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Carter, his book, Palestine, the American problem - 12/12/2006 2:40:44 AM

meatcleaver

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I haven't read Carter's book yet but I will, though it doesn't appear to be aimed at people like me but more towards American's who refuse to accept what is going on in Palestine.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/story/0,,1970058,00.html

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RE: Carter, his book, Palestine, the American problem - 12/12/2006 7:06:03 AM

seeksfemslave

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There is no doubt whatsoever that the Israeli lobby in the US is very very influential, as was the Irish lobby prior to the 9/11, may well still be for all I know.
There is no doubt also that the Israelis are ruthless and brutal, if they so decide, when dealing with the Palestinians.
but
If the Palestinians keep resorting to violence and are not successful then they, the Palestinians, are playing into the hands of the Israeli propagandists and military machine.
I dont hold out much hope for negotiation unless the Palestinians concede the right of Israel to exist. I hold out no hope for military action as things stand,so, which is the better option for Palestinians ?

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RE: Carter, his book, Palestine, the American problem - 12/12/2006 8:46:11 AM

meatcleaver

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I guess treating people like animals turns people into animals, the Palestinians did try peaceful means and got nowhere or things got worse, Israel just apropriated more land. I guess at the moment its a case of better to die fighting than live on your knees for the Palestinians. Maybe things will change now that Hezbollah and Iran are strengthened by the foolish wars in Lebanon and Iraq. Olmert is beginning to make noises that way.

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RE: Carter, his book, Palestine, the American problem - 12/12/2006 9:59:04 AM

luckydog1

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When did the Palestinains try peacefull means? I must have missed that. Does anyone else remeber that the basis of Carters "Peace Deal" between Isreal and Egypt was a Treaty/Legal Commitment to fund Isreal's and Egypts Millitary....And Isreal was occupying the west bank at that time...Carter didn't seem to feel it was Apartied then.

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RE: Carter, his book, Palestine, the American problem - 12/12/2006 10:43:48 AM

Archer

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Well considering the various hijackings and such that killed Americans during the 70s through the 90's have not been perpetrated by Isrealis but rather by Arabs behind the Palistinian cause, it might get a little tough to sel the American public on the idea that they exhausted the peacefull means.

Considering that the current leadership for the Palistinian cause still holds that Isreal must be destroyed, if Isreal is being sneaky then they are doing a really good job making the other side look like the stubborn ones.

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RE: Carter, his book, Palestine, the American problem - 12/12/2006 10:45:40 AM

meatcleaver

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quote:

ORIGINAL: luckydog1

When did the Palestinains try peacefull means? I must have missed that. Does anyone else remeber that the basis of Carters "Peace Deal" between Isreal and Egypt was a Treaty/Legal Commitment to fund Isreal's and Egypts Millitary....And Isreal was occupying the west bank at that time...Carter didn't seem to feel it was Apartied then.

I guess he was optimistic he could get a deal between Jordan and Israel over the west bank after the Israeli-Egyptian deal but Israel has always had its eyes on the west bank to create a greater Israel or at least that is the way it seems.

If you are subject to American media I can imagine you not knowing about the Palestinians trying peaceful means, nothing positive is ever reportaed in the American media about the Palestinians, which brings us back to the subject of Carter's book.

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RE: Carter, his book, Palestine, the American problem - 12/12/2006 6:34:34 PM

luckydog1

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You could do an end run around the "American Media" and give me some examples. Then I could look them up. But there really aren't any are there?

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RE: Carter, his book, Palestine, the American problem - 12/12/2006 6:56:18 PM

pahunkboy

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I seen a news peice where jewish guards stand on residential roof tops. a jew has nice swimming poo- the neighbor a palezstinian get barely a trickle of the water.

IMO- both groups are radical. They need to get along better. I sold gas to both hardcore persons. They were so sure they were being screwed. Im like pay your tab and get out.

Jimmy Carter was horrible at many aspects as a US president. BUT he did arrange the camp david peace accords. Carter is very intelligent. Being that media has become a corporate mouthpiece- I find it refreshing that he cant be silenced.

His legacy post presdiency will go down in history as a big man.

I seen the protestors on the news. I did not know they even read books. Those fools.

Carter is a world class man.

If the truth is ugly- or his version of how he sees our world- so be it.

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RE: Carter, his book, Palestine, the American problem - 12/12/2006 10:05:35 PM

Archer

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And what of the plagerism that seems to be a well founded accusation? With at least a prima facia case.

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RE: Carter, his book, Palestine, the American problem - 12/12/2006 11:24:18 PM

meatcleaver

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Archer

Well considering the various hijackings and such that killed Americans during the 70s through the 90's have not been perpetrated by Isrealis but rather by Arabs behind the Palistinian cause, it might get a little tough to sel the American public on the idea that they exhausted the peacefull means.

Considering that the current leadership for the Palistinian cause still holds that Isreal must be destroyed, if Isreal is being sneaky then they are doing a really good job making the other side look like the stubborn ones.

Since America bank rolls and arms Israel it is hardly likely that Israelis will target Americans. However, since America bank rolls and arms the Israelis, it is highly likely Arabs will target Americans.

Israel points to the Balfour agreement as its legitimacy but the Balfour agreement was never implimented and Israel was set up through acts of terrorism. The US and the west condemns terrorism but apparently not in this case.

The Balfour agreement recommended a two state solution where all citizens in each state would be treated equal and without discrimination. Israel has always discriminated against its Arab minority. Probably one of the reasons why its Arab minority has never accepted Israel's legitimacy.

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RE: Carter, his book, Palestine, the American problem - 12/12/2006 11:59:01 PM

mgdartist

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If I owned a parcel of land which had been passed down in my family for 900 years, and suddenly had it taken away by the "previous owners" through military means, I'd be outraged, view it as theft, and seek reprisal against the usurpers and their supporters who'd enabled them to do so.
While I support Israels right to a soveirgn nation, to the point where I'd take up arms myself, the palestinian view isn't difficult to comprehend. No one is willing to put their money where their mouth is on the side of Israel and westward, and like myself, are at best ambivalent, which is a nice way of saying we speak through our mouth and arses simultaneously. The palestinians and their arab brothers will never accept what I've come to think of as "the bullshit". Israel's brutality, and overprotectiveness of their egis and statehood is simply excaserbating an already bad situation. Arabs fear them far more than they do the U.S.

There will never be peace in the region - until the bloodbath which has been outlined biblically. I find it odd that no one, even here, wants to allude to, nor accept the reality of that - which is armaggedon.

Although I'm no bible-thumper, and dislike the idea of it's rammifications during my own lifetime, it is so frickin obvious with each passing day.

"The writing is on the wall" as they say.

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RE: Carter, his book, Palestine, the American problem - 12/13/2006 2:21:14 AM

seeksfemslave

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I think a World Wide catastrophe ie Armegeddon, as a result of the Arab/Israeli conflict is not likely unless two powerful ideologically opposed nations take sides , as was the case US/USSR.

I DO think that, in the region, something distinctly worse than is happening now is almost certain. The only thing stopping it is the disunity of the Arabs. With committed terrorist/freedom fighter cells that problem may not be such a "stopper"

It sems to me it is in Israel's long term interests to make concessions and here US administrations could and in my opinion should show some real bipartisan statesmanship.

It would be odd if Bush believing that the Republicans had no chance in the next presidential election decided to intervene to the benefit of the Arabs. How likely is that? Not very, if only due to the fact that I think he has many Jewish advisors behind the scenes and he appears tobe only a puppet.

Dont ask me what concessions, the only thing I can think of is to promote to power moderate Arabs AND Israelis. If they exist.

< Message edited by seeksfemslave -- 12/13/2006 2:24:28 AM >

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RE: Carter, his book, Palestine, the American problem - 12/13/2006 2:52:36 AM

meatcleaver

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Armegeddon isn't a battle, it's a place. The final battle is east of Jerusalem and isn't between countries but between man and god.

http://www.realtruth.org/articles/217-wia.html

That's if you believe it.

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RE: Carter, his book, Palestine, the American problem - 12/13/2006 9:43:11 AM

mgdartist

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granted, and quite so. Thanks for the reminder. But the biblical inference is tha god will come to fight in the aid of his chosen - the Jews, nho?

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RE: Carter, his book, Palestine, the American problem - 12/13/2006 9:55:18 AM

meatcleaver

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quote:

ORIGINAL: luckydog1

You could do an end run around the "American Media" and give me some examples. Then I could look them up. But there really aren't any are there?

The internet is full of world media that reports this and you only have to compare what the media reports in other countries to what is reported in America. An ex-American president has written a book about it.

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RE: Carter, his book, Palestine, the American problem - 12/13/2006 9:57:26 AM

meatcleaver

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quote:

ORIGINAL: mgdartist

granted, and quite so. Thanks for the reminder. But the biblical inference is tha god will come to fight in the aid of his chosen - the Jews, nho?

Yes.

The interesting thing is that you could also infer that the US and China are the armies fighting god.

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RE: Carter, his book, Palestine, the American problem - 12/13/2006 10:01:38 AM

cloudboy

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quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

I haven't read Carter's book yet but I will, though it doesn't appear to be aimed at people like me but more towards American's who refuse to accept what is going on in Palestine.

Carter's book also got a write up in the New Yorker. A friend of mine from Egypt already got it delivered to his home. I thought this was particularly pertinent:

>It is his contention that the situation in the Occupied Territories “is not debated or acknowledged or even known in this country,” and that the “tremendous aversion” here to criticism of Israel’s policies has contributed to the disintegration of the peace process. “I can’t imagine a Presidential candidate saying, ‘I’m going to take a balanced position toward the Israelis and the Palestinians,’ and getting elected,” he said. “It’s inconceivable. AIPAC is smart enough to penetrate any sort of circumlocutions.”<

The New Yorker

< Message edited by cloudboy -- 12/13/2006 10:02:17 AM >

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RE: Carter, his book, Palestine, the American problem - 12/13/2006 10:05:02 AM

mgdartist

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quote:

meatcleaver

Yes.

The interesting thing is that you could also infer that the US and China are the armies fighting god.

Indeed. I'd always assumed that world events would have to come that point fo the prophecy to be fullfilled, still I'd like to hear how you arrived at that deduction?

< Message edited by mgdartist -- 12/13/2006 10:06:38 AM >

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RE: Carter, his book, Palestine, the American problem - 12/13/2006 10:18:17 AM

FirmhandKY

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quote:

ORIGINAL: pahunkboy

Jimmy Carter was horrible at many aspects as a US president.

Yes, he was. What leads you to this conclusion, however?

quote:

ORIGINAL: pahunkboy

BUT he did arrange the camp david peace accords. Carter is very intelligent. Being that media has become a corporate mouthpiece- I find it refreshing that he cant be silenced.

His legacy post presdiency will go down in history as a big man.

Carter is a world class man.

If the truth is ugly- or his version of how he sees our world- so be it.

If you are looking for "truth", then Carter's book certainly doesn't contain it. Unless you define "truth" as twisting the facts to fit your position and beliefs.

On a wider note, I see that Carter's failures as a President are the same failures (or faults) that will prevent him from becoming a "big man" or a "world class man" as you describe.

Which is why I asked you why you thought his Presidency was a failure - because I see the same things that prevented him from being a successful President are the same things that will prevent him from being a successful "non-President".

quote:

ORIGINAL: pahunkboy

I seen the protestors on the news. I did not know they even read books. Those fools.

What? Have I missed some earth-shattering, street mobs protesting Carter's book somewhere?

Or are you just talking generally about the communist-socialist-gaia-worshipping-trade bashing groups that fill the streets whenever there is a G8 meeting?

FirmKY

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RE: Carter, his book, Palestine, the American problem - 12/13/2006 10:41:23 AM

philosophy

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*fast reply*

....regardless of whether or not Carter was a good president, he is going to have an uphill battle trying to convince Americans that a balanced view of Israel is accurate. After so many years of only reporting PLO atrocities and blatantly ignoring Israeli ones the US media has a lot to answer for............

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