




(in reply to LotusSong)
Profile   Post #: 56
RE: Punishing Masochists - 12/13/2006 12:28:33 AM   
FelinePersuasion


Posts: 4792
Joined: 11/20/2004
Status: offline 		Yup devil, and when I am petulant and pouty, they are NOT going to get behavior they want from me easily. I have to be gotten over my rough spot before I can listen again.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Devilslilsister

quote:

ORIGINAL: FelinePersuasion

Actually not to get off topic here, but in my relation ships deciding not to contact me for punishment is not allowed, and is grounds to break my trust in my dom and make him a single dom. In my relationships it's a serious offense to withdraw any contact with them, And it makes a behavior worse not better. I had a dom who's method of dealing with things was simply not to deal, and left to brude I became pychically ill from the stress mentally and emotionally of being unable to stop crying for days and days, the fear of being released over a simple slip up yada yada. so I make it quite clear up front ignoreing me and withdrawing from me will not be tolerated. And fortunatly my new Dom agree's with drawing is NOT an apropriate method for us.
quote:

ORIGINAL: Aine

Ideas that I personally think would work well for anyone, not just masochists are things like lack of physical contact with their Dominant, silence from their Dominant,



Same here.  Things just get worse.  I take on the attitude of  "screw you if you want to be like that - do i look like i care?"  i throw up walls, insulate myself in them and i convince myself very well that i dont care.  To me that is "emotional hurt" and i deal very poorly with it.  Emotional hurt - is the quickest way (IMO) to get some one to say "go F yourself" be it in manner, voice, attitude or obedience. 


(in reply to Devilslilsister)
Profile   Post #: 57
RE: Punishing Masochists - 12/13/2006 12:38:28 AM   
slavejali


Posts: 2918
Status: offline 		You beat them really really badly....  

_____________________________

Freedom in Bondage

Different Strokes for Different Folks

"I'll always have a *soft spot* for Sadists"

(in reply to FelinePersuasion)
Profile   Post #: 58
RE: Punishing Masochists - 12/13/2006 7:01:39 PM   
TemptingNviceSub


Posts: 3054
Joined: 10/1/2005
Status: offline 		I can see where Creative Dominant and KOM have about the same viewpoint in regards to consequences of ones actions as an adult..so I too will have to concur with them on this ..Tempting

(in reply to slavejali)
Profile   Post #: 59
RE: Punishing Masochists - 12/14/2006 4:39:28 AM   
LotusSong


Posts: 6334
Joined: 7/2/2006
From: Domme Emeritus
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Mikal

Go vanilla on their butt. Not literaly (well, I guess you could, but vanilla is pricey and it seems a waste), but relationship wise. *grins* Tell them they've destroyed your love of kink, and you have returned to the light side. For good. Then act horrified when they try to woo you back or suggest anything not purely vanilla. 
 
Actually, I think this would work for just about any type of person here...


 I like the way you think!

_____________________________

Life Lesson #1

I'm not your type.
I'm not inflatable.


(in reply to Mikal)
Profile   Post #: 60
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