RE: The Holocaust... did it, or didn't it?? (Full Version)

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Arpig -> RE: The Holocaust... did it, or didn't it?? (12/13/2006 12:51:42 AM)

It did, and the proof is in the detailed records the Nazis kept of their activities....kind of hard to construct a conspiracy when the perpetrators recorded everything they did...well at least one would think it would be hard, but apparently not.



UtopianRanger -> RE: The Holocaust... did it, or didn't it?? (12/13/2006 1:53:51 AM)


quote:

I believe that the Holocaust did, indeed occur. 


So do I. However, whether it is relevant or not, many have questioned the official death toll. The international Red Cross has stipulated that less than 300,000 people died in the camps.

quote:


However, there are other things I believe in that some people casually brush-off or even laugh-off as "conspiracy theories."

I often find when probing such people that they have done very little research and have only a rudimentary understanding of the topic at hand. It becomes evident that they are simply relying on basic and often whitewashed information, spoon fed to them by a controlled mainstream media, that they were willing to swallow without question. 

Your blanket statement that people with conspiracy theories are stupid, is uninformed at best. And I'm being very generous with my terminology here.

Most assuredly.

A few years ago, an overwhelming majority of the populace didn't believe in ''The North American union / Security & Prosperity Partnership agreement'' But it's here, alive and well.

Without FOIAR's, 99.9 percent of voting public would say ''Operation Northwoods'' is just another kooky pipedream drummed-up by conspiracy theorists - But it's true.

Yes... Blanket statements like that turn the ''kook caller'' into the kook.




- R








DOM68005 -> RE: The Holocaust... did it, or didn't it?? (12/13/2006 5:28:25 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL by Lordandmaster

How about an example?



All you have to do is see the reports by the mainstream media from the White House.  Where are the thinking journalists anymore?



DOM68005 -> RE: The Holocaust... did it, or didn't it?? (12/13/2006 5:33:20 AM)

Back to the original topic:

  When I lived in Europe, I saw some places that had mass graves (buildings) from that era and they weren't soldiers.  I also met some surviors with the tattoos to show for it.  Of course, Kennedy was alive and there were lots of survivors then.

I've got to stop telling my age like that.  (BG)



Petruchio -> RE: The Holocaust... did it, or didn't it?? (12/13/2006 8:00:31 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: UtopianRanger

The international Red Cross has stipulated that less than 300,000 people died in the camps.


WHAT?!!

Sorry I haven't finished reading this thread yet, but UR's post made my jaw drop.

Are you saying 'per slave camp'? Or within a particular time frame? Or a geographical region? Or are you referring to the insane or Jehovah's Witnesses? Can you cite any non-supremicist source for that figure?

Entire cities were 'cleansed' of Jews. Visit Austria, Poland, and Germany: Nazi detailed records show far, far more than 300,000.

And I'm sure you didn't mean it that way, but your words (if not your intent) virtually reek of 'only 300000 Jews died'.





sweetnurseBBW -> RE: The Holocaust... did it, or didn't it?? (12/13/2006 8:05:11 AM)

Having a grandmother that was a survivor and looking at her camp tattoo number on her everyday, yes I believed it happened.  She had PTSD until the day she died and struggled with it daily.  People like Mel Gibson that believe it never happened are ignorant and disillusioned in my opinion.



mnottertail -> RE: The Holocaust... did it, or didn't it?? (12/13/2006 8:07:50 AM)

Don't forget that in the scheme of things there is a Rot Kreuz (hilf uns hilfen), that could be part of the numbers cooking thing. I would think the German branch in those days would have tried to minimize the numbers some.

Ron



Lordandmaster -> RE: The Holocaust... did it, or didn't it?? (12/13/2006 11:02:14 AM)

I'm hardly denying that governments spread misinformation, but I was asking HIM for an example, because I have a suspicion that he wants to say something controversial, and is waiting for someone to give him the opportunity.  Well, subfever, the floor is yours.

quote:

ORIGINAL: DOM68005

quote:

ORIGINAL by Lordandmaster

How about an example?



All you have to do is see the reports by the mainstream media from the White House.  Where are the thinking journalists anymore?



drawntothedark -> RE: The Holocaust... did it, or didn't it?? (12/13/2006 11:20:28 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: subfever

quote:

ORIGINAL: drawntothedark

People and their conspiracy theories. You really just have to pat them on the head and know deep down in your heart that they are stupid.


I believe that the Holocaust did, indeed occur. 

However, there are other things I believe in that some people casually brush-off or even laugh-off as "conspiracy theories."

I often find when probing such people that they have done very little research and have only a rudimentary understanding of the topic at hand. It becomes evident that they are simply relying on basic and often whitewashed information, spoon fed to them by a controlled mainstream media, that they were willing to swallow without question. 

Your blanket statement that people with conspiracy theories are stupid, is uninformed at best. And I'm being very generous with my terminology here.

I personally know well, several people who believe in various so-called conspiracy theories. I can assure you that they are anything but stupid. As a group, they are quite intelligent, and far better informed than the typical John & Jane Q. Public.

Let me ask you: Do you believe everything your government tells you?


No I do not believe what ever my goverment tells me. Do you believe what ever Michael Moore tells you?




Petruchio -> RE: The Holocaust... did it, or didn't it?? (12/13/2006 11:35:38 AM)

quote:

No I do not believe what ever my goverment tells me. Do you believe what ever Michael Moore tells you?


Well, yeah, when he's factual. Comparing Moore to Sean Hannity, Moore's facts generally prove out and he bother's to cite references. When Hannity gets caught in lies, he shrugs it off by saying "It's only entertainment."

If I recall correctly, in Moore's film about gun violence, critics were able to point out 2 errors. That's 2 more than I'd like, but on balance, the film was overwehelmingly accurate, whether or not you agree with his conclusions.



Petruchio -> RE: The Holocaust... did it, or didn't it?? (12/13/2006 11:45:19 AM)

The terms believe and disbelieve disturb me.

It astonishes me that small clumps of small-brained skinheads proselytize to other small-brained people to ignore facts admitted to and recognized by the nations that were involved. Even during the public trials, Nazi officers often bragged about their 'accomplishments'.

Granted, the horror is mind-numbing, but what's to believe or disbellieve?

Without a scintilla of evidence, you might 'choose to believe' in psychic phenomena.

However, when faced with f-a-c-t-s, how could you choose to disbelieve?




UtopianRanger -> RE: The Holocaust... did it, or didn't it?? (12/13/2006 12:33:02 PM)

quote:


Are you saying 'per slave camp'? Or within a particular time frame? Or a geographical region? Or are you referring to the insane or Jehovah's Witnesses? Can you cite any non-supremicist source for that figure?



I'm saying that there dissenting opinions worldwide as it relates to much of the perceived history of the Holocaust. You can google IRC and the death toll at the camps and see for yourself.

Like I said.... I definitely believe in this horrendous tragedy, I'm just not sure if everything that is widely held by the mainstream as absolute fact is in all actuality true.

What I find equally disturbing, is that in some countries you can actually be imprisoned for having a dissenting opinion and being vocal about it as it relates to the Holocaust.

Now what do you think about that? It would seem that some would like squash freedom of thought


http://www.zundelsite.org/english/advanced_articles/incorrect.004.html



- R





mnottertail -> RE: The Holocaust... did it, or didn't it?? (12/13/2006 12:36:58 PM)

Simon Wiesenthal has pretty widely  been proved to be the Don King of Jews and not the Nazi Hunter that he has ruthlessly self-portrayed.  His discredits go to the very top of the organizations.

Ron  
http://www.reference.com/search?r=2&q=Zundel
for the skinny on any Zundelsite.   Draw your own conclusions.

If everything on the web was gospel, I would be garnering continuous blowjobs, a feat I would gladly go to the Ripley's Believe it or not committee for, to get in the books.



Petruchio -> RE: The Holocaust... did it, or didn't it?? (12/13/2006 1:40:02 PM)

Terrific, UR. You point us to a neo-Nazi web site riddled with errors and bad spelling to somehow 'prove' the holocaust is a big lie perpetuated by Germany, Austria, Britain, France, Danmark, Israel, Poland, Russia, and of course our own naîve or stupid nation.

Next, I suppose World War II was a minor mistaken police action against that great Teutonic liberator, Adolf Hitler, who accidently injured tens of people in a spanking scene.





Arpig -> RE: The Holocaust... did it, or didn't it?? (12/13/2006 2:38:52 PM)

quote:

You can google IRC and the death toll at the camps and see for yourself.

I did, and guess what? Turns out the Red Cross has never made an estimate of holocaust deaths or concentration camp deaths of any sort...ever. And further, the 300,000 number is from a 1955 article in the swiss paper Die Tat, and in that article there was no mention whatsoever of the Red Cross. So thank you for the Google suggestion, as it has shown me that the IRC estimate story is a complete lie....the estimate was never made by the IRC, the 300,000 number was an estimate made by the journalist, and it is his estimate of the number of Germans who died in concentration camps in Germany.

I point out to you that during the war, jews were not legally Germans, and the vast majority of the killing took place in SS-run extermination camps outside Germany, and not in the Gestapo-run concentration camps inside Germany, so even if the number 300000 is correct, it has nothing to do with the number of jews killed...it is by definition an estimate of the number of Germans killed in a specific geographical region.

The fact that you posted a link to a Zundel site to back up your arguement has lowered you in my estimation significantly, please tell me that you posted that link merely to show that there were those who had different ideas regarding the holocaust.




Petruchio -> RE: The Holocaust... did it, or didn't it?? (12/13/2006 3:09:42 PM)

Nicely and kindly put, Arpig. My own sarcasm aside, I hope UR was merely quoting other's lame views and not his own.



Petruchio -> Another Conspiracy (12/13/2006 3:11:26 PM)

Here's another conspiracy theory debunked!

Be warned, it is frightening.

http://www.collarchat.com/m_725439/mpage_1/key_/tm.htm



LadyEllen -> RE: The Holocaust... did it, or didn't it?? (12/13/2006 3:28:29 PM)

Of course it didnt happen!

The old Jewish people I met at a police diversity conference last year were making it up. The lengths they went to were amazing - had tattoos done, spoke with funny accents and even cried at times. One even claimed to have known Ann Frank when he was shipped with his family to the next street over in the ghetto in Holland - played with her apparently. I tell you, the research they must have done..... and the acting talent. Simply amazing.

Even more amazing is that they somehow had maintained this act from childhood through to old age. Outstanding commitment to a "lie", I'd say.

But lots of terrible things happened in that war - ask the 20 million dead Russians, ask the Poles about Katyn, ask the residents of the French village destroyed and massacred in reprisal for resistance, ask the gay men who were not released in 1945, but transferred to prisons, etc, etc, etc. Not to downplay what was done to the Jewish people, but to bear witness to the atrocities perpetrated by so many, against so many. Perpetrated by many? Yes. Ask the Lithuanians, Latvians, Estonians, Hungarians, Romanians, Slovenians and Croats who joined up to hunt down the enemies of the nazi state. Not all nazis were German, and certainly not all Germans were nazis either; the German resistance fighters - possibly the bravest of all those who sought the overthrow of that vile regime. 

And also ask why Jews fleeing nazi persecution were refused asylum in Britain and the US, amongst other places. The old man I met was taken as a boy by his family to neutral Holland, where they thought they'd be safe. The family only survived at all because they were "Tausch Juden" - Jews who had a connection to another country and whom the nazis preserved as hostages for bargaining purposes. Even so, they almost starved to death.

All made up. Of course.

E




MasterKalif -> RE: The Holocaust... did it, or didn't it?? (12/13/2006 3:42:11 PM)

this is a silly question and one that is an insult to those who survived the camps...however there are myths involved....one that there is unfortunately, much propaganda attached to the holocaust, and the state if Israel bases its existance and somewhat part of its legitimacy on that....and therefore stories are exagerated or made bigger than what happened I think. Also many people think that only Jews died at the concentration camps when in reality Catholics, Protestants, Jehova's Witnesses, communists, Germans and other Europeans opposed to Nazism, homosexuals and the mentally ill were killed or put in camps. One cannot deny that this tremendous deaths of millions ocurred, one only has to visit the horrible Auschwitz-Birkenau concentration camp (in what is today Poland), see how they lived, and died...very, very sad. Jews were almost exterminated in Poland to a few thousand down from more than 4 million before the war. Denying facts like those is ridiculous, yet I think European countries who make it against the law to state that the holocaust did not exist is also ridicolous, no need to protect the truth, it stands out for itself. Likewise, the Iranian "simposium" on this topic which finishes today I believe, has a right to rant about whatever they want, but do not need to be taken seriously.
I also think Israel should learn from its survivors (those who built the nation) and understand what they are doing to the Palestinian people while less horrible and technical is similar in many ways. [&:]

Oh yeah it called my attention that one of the Americans invited was a former US state senator or representative from Louissianna (I forget) by the name of David Duke, who teaches in a university in Ukraine....strange character.



Petruchio -> RE: The Holocaust... did it, or didn't it?? (12/13/2006 5:30:27 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: MasterKalif

Oh yeah it called my attention that one of the Americans invited was a former US state senator or representative from Louissianna (I forget) by the name of David Duke, who teaches in a university in Ukraine....strange character.


  • (confused) You mean invited to Iran?
  • If I got that right, did he go?
  • Are we letting him back in the country?








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