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Petruchio -> News Flash (12/13/2006 9:17:39 PM)

David Duke did indeed travel to Iran where he was a guest speaker.

Good, I'm pleased. Let's leave him there.



UtopianRanger -> RE: The Holocaust... did it, or didn't it?? (12/14/2006 2:18:30 AM)

quote:



I did, and guess what? Turns out the Red Cross has never made an estimate of holocaust deaths or concentration camp deaths of any sort...ever. And further, the 300,000 number is from a 1955 article in the swiss paper Die Tat, and in that article there was no mention whatsoever of the Red Cross. So thank you for the Google suggestion, as it has shown me that the IRC estimate story is a complete lie....the estimate was never made by the IRC, the 300,000 number was an estimate made by the journalist, and it is his estimate of the number of Germans who died in concentration camps in Germany.

I point out to you that during the war, jews were not legally Germans, and the vast majority of the killing took place in SS-run extermination camps outside Germany, and not in the Gestapo-run concentration camps inside Germany, so even if the number 300000 is correct, it has nothing to do with the number of jews killed...it is by definition an estimate of the number of Germans killed in a specific geographical region.

The fact that you posted a link to a Zundel site to back up your arguement has lowered you in my estimation significantly, please tell me that you posted that link merely to show that there were those who had different ideas regarding the holocaust


I think we understand each other better than that, Arpig. My post was clearly designed to both point out that there are differing opinions regarding the holocaust and deconstruct a myth with regard to conspiracy theories.  

I mentioned two separate times, in two separate posts that I absolutely believe in the horrible tragedy of the holocaust. However…. I am not sure most of the history as held by the mainstream is a hundred percent factual.  

The reference to the IRC is something that came off a radio program on NPR from a guest who was disputing some of the facts regarding the Holocaust a while back. And the Zundel fact page was the first thing that came up in a google query when I typed in ''IRC points out 300000  Jews died''  But ….if the IRC did not make those claims, please feel free to link me to some content that would show me otherwise    

As for sites like Wikipedia and snopes…..You will rarely if ever see me quote or reference them ; because the content is usually nothing more than a compellation of beliefs held by the status-quo. So when someone puts up a ''wiki'' type link for someone or something controversial, I usually sit here in this very confortable leather office chair and laugh.
 
Do a search on Henry Kissinger and Robert Gates {The new Defense Secretary} on wikipedia on you’ll come up with a compellation of mainstream beliefs that mostly paints them both as good patriots. I have a small collection of reputable books on the shelves in my office that would tell a whole different story. [;)]






- R



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Petruchio -> RE: The Holocaust... did it, or didn't it?? (12/14/2006 5:37:10 AM)

Thanks, UR.

What the Nazis did was almost incomprehensible. The sheer cruelty and mass numbers makes it difficult for the most reasonable of people to comprehend.

Almost universally, neo-nazi sites claim that it's all exaggerated, especially Hitler's reputation and that he was really just a jolly, misunderstood guy. Some claim that 2 to 6 million Jews died 'accidently' due to disease or even being strafed by Allied bombers, and that British and American governments colluded to cover up their own culpability. I even once heard a claim that the Jews weren't constitutionally strong enough to withstand the rigors of WW-II and that's why so many died. (Obviously they hadn't spent time in Israel.)

I agree about exercising caution with web sites, but despite what the neo-nazi apologist sites say, the Nazi's own records still exist. The photographs still exist, the German's as well as Russian and American. The depositions and testimony still exists. The buildings and the ovens still exist. You can visit them today if you have a strong stomach.

The crux of the problem is that some people choose not to believe facts. They choose to believe that major governments (excepting Iran) have engaged in a colossal conspiracy to delude the public for some unknown dubious reason.

Either we steel ourselves to believe best evidence or we claim fact is fiction. There's not much in between.



yourMissTress -> RE: The Holocaust... did it, or didn't it?? (12/14/2006 6:05:12 AM)

I'm always amazed when I hear someone say that the Holocaust never happened.  No, amazed doesn't quite do it, shocked is more like it.  "HOW can you say that???"  Is the only rational response that has come out of my mouth.    I wonder, where did you go to school?  Did you go to school?  Did you believe the teachers when they told you about George Washington, the Revolutionary War, or the earth being round?

I've never met anyone that survived the prison camps, but I also never met an astronaut, I still believe that man has been to the moon.  I didn't set foot in the ovens, but I've also never set foot on European soil, I still believe that Europe is there.  One does not have to personally experience something to know it does exist.



Petruchio -> RE: The Holocaust... did it, or didn't it?? (12/14/2006 6:20:26 AM)

Tress, that's well put.



Lordandmaster -> RE: The Holocaust... did it, or didn't it?? (12/14/2006 8:19:28 AM)

What part do you have doubts about?

quote:

ORIGINAL: UtopianRanger

I am not sure most of the history as held by the mainstream is a hundred percent factual.



beastie7 -> RE: The Holocaust... did it, or didn't it?? (12/14/2006 8:31:26 AM)

just to add ...The Holocaust'....General Patton, US Army, upon liberating a concentration 'camp'...had the troops under his command, to a man, tour the site. When asked by one of his officers, why are you ordering every one to see all this...Patton's reply was.....because in our lifetime there will be those who will deny any of this happened. I want them all to see and bare witness with their own eyes. Factual.

Consider Now....a nazi sits on the throne in Rome, as Vicar of Christ. We've come a long way baby. Oh yes, there are those who say....but he was just a kid then, he had no choice.  Well, he did....read about ...'The White Rose Society'.

Thank you for allowing my input to your forum.



Petruchio -> RE: The Holocaust... did it, or didn't it?? (12/14/2006 8:37:53 AM)

Thanks for the Patton input. That was valuable.



SlaveAkasha -> RE: The Holocaust... did it, or didn't it?? (12/14/2006 8:50:29 AM)

I admit I haven't been following this thread.  When it vanished out of the "off topics", I thought it had been pulled.  I didn't know it was down in "random stupidity" and am not sure how it fits..but, oh..well.
 
Though I question pretty much everything at some point, it has never come to mind to question whether this happened or not.  To read the history, to talk to those that were there, to see the tattoos.. I can't even comprehend how someone could deny it.
 
It's a fact that so many do though, not just those in other countries, but those here.  It amazes me that normally rational and intelligent people can be so totally off base in their thinking.  It's not as if there isn't proof, look at the pictures, see the graves, the camps can be seen and visited today. 
 
To deny this is to deny a part of who we are, and to an extent, what we allowed.  I think it's shameful that so many knew what was happening and didn't step in to stop it a lot quicker.  I wonder if that's why we jump in every single time something happens now, in the fear that we will make the same mistake.  I know there are worse things going on in the world though, than what was in Iraq..that makes me question that logic a lot, but I could be very wrong.
 
Until we recognize the horrors of our past, I believe we risk repeating them over and over. 
 
Kasha



subfever -> RE: The Holocaust... did it, or didn't it?? (12/14/2006 9:38:52 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lordandmaster

I'm hardly denying that governments spread misinformation, but I was asking HIM for an example, because I have a suspicion that he wants to say something controversial, and is waiting for someone to give him the opportunity.  Well, subfever, the floor is yours.


Me say something controversial? What would ever gave you that idea? ... [;)]

Seriously though, "conspiracy theory" debates rarely ever end with their participants reaching common conclusions.

Disbelievers want proof. Well, what constitutes "proof" other than actual verbal admission from conspirators themselves, or actual documents that prove a conspiracy?

In cases of real conspiracies, conspirators rarely ever go public with their knowledge while their co-conspirators are still in power. It's just not a healthy action for them to take! And classified documents are not released until the conspirators are long dead and/or out of power. By then, focus on the topic has been reduced to a tiny fraction.

Therefore, debating over current, forefront conspiracy theories is generally pointless, as it becomes nothing more than an exchange of opinions.

What about conspiracy theories of many years past that were eventually proven to be true? My experience has been that people who disbelieve in conspiracy theories across the board will often take the position that the topic at hand was never really a conspiracy theory to begin with.

It is of my opinion that people like this have a strong need to believe in structure and order, and that those who are in power are benevolent. In other words, conspiracy theories work against their core belief systems.



philosophy -> RE: The Holocaust... did it, or didn't it?? (12/14/2006 9:45:48 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: beastie7
Consider Now....a nazi sits on the throne in Rome, as Vicar of Christ.


....this would be the same throne of Rome that collaberated with the Nazis in WWII..........things don't change much.



philosophy -> RE: The Holocaust... did it, or didn't it?? (12/14/2006 9:47:59 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: SlaveAkasha
I admit I haven't been following this thread.  When it vanished out of the "off topics", I thought it had been pulled.  I didn't know it was down in "random stupidity" and am not sure how it fits..but, oh..well.


.........does anyone know why it was moved?



LadyEllen -> RE: The Holocaust... did it, or didn't it?? (12/14/2006 9:53:57 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: philosophy

quote:

ORIGINAL: beastie7
Consider Now....a nazi sits on the throne in Rome, as Vicar of Christ.


....this would be the same throne of Rome that collaberated with the Nazis in WWII..........things don't change much.


So glad someone pointed that one out!
E



subfever -> RE: The Holocaust... did it, or didn't it?? (12/14/2006 10:17:05 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: drawntothedark

No I do not believe what ever my goverment tells me.


Then you must believe that the government lies to the people.

If the government lies to the people, then it stands to reason that they are withholding the truth.

Is it likely that the motivation for withholding the truth from the people is in itself tied to conspiracies?

quote:

Do you believe what ever Michael Moore tells you?


No, although he does tend to be mostly accurate with his facts. However, I think he feeds the polarization of the masses, and doesn't offer any real solutions.  

But how is your question relevant here?




Petruchio -> RE: The Holocaust... did it, or didn't it?? (12/14/2006 12:32:06 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: subfever

But how is your question relevant here?


Arguably, this entire thread is irrelevant.



NorthernGent -> RE: The Holocaust... did it, or didn't it?? (12/14/2006 1:34:05 PM)

I don't recall anyone on this thread denying the holocaust happened. The Iranian government is attempting to deny the truth of the holocaust as a tool to undermine Israel and this is both immoral and dishonest. However, UR stated that the 6 million figure is disputed and it is disputed by serious historians (not just the right-wing lunatics), his statement is fact. You have to remember that the 6 million figure is one that was quickly assembled before the necessary research could be conducted. A few of the Eastern European countries actually had less Jews living there on the eve of WW2 than the figures murdered that are stated in the 6 million total. 

Ultimately however, quibbling over whether or not it was 2.7 million, 4 million or 6 million does not detract from the moral enormity of what happened. As Arpig stated, there is more than enough sound evidence to prove the holocaust did happen. The Iranians are merely playing at politics and dragging in a few half-wits for good measure.

In terms of the freedom of speech issue mentioned by UR, well, my understanding is that there is no jail term in Austria for disputing the numbers murdered but there is a jail term for calling the holocaust a fabrication. Should someone be jailed for this? Debatable, but if you look at this in the context of today's right-wing European Islamophobia then I can see why such laws are necessary. There is nothing to say that the Jews of the 1930s will not become the Muslims of today and we are already a few steps down this path with people excusing the bigotry directed at European Muslims. Some things are best nipped right in the bud before they escalate into a point of no return and if it means a suspension of freedom of speech for the likes of David Irving and this Duke bloke then is it really a cause for concern? If these idiots want the civil liberties afforded to the rest of society then they should act like responsible human beings.



Lordandmaster -> RE: The Holocaust... did it, or didn't it?? (12/14/2006 5:31:18 PM)

Ummm...not really.  Yes, six million was a quick estimate, but it's been confirmed time and time again.  Do you know of any credible historian whose estimate is significantly lower than six million?  The lowest serious number I know of is 5.1 million, which comes from Raul Hilberg's The Destruction of the European Jews.

So, yeah, the number of deaths can't ever be known precisely, but it's also very misleading to say that there is any serious dispute (among historians, at any rate) over the magnitude.

quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent

However, UR stated that the 6 million figure is disputed and it is disputed by serious historians (not just the right-wing lunatics), his statement is fact. You have to remember that the 6 million figure is one that was quickly assembled before the necessary research could be conducted. A few of the Eastern European countries actually had less Jews living there on the eve of WW2 than the figures murdered that are stated in the 6 million total.



theRose4U -> RE: The Holocaust... did it, or didn't it?? (12/14/2006 5:37:19 PM)

I've actually had the opportunity to meet more than a dozen holocaust survivors. I'm confident from the stories these people told that this was genuine. I'm also confident that these seniors didn't go to the tattoo parlor to get the numbers on their arm.



Petruchio -> RE: The Holocaust... did it, or didn't it?? (12/14/2006 6:18:29 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lordandmaster

... the number of deaths can't ever be known precisely, but it's also very misleading to say that there is any serious dispute (among historians, at any rate) over the magnitude.


True, but naturally the intent of disputing the holocaust is an antisemetic attempt at throwing up chaff to confuse the unwashed masses. It works, doesn't it? Questions raised by well-meaning people who seek answes here?



UtopianRanger -> RE: The Holocaust... did it, or didn't it?? (12/15/2006 12:23:55 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lordandmaster

What part do you have doubts about?

quote:

ORIGINAL: UtopianRanger

I am not sure most of the history as held by the mainstream is a hundred percent factual.



The death toll. The radio program that I listened to a few weeks back emphasized one thing over and over: That whether it was the IRC, various Soviet historians, or confessions from the likes of the ex commander of Auschwitz, the death toll varied accordingly.

Thirty years from now, might we come back on another discussion board and read that the day's popular opinion which says the only relevant , fact-based story about 9 -11, is the one published by the likes of Lee Hamiliton, Jamie Gorelick and Bob Kerrey?

quote:

Disbelievers want proof. Well, what constitutes "proof" other than actual verbal admission from conspirators themselves, or actual documents that prove a conspiracy?

In cases of real conspiracies, conspirators rarely ever go public with their knowledge while their co-conspirators are still in power. It's just not a healthy action for them to take! And classified documents are not released until the conspirators are long dead and/or out of power. By then, focus on the topic has been reduced to a tiny fraction.

Therefore, debating over current, forefront conspiracy theories is generally pointless, as it becomes nothing more than an exchange of opinions.

What about conspiracy theories of many years past that were eventually proven to be true? My experience has been that people who disbelieve in conspiracy theories across the board will often take the position that the topic at hand was never really a conspiracy theory to begin with.

It is of my opinion that people like this have a strong need to believe in structure and order, and that those who are in power are benevolent. In other words, conspiracy theories work against their core belief systems.


Brilliantly stated, Subfever ; especially the last paragraph. I've tried to get at this... in past 9/11 threads. What you speak of is part of an engrained, generational compoundedness that dates back to a time when the pheasant was treated rather harshly, only to kneel on the ground the next day and say ''thank you my lord'' and kiss the nobleman's feet [;)]




- R



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