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RE: Carter, his book, Palestine, the American problem - 12/30/2006 6:19:21 PM   
luckydog1


Posts: 2736
Joined: 1/16/2006
Status: offline 		O yes I forgot that the US occupied, Sweeden, Switzerland, UK, Ireland, Spain, Portugal,...!!! Well, the UK, Ireland, Spain, and Portugal all have US bases troops and US Nuclear Weopons.  We are still in those places because the elected Governments want us to be.  You got me on Sweden, of course we did go toe to toe with the USSR to keep it in the neutral catagory, and we(with our junior partners in NATO) garunteed their independance.  Neither Nato nor the Soviets wanted an arms build up in Scandanavia.  Both sides agreed to stay out.   Switzerland, while technically nuetral has always helped the West and the Capitalists. 

"however thoughout history since the Middle Ages the western part of Europe has tended to develope Faster than the East, with new ideas then migrating eastward."    Marxism was invented by a central europeon(German) and adopted in first in Russia and spread later to the west.  Classical Music was really the child of Mozart, from Austria(center east) and spread to the west.  Seems like most of your scientists came from the Central/eastern part of the Continent also  Sounds like part of Typical West Europeon Mythology to me. 

Arhhhhh, now if the US policy toward native peoples had been the European way perhaps there should be a bit of a different racial demographic in places like ..........India, South Africa - no lets say the whole of Africa, Sri Lanka, Indochina, ........ !! Nope predominantly it is in the Americas, and Australia that genocide of the natives was susccessfull. 
 
 There is a large difference between a Settler Colony and an Exploitation Colony, so there really is no reason to compare the 2 like that.  England ran both types of Colonies, intentionally in a different way, for different goals.   Furthermore the Genocide was not sucessfull in the USA.  Natives are all around us in America, and as you pointed out were really beaten by disease.  The Europeon Genocides of the 20th Century were far more effective.  Edit in< as were the Arab Genocides of the Middle ages.>

< Message edited by luckydog1 -- 12/30/2006 6:23:41 PM >

(in reply to Dtesmoac)
Profile   Post #: 161
RE: Carter, his book, Palestine, the American problem - 12/30/2006 6:37:51 PM   
luckydog1


Posts: 2736
Joined: 1/16/2006
Status: offline 		I think you will find that many former East Germans are signally unimpressed with capitalism and much of East Europe is still not so hot on capitalism. Under the USSR it was a case of the grass being greener on the other side, now many people realise it isn't.

NO, I think you will find that the vast majority of former Communist states do not want to go back to the dictatorship of the USSR.  This is demonstrated in their actuall voting and behavior.  What we saw in Ukraine (did they call it the Oarnge Revolution?) is a perfect example.  They are not moving to N korea or any other Communist state in droves, though if I was a East Europeon Marxist, I would probably move to Vietnam or Cuba.  They are not putting together new constitutions to re-instate the "Dictatorship of the Proletariat".  Do they think everything is perfect?  Of course not---Who does?  What you see is a nostalgic "good old days" feeling.  Side note --can you imagine a worse society than a dictatorship  of un-educated urban factory workers?

(in reply to RobertCloud)
Profile   Post #: 162
RE: Carter, his book, Palestine, the American problem - 12/31/2006 5:24:55 AM   
meatcleaver


Posts: 9030
Joined: 3/13/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: luckydog1


"however thoughout history since the Middle Ages the western part of Europe has tended to develope Faster than the East, with new ideas then migrating eastward."    Marxism was invented by a central europeon(German) and adopted in first in Russia and spread later to the west.  Classical Music was really the child of Mozart, from Austria(center east) and spread to the west.  Seems like most of your scientists came from the Central/eastern part of the Continent also  Sounds like part of Typical West Europeon Mythology to me. 


Marx while German, wrote most of his works in London and was influenced by the industrial revolution and had a close friendship with Engels wrote a lot about the English working class.

As for European scientists I would check again. While in the times of Byzantium eastern Europe was in advance of western Europe, all changed in the middle ages. Western European countries weren't the imperial empires because they were trailing in the wake of eastern Europe but because they were so much in advance. Catherines the Great was at pains to import culture from the west because she was painfully aware that Russia was playing catch up. Austria being Germanic have always been seen as part of western Europe which is how they see themselves

quote:

ORIGINAL: luckydog1

Arhhhhh, now if the US policy toward native peoples had been the European way perhaps there should be a bit of a different racial demographic in places like ..........India, South Africa - no lets say the whole of Africa, Sri Lanka, Indochina, ........ !! Nope predominantly it is in the Americas, and Australia that genocide of the natives was susccessfull. 
 
 There is a large difference between a Settler Colony and an Exploitation Colony, so there really is no reason to compare the 2 like that.  England ran both types of Colonies, intentionally in a different way, for different goals.   Furthermore the Genocide was not sucessfull in the USA.  Natives are all around us in America, and as you pointed out were really beaten by disease.  The Europeon Genocides of the 20th Century were far more effective.  Edit in< as were the Arab Genocides of the Middle ages.>


Well this is taking a low iof we are arguing about whose genocide is worse.

I am only aware of one European genocide of the 20th century and that is the Jewish genocide.

There is a large difference between a Settler Colony and an Exploitation Colony, so there really is no reason to compare the 2 like that.  England ran both types of Colonies, intentionally in a different way, for different goals.  

Until the middle of the 19th century the British empire was a private enterprise, rather like the American empire is now. The British government mainly being concerned with keeping open the sea lanes for commerce. In that sense Britain didn't officially have settler colonies or exploitation colonies, though in reality the people in power had interests rather like President Bush has interests in oil and surrounds himself with oilmen, though officially America doesn't have an empire. Crimes commited in the name of Britain were commited by private citizens or merchant adventurers. It was to put a stop to this corruption that Britain effectively nationalised the empire in the mid 19th century and created a culture of duty to empire.

_____________________________

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RE: Carter, his book, Palestine, the American problem - 12/31/2006 5:44:57 AM   
Dtesmoac


Posts: 565
Joined: 6/22/2006
Status: offline 		luckdog

Well, the UK, Ireland, Spain, and Portugal all have US bases troops and US Nuclear Weopons.  We are still in those places because the elected Governments want us to be.  Your earlier post tated occupation not alliance....or in the US prespective is there no difference?

Neither Nato nor the Soviets wanted an arms build up in Scandanavia. And Nato forces in Norwaty were for what purpose - Sweeden has tried to be neutralist since over a third of its male population were killed or crippled in Wars duing the 17th Century and has consistently provided co-operation to any Big neighbour e.g. Steel for Germany etc. 

Marxism was invented by a central europeon(German) and adopted in first in Russia and spread later to the west.  Classical Music was really the child of Mozart, from Austria(center east) and spread to the west.  Seems like most of your scientists came from the Central/eastern part of the Continent also  Sounds like part of Typical West Europeon Mythology to me.  - see MCs post

 
 There is a large difference between a Settler Colony and an Exploitation Colony, so there really is no reason to compare the 2 like that.  England ran both types of Colonies, intentionally in a different way, for different goals.   Furthermore the Genocide was not sucessfull in the USA.  Natives are all around us in America, and as you pointed out were really beaten by disease.  The Europeon Genocides of the 20th Century were far more effective.  Edit in< as were the Arab Genocides of the Middle ages.> - the original point was to do with learning from the past, as with alcoholics the first step required honetsly admitting the issue.........of the US meuseums etc that I have visited in the Mid West, examples of US culture, development and the Pioneering spirit etc is always high up in the "good, high tech, entertaining & impressive" attractions list. The displays of the native Indians perspective of history are normally very limited or non existent. The Wounded Knee Museum at Wall is packed with information but is a tiny building run on a shoe string. At a couple of the "events" we have attended the token native presence is pushed away into a corner with some photos and a few artifacts and a couple of people, whilst the pioneering spirit displays of re-enacters is the centre piece. It is understandable on the basis of people being interesting in the history of their own culture rather than of others.......but is it another example of why people with a global view of the world find the view of the world of some Americans.......a little local.  

(in reply to luckydog1)
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RE: Carter, his book, Palestine, the American problem - 12/31/2006 6:01:09 AM   
Dtesmoac


Posts: 565
Joined: 6/22/2006
Status: offline 		Robert

Was it the Europeans that slaughtered the Plains Indians?
Stop! 
These are documented facts and not myths, some of the artifacts can be found in museums but the history behind them are kept from the young. Why would they tell you what they don't want you to know? - Robert, why is there so little readily available inforation on the Native American side of the history and mythology of the development of the US. Is it simply that the victor writes history?

every one of those warriors were of European bloodlines. They could trace their lineage and did so proudly to someplace in Europe.
It was still the European philosophy of Imminent Domain. That God had made them the stronger so by that right the land was theirs for the taking.
And this is something that it took Europeans oer 400 years, multiple attrocities i many parts of the world and two enormous total war conflicts to finally realise was wrong, and to question. Have the US and other nations looked at the mistakes of the European nations and learnt from them or as occured with many Europeans it is only when you make the mistake yourself and it is people from the same country / culture that clamour for change that change can occur?

It does not matter to me whether or not the ones were fully European or European descent... in fact... though I am of Native Descent, one of my own ancestors is responsible for ordering the massacre at Sand Creek, but we do not bear the shame of our ancestors. We only bear the shame of our own lives.


But as for me. Just let me be me, and let the truth of history be known. Stop hiding the facts, and tell the truth. - I can agree with this but also as with all history there are multiple layers of truth and often the whole picture is not as portayed by any of the "sides". Prior to comming out to the US for a short while I knew practically nothing of specific US history, other than from a global context  - having used my time here to try and understand the US I am in the process of reading about the 1812, before I return to the UK I hope to have learnt more about it. Interestingly my son is at a US school and the so called history and wonders of the US that he covers seems to very rarely include Native American aspects.

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RE: Carter, his book, Palestine, the American problem - 12/31/2006 11:48:58 AM   
seeksfemslave


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quote:
 Interestingly my son is at a US school and the so called history and wonders of the US that he covers seems to very rarely include Native American aspects. [endquote]
 
Just a when I was at school in the UK History lessons hardly ever mentioned the majority population, ie the working classes

< Message edited by seeksfemslave -- 12/31/2006 11:51:53 AM >

(in reply to Dtesmoac)
Profile   Post #: 166
RE: Carter, his book, Palestine, the American problem - 12/31/2006 12:21:46 PM   
Dtesmoac


Posts: 565
Joined: 6/22/2006
Status: offline 		good point seeks - If I may in delicately put it I suspect you are a tad older than me & by the time I covered history especially 1914 to 1960 the Pals Reguments etc and so working class aspects of history were included.......


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Profile   Post #: 167
RE: Carter, his book, Palestine, the American problem - 12/31/2006 2:08:12 PM   
luckydog1


Posts: 2736
Joined: 1/16/2006
Status: offline 		the original point was to do with learning from the past, as with alcoholics the first step required honetsly admitting the issue.... 
But Europeons are pretending that they have done this.  Spain was bombing Morrocoo in the past 5 years to keep its colonies in Africa.  When Rebels in Courte De Ivory killed some french troops, they bomed a town from the air killing thousands, again in the 21st century.  The Falklands war, The Balkans War.  France and Germany were taking Bribes From Saddam, I knwo the EU desperatly wants some puppet dictators of thier own.  the Eu seems very intent on keeping the borders they drew for the world intact, when they were set up to harm the areas involved.  That you have learned these great lessons is your myth, the reality is that you are occupyied by the USA.  That is what changed your society, not your self reflection.
And yes Americans have our own silly myths, every culture does.

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Profile   Post #: 168
RE: Carter, his book, Palestine, the American problem - 12/31/2006 10:59:17 PM   
Dtesmoac


Posts: 565
Joined: 6/22/2006
Status: offline 		the original point was to do with learning from the past, as with alcoholics the first step required honetsly admitting the issue.... 
But Europeons are pretending that they have done this - nope just moving further along it.
Spain was bombing Morrocoo in the past 5 years to keep its colonies in Africa - please provide News Story for this, or are you referring to the uninhabited rock off the North African coast? 
When Rebels in Courte De Ivory killed some french troops, they bomed a town from the air killing thousands, again in the 21st century.  - and the number of dead in Somalia during the Black HAwk down incident was? - we can start throwing stones back and forward if you like, I'm willing to concede the US inflicted body count  post WWII will be higher.
The Falklands war - I think Britain was attacked? Funiest thing was that most brits couldn't understand why Argentia wanted a set of islands off of Scotland until they had a look at the atlas. Outcome of the war...democracy in Argentina.......
The Balkans War - yep Middle Ages thinking is still around, got me there. .......but by Europe do we meen, continent of, or concepts, or European Union....does America meen, USA, or North America, or include US and Columbia......nope I'll claim the Bulkans is not part of the Europe I am referring to...i.e. democratic Europe, West of the old Soviet Pact. Afterall one of the EU tenents of civilisation is the abolition of the death penalty and the new Eastern EU members notably Poland want to change that one.
 France and Germany were taking Bribes From Saddam - wonder if they came from money orignally paid to him by another power to fight the Iranians............now getting Germany and France to launch a war without UN / international law supporting them that I woudl like to see (post WWII of course).........and of course with German laws being implied to allow prosecution of members of the Bush admnistration for crimes against humanity....that will be interesting.
 I know the EU desperatly wants some puppet dictators of thier own - nope we call then Buerocrats (how do you spell that word) and they work in Brussells already, but they do believe the pen or at least check book is mightier than the cruise missile....
  the Eu seems very intent on keeping the borders they drew for the world intact, when they were set up to harm the areas involved - are yes the imperialist argument, I seem to remember that Israel / Palasine / West Bank / Gazza, which could have something to do with excuses for Middle East strife, are post departure of European power..........on the wider front I think the EU tends to be more based on pragmatism e.g. recognition of Slovenia, Bosnia-Hertzgo, Eritria, and other "new nations" 
 That you have learned these great lessons is your myth, - perhaps learning and relearning that conflict is not the objective of politics, and actually rarely accomplishes the stated aims anymore, at least since the advent of industrialised total war anyway.
the reality is that you are occupyied by the USA - are the crux of your argument, by which you imply the iron baseball boot held firmly at the throat of those naughty ungrateful Europeans, and which as an occupier would enable them to ensure the Europeans vote for US policy in the UN, (NOPE),  provide finance and troops for foregin wars (generally NOPE - but Afghanistan yes....ish), and of course as an occupier it would not be possible for American Merger plans to be prevented by the Europeans - oops GE and Honewell merger stopped by Europe, launch of Euro causes slide in dollar and allows US companies to be bought at knockdown prices, those occupied EU countries can spend less on health care but get wider coverage, provide higher levels of aid to greater numbers of countries and therefore improve on their automatic 22 votes to 1 starting point for international agreements and trade negotiations with other countries..... bugger being occupied is such a drag....
And yes Americans have our own silly myths, every culture does. - yes every country does and many believe them, perhaps some more than others, what is interesting is the reverence with which some people hold on to them, whilst others realise they are just another form of belief without substance.  At which I come back to a lovely term I have been introduced to Jacksonian thinking.......so in your terms the US continues to occupy Europe which under the Jacksonian tennet will only be for selfish me, me, me, reasons, which I presume therefore is purely for the benefit of the US, and when Europeans object concerning the actions of the US, the US doesnt like the absence of support from Europe.............................
 
I think I must have missed something somewhere....................

(in reply to luckydog1)
Profile   Post #: 169
RE: Carter, his book, Palestine, the American problem - 1/1/2007 1:48:07 AM   
sleazy


Posts: 781
Joined: 11/23/2006
From: UK
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent

quote:

ORIGINAL: sleazy

(there are some places where whites are fast becoming the minority)

Apparently, Birmingham will become the first city in Europe with a non-white majority by 2020. I'm not aware of similar places. Where else are you thinking of?
 
I was under the impression Leicester reached this state about 5 years ago


As for deference to authority, that has nothing to do with previous wars (most euro states were dragged into these wars as a matter of self defence, some of the others were fought by americans too - take Vietnam as an example),

A grand statement but not true. There are threads examining this very statement and examples of self-defence are thin on the ground.

Belgium, France, Poland, Netherlands, Norway none of these were agressors, all were invaded.
 

The welfare state has resulted in a "screw you, something for nothing" mindset that leaves no respect for authourity, people or property, and I include self-respect in that too.

How have you arrived at this conclusion then?

I've been there, in the social security office, seen how much better off I could be financially without working.Then lets add on the tv adverts that practically say "Got no common sense? Let us get you some money for it!"

Here now in england there is being a bit of a pro-patriotism backlash, but to admit to being a patriot is a baaaad thing, being a patriot automatically makes you a thug, a racist, intolerant, soccer fan in many eyes.

I don't see this. I see a growth in the popularity of St George's Day. Only now are the English developing a sense of identity. If you want to wave a flag around then that's your call, your life. It's not for me but to each their own.

Yes the popularity of patriotism is increasing, but let me point this out. The only times I have noticed cars and flags in any quantity have been at times that coincide with football tournaments, on my many visits to the US, flags have always been visible on cars and on houses year round. Patriotism is still a dirty word in England, to all too many patriot and racist are the same word. I have seen officals demand an english flag taken down, whilst ignoring the scots one across the street. (the scots one still flies, the owner of the english one has been threatened with eviction should he put out again)

It is better socially and professionally to admit to being a homosexual than to admit to being a patriot with a respect for yourself, others and authourity.

Hmmmm, are you saying only patriots have respect for themselves and others? If so, this is a leap in faith if ever there was one.

Apologies, that was not written in the spirit it was intended. I should have said a patriot, or someone with respect et al
We may be integrated further up the social scale, but at the bottom it more a case of being forced together and having no choice but to interact.

Possibly, there a lot of pissed off people but they tend to be in areas of high unemployment, poverty, poor housing etc. People are lashing out, race/culture is not the issue - the issue is social deprivation. I live in Manchester and people get on fine - we have a large asian community and genuinely I haven't heard/read of problems in Manchester.
Oldham? Is that not a mere stones throw away? People may well get on fine, but are they actually integrated, can you pick a street at random and have it accurately reflect the breakdown of the city as a whole, or is a street more likely to be black, asian, polish, martian or whatever depending on where in the city it is? Pick one of those streets, and i bet in most instances if you offered the residents who make up a minorty within it a move to the same house in every way, but amongst their own ethnic group they wold jump at the chance. I do not want to come across as racist, but in many cases, either taken person by person or culture by culture there is a certain comparison with oil and water, they can co-exist, but never really mix. I would class a city as integrated when I can stand on any street at random and not be able to guess which district I may be in.



_____________________________

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(in reply to NorthernGent)
Profile   Post #: 170
RE: Carter, his book, Palestine, the American problem - 1/2/2007 9:23:53 AM   
luckydog1


Posts: 2736
Joined: 1/16/2006
Status: offline 		the original point was to do with learning from the past, as with alcoholics the first step required honetsly admitting the issue.... 
But Europeons are pretending that they have done this - nope just moving further along it.
Spain was bombing Morrocoo in the past 5 years to keep its colonies in Africa - please provide News Story for this, or are you referring to the uninhabited rock off the North African coast?  Actually Spain has 2 city states colonies on the Morrocan Mainland also.  But yes I am refering to the Island 500 Yrds off  of a major Morrocann city where Spain recently put in gun emplacements.
When Rebels in Courte De Ivory killed some french troops, they bomed a town from the air killing thousands, again in the 21st century.  - and the number of dead in Somalia during the Black HAwk down incident was? oh it was very high, but we were there as a UN force and other nations helped get that number up- we can start throwing stones back and forward if you like, I'm willing to concede the US inflicted body count  post WWII will be higher, I suppose if you pretend that Algeria didnt happen, and take no credit for the messes you left behind in africa asia and the mideast that might be true.
The Falklands war - I think Britain was attacked? Funiest thing was that most brits couldn't understand why Argentia wanted a set of islands off of Scotland until they had a look at the atlas. Outcome of the war...democracy in Argentina.......
The Balkans War - yep Middle Ages thinking is still around, got me there. .......but by Europe do we meen, continent of, or concepts, or European Union....does America meen, USA, or North America, or include US and Columbia. "America" means the USA, "North America" means Canada, Mexico, USA, and the Carribiean, and "The Americas" refers to all the lands of the Western Hemisphere, ......nope I'll claim the Bulkans is not part of the Europe I am referring to...i.e. democratic Europe, West of the old Soviet Pact. Right, the part with American armies in them ( or with security arangements with them), occupyied after ww2( that was my point before- the 'europeon enlightenment' you have now is not based on social events of the people of europe, but on who occupyied you after ww2, the east suffered more in the war than you did in the west). Afterall one of the EU tenents of civilisation is the abolition of the death penalty and the new Eastern EU members notably Poland want to change that one.
 France and Germany were taking Bribes From Saddam - wonder if they came from money orignally paid to him by another power to fight the Iranians( glad you admit to it)............now getting Germany and France to launch a war without UN / international law supporting them that I woudl like to see (post WWII of course)"Kosovo".........and of course with German laws being implied to allow prosecution of members of the Bush admnistration for crimes against humanity....that will be interesting.  No, I bet nothing of the sort will ever happen.
 I know the EU desperatly wants some puppet dictators of thier own( you already admitted to taking bribes and cutting deals with Saddam, also look at french dealings with Sudan) - nope we call then Buerocrats (how do you spell that word) and they work in Brussells already, but they do believe the pen or at least check book is mightier than the cruise missile....
  the Eu seems very intent on keeping the borders they drew for the world intact, when they were set up to harm the areas involved - are yes the imperialist argument, I seem to remember that Israel / Palasine / West Bank / Gazza, which could have something to do with excuses for Middle East strife, are post departure of European power..........on the wider front I think the EU tends to be more based on pragmatism e.g. recognition of Slovenia, Bosnia-Hertzgo, Eritria, and other "new nations" 
 That you have learned these great lessons is your myth, - perhaps learning and relearning that conflict is not the objective of politics, and actually rarely accomplishes the stated aims anymore, at least since the advent of industrialised total war anyway.
the reality is that you are occupyied by the USA - are the crux of your argument, by which you imply the iron baseball boot( nope just that we Have our armies there) held firmly at the throat of those naughty ungrateful Europeans, and which as an occupier would enable them to ensure the Europeans vote for US policy in the UN, (NOPE)( just 98% of the time),  provide finance and troops for foregin wars (generally NOPE ( actually generally Yes)- but Afghanistan yes....ish), and of course as an occupier it would not be possible for American Merger plans to be prevented by the Europeans - oops GE and Honewell merger stopped by Europe( no it doesn't), launch of Euro ( we set the conditions and encouraged the development of the EC, then The Eu and the Euro, we want that to happen) causes slide in dollar and allows US companies to be bought at knockdown prices, those occupied EU countries can spend less on health care but get wider coverage, provide higher levels of aid to greater numbers of countries( not true, thats a game that can be played though) and therefore improve on their automatic 22 votes to 1( that you have 2 votes in the Security council while Africa and South America get zero is more important than that, but we have a final veto over everytihng, so it doesn't really matter to us) starting point for international agreements and trade negotiations with other countries..... bugger being occupied is such a drag( its the best thing that ever happened to you, I agree, and you take full advantage of it, that is to be expected)....
And yes Americans have our own silly myths, every culture does. - yes every country does and many believe them, perhaps some more than others, what is interesting is the reverence with which some people hold on to them, whilst others realise they are just another form of belief without substance.  At which I come back to a lovely term I have been introduced to Jacksonian thinking.......so in your terms the US continues to occupy Europe which under the Jacksonian tennet will only be for selfish me, me, me, reasons, which I presume therefore is purely for the benefit of the US, and when Europeans object concerning the actions of the US, the US doesnt like the absence of support from Europe.................Jacksonian is not the only strain of thought in America, to pretend it is is just simplistic.  I under stand you spent time in the midwest, and didnt like it, but that would be like judging Europe from ones time spent in Albania)............
 
I think I must have missed something somewhere......Yes you certainly did.  Mostly you confirming that the warsaw pact/Nato lines are the crux of Post ww2 social, economic political development, not your myth of the "people had enough of War".  So if we eliminate all your argument based on "occupation must be bad and expoloitive", and sarcasm, you didnt really say much.
..............

< Message edited by luckydog1 -- 1/2/2007 9:31:41 AM >

(in reply to sleazy)
Profile   Post #: 171
RE: Carter, his book, Palestine, the American problem - 1/2/2007 10:32:08 AM   
Real0ne


Posts: 21189
Joined: 10/25/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: luckydog1

the original point was to do with learning from the past, as with alcoholics the first step required honetsly admitting the issue.... 
But Europeons are pretending that they have done this - nope just moving further along it.
Spain was bombing Morrocoo in the past 5 years to keep its colonies in Africa - please provide News Story for this, or are you referring to the uninhabited rock off the North African coast?  Actually Spain has 2 city states colonies on the Morrocan Mainland also.  But yes I am refering to the Island 500 Yrds off  of a major Morrocann city where Spain recently put in gun emplacements.
When Rebels in Courte De Ivory killed some french troops, they bomed a town from the air killing thousands, again in the 21st century.  - and the number of dead in Somalia during the Black HAwk down incident was? oh it was very high, but we were there as a UN force and other nations helped get that number up- we can start throwing stones back and forward if you like, I'm willing to concede the US inflicted body count  post WWII will be higher, I suppose if you pretend that Algeria didnt happen, and take no credit for the messes you left behind in africa asia and the mideast that might be true.
The Falklands war - I think Britain was attacked? Funiest thing was that most brits couldn't understand why Argentia wanted a set of islands off of Scotland until they had a look at the atlas. Outcome of the war...democracy in Argentina.......
The Balkans War - yep Middle Ages thinking is still around, got me there. .......but by Europe do we meen, continent of, or concepts, or European Union....does America meen, USA, or North America, or include US and Columbia. "America" means the USA, "North America" means Canada, Mexico, USA, and the Carribiean, and "The Americas" refers to all the lands of the Western Hemisphere, ......nope I'll claim the Bulkans is not part of the Europe I am referring to...i.e. democratic Europe, West of the old Soviet Pact. Right, the part with American armies in them ( or with security arangements with them), occupyied after ww2( that was my point before- the 'europeon enlightenment' you have now is not based on social events of the people of europe, but on who occupyied you after ww2, the east suffered more in the war than you did in the west). Afterall one of the EU tenents of civilisation is the abolition of the death penalty and the new East<snip>


Wow what a shit mess, someones idea of a new quoting system?


_____________________________

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(in reply to luckydog1)
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