RE: It Aint A Gift

RE: It Aint A Gift (Full Version)

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julietsierra -> RE: It Aint A Gift (12/16/2006 5:07:09 PM)
You all remind me of my children. "Don't wear your soccer shoes in the house" Kids trample through the house in football shoes "But mom! You didn't say I couldn't wear my football shoes!!" The inference of "no cleats on the carpet" was completely lost on them. Regardless of whether someone can give, take back, hold it as their own personality quirk or whatever, I think what's most important is that submissives realize that what they offer to someone (gift or not) has value and so they should be discriminating as to who they offer it to. Treating their personality quirk (need) as a gift implies that they too need to value who they are, what they are, and what they can offer a relationship. There are so many "dominants" out there who will do what they can to convince submissives that if they don't give it up to every Tom Dick and Harry that they aren't submissive. There are so many submissives out there who are in such a frenzy to try this, that the notion of gifting becomes a kind of internalized leash when in one of those frenzied times. Yes, the submissives should know better, but the idea of "gifting" through INFERENCE...reminds the submissive that it's not about who thinks what about your submission. It's about what WE, the submissives think about our submission, and up until we belong to someone, we seriously need to remember that submission is ours to give or not. Likening it to a "gift" assists in this process - that's all. It's an analogy, nothing more. When I was 16, my parents bought me a car. I had rules and curfews I had to follow. When I was late coming home once too often, they took my car away. They didn't care whose name was on the title. So, I for one, have had people gift things to me and had them taken away. Shit happens. juliet

NeedToUseYou -> RE: It Aint A Gift (12/16/2006 5:20:55 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: caitlyn Thank you for the response Mstr2you ... I agree with you on some level, but do feel you are selling the "gift" group short a bit. Now in fairness, you did indicate several times that people are difficult to categorize ... shades of grey, etc ... Obviously, you are entirely correct. In my view, those that feel their submission is a gift can actually fall into several groups ("perhaps", caviat). Some might use this as an almost guard ... I'm not giving this to just anyone, but only those worthy of such a gift. That might fit in with your romantic notion. Still others might genuinely feel that they want to give something special ... something they see of epic value. You can buy someone a car, and that's a wonderful gift. You can buy someone a pair of designer jeans, and that's a wonderful gift ... but what is the ultimate gift? Some might feel the gift of self fits the bill. The idea that the gift can be taken back, to me is not on point for this type of person. It can be spun to make it on point, but in my view, we are just making words fit a situation. Give me enough time, and I can make submission a tuna salad sandwich, with the choice spin of words. Some might look at the gift, and something completely internal ... not an external gift at all. Like an artist or musician with a gift, or who is gifted ... a person may feel that the ability to share on that level with another person, is a gift of it's own accord. Lets face facts ... all facets of this, from complete slavery, to casual play partner ... are just not for everyone. Not everyone could do it. Those that can, might be said to have a gift, or be gifted. When I look at the rebuttal opinions from several people, I notice one thing right away ... they all focus on the transfer of something from one person to another ... and point out that something that can be taken back, is not a gift. It has to be forever, to be a gift, is the point of view. I don't share that view. If "Master A", is given the gift of submission by "Submissive B", the gift is intact from the moment it is given. If the relationship ends a year later, that year was still given. You can say the gift is open-ended, because it can end, but whatever ends up being given, is in fact given forever. The best thought expressed on this thread, in my view, come from Miss Tress, when she said (paraphrased) that submission is whatever the people involved agree it is. We probably could have ended there. Thank you for the thread. You certainly caused a stir, which is not always a bad thing. So, you're saying they're Indian givers. LOL. Good enough.

Mstr2you -> RE: It Aint A Gift (12/16/2006 5:33:42 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: caitlyn When I look at the rebuttal opinions from several people, I notice one thing right away ... they all focus on the transfer of something from one person to another ... and point out that something that can be taken back, is not a gift. It has to be forever, to be a gift, is the point of view. I don't share that view. If "Master A", is given the gift of submission by "Submissive B", the gift is intact from the moment it is given. If the relationship ends a year later, that year was still given. You can say the gift is open-ended, because it can end, but whatever ends up being given, is in fact given forever. This really is the crux of the matter I think. First of all I have to admit the whole idea of offering a part of onself as a gift just seems so precious and romantic that it is hard to fit into MY idea of what bdsm is. I also fear that this "concept" is in fact a dangerous one for newcomers to the bdsm world as it embraces what I consider a false fairy tale like ideal that in fact can never be acheived and the quest for it will only result in pain and loss. Let me ask you even if such a thing was possible, and I am far from convinced that it is, that one could offer onself as an unconditional gift to do as the opposing force should chose, how many dominants do you think would be deserving of such an offering even if such a thing was a reailty? How many human beings with all their failings deserve such an offering? And if you say that that is what the master slave relationship is than I would disagree unless you want to remove the concept of consent which I doubt. In my view of the master slave dynamic there is no need for the slave to become less than she is and no need for her to give up a part of herself. I want my submissive to remain exactly who she is and than become MORE because than I become more. I don't grow by receiving gifts, I grow by expanding my world and what is give is less than what we acheive. It seems to me this "idea" that the submissive lays the gift of submission at ones feet is nothing more than an excercise in ego on both parts with the result being less than before. I am of the belief that when you give something that is yours you lose something that was yours. I am not talking about a TV set here I am talking about an emotional sense of who you are, give it away and you are changed. Sure you could go on to the next and the next and do the same thing but each time you lose something and eventually you will be empty with nothing left to give. There will always be those ready to take what is offered, the question is how much of yourself are you willing to lose.

julietsierra -> RE: It Aint A Gift (12/17/2006 12:18:50 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Mstr2you Let me ask you even if such a thing was possible, and I am far from convinced that it is, that one could offer onself as an unconditional gift to do as the opposing force should chose, how many dominants do you think would be deserving of such an offering even if such a thing was a reailty? How many human beings with all their failings deserve such an offering? And if you say that that is what the master slave relationship is than I would disagree unless you want to remove the concept of consent which I doubt. In my view of the master slave dynamic there is no need for the slave to become less than she is and no need for her to give up a part of herself. I want my submissive to remain exactly who she is and than become MORE because than I become more. I don't grow by receiving gifts, I grow by expanding my world and what is give is less than what we acheive. It seems to me this "idea" that the submissive lays the gift of submission at ones feet is nothing more than an excercise in ego on both parts with the result being less than before. I am of the belief that when you give something that is yours you lose something that was yours. I am not talking about a TV set here I am talking about an emotional sense of who you are, give it away and you are changed. Sure you could go on to the next and the next and do the same thing but each time you lose something and eventually you will be empty with nothing left to give. There will always be those ready to take what is offered, the question is how much of yourself are you willing to lose. I don't see giving as becoming or getting less of anything. By far, in giving, whether it's a television set or my emotional self, I receive a hundred fold in return - even when it's given without expectation beyond "I hope this makes him happy" And whether it's a television set or my emotional self, I am thoroughly convinced that when you give of yourself, you receive more than you ever thought possible - IF your intention was not in what you could receive. I am who I am. I am submissive, and yes, I belong to someone whose dominance fits who I am as a submissive. And in this way, it is not a gift but really more of a natural fit. I have to say though, that this natural fit, to me, is a gift beyond compare. Is he worth it? I'd say so. Absolutely. Does he miss the mark sometimes? Absolutely to that as well. The question though is not whether he is perfect or not, but rather, is he perfect for me or not. I believe his foibles are part of what makes him who he is. I LIKE who he is. I even LOVE who he is. So, I'll take him right along with all his foibles and give him all I can of myself. Doing so doesn't make me less, it makes me more, because giving less would make me less of who I am. I've never been one who withholds who I am. And I'll be the first to admit that in past relationships, including my marriage, being that way has taken its toll. However, part of what thrills me about this life I lead is precisely that with him, I get to be exactly who I am with no holds barred, nothing withheld simply to "protect" myself. Daily he expands my world, shares his with me, and gives me the courage and foundation to keep on growing. For the first time in my life, being "me" isn't being used against me, but rather I am valued for being me. In the three plus years I've been a part of his life and he of mine, I've become so much more of who I am and who I've always hoped I could be, that when I look back (and I actually do this every December), I can scarcely believe how far I've come. And while I do think that submissive is what I am verses some gift I give, I have to say that what I receive - even though he too gives no gifts - is still a gift beyond compare. And I am thankful each and every single day - even those days when I am not so happy And that is the gift. juliet

Mstr2you -> RE: It Aint A Gift (12/17/2006 4:26:15 AM)
quote: I don't see giving as becoming or getting less of anything. When you give of yourself unconditionaly with no expectation of return than you risk losing something of yourself. Ask someone who is in a lovesless relationship where what they offer is never returned. Do they not lose something every day? Why do they stay in that relationship? I do not know and I do not judge but there they remain. The gift of submission if such a thing exists would be different because ones submission brings with it the giving of power and control to another. I think we can all agree on that. It is not neccessary that there is any love at all between the dominant and the submissive. So I will repeat .... in a relationship based on power and control there is no need for one partner to give more of his or her self than another. We ARE speaking here of giving unconnditionally without expectation of getting anything back out of it. : "Here is my gift take it and do as you like" PERIOD. That being the case I would repeat that when you give something you lose something. Either the above is true and this is real or the offering of the gift of submission is nothing more than a precious romantic symbolic expression of what we do. If the latter is true than I would ask again,,, why all the anger and frustration at my belittling it?

LaTigresse -> RE: It Aint A Gift (12/17/2006 4:35:29 AM)
Now, with the holidays and all those great pressies like ties, books we already have, and other stupid shit we don't want.......let us discuss.....RE-gifting! edited to add just cuz.......I was going to go all non PC and bring up indian giving what with all the online crap and velcro collars but Need beat me to it and I didn't want to be redundant.[:D]

Mstr2you -> RE: It Aint A Gift (12/17/2006 5:05:35 AM)
quote: Now, with the holidays and all those great pressies like ties, books we already have, and other stupid shit we don't want.......let us discuss.....RE-gifting! quote: ORIGINAL: LaTigresse Now, with the holidays and all those great pressies like ties, books we already have, and other stupid shit we don't want.......let us discuss.....RE-gifting! edited to add just cuz.......I was going to go all non PC and bring up indian giving what with all the online crap and velcro collars but Need beat me to it and I didn't want to be redundant.[:D] This is a message board and all topics are discussed ad nauseum and in time they die and than are reborn and we do it again, thats the rule and that is the nature of a message board. Being deranged you should know that. It is to funny that this topic " the gift" is viewed by some as such a terrible space wasting redundent topic and yet someone has started another thread based on and about this thread discussing why we should not be talking about the topic in the first place which of course will start another long discussion about the topic at hand. I love that! Because it means that some people ARE interested and those who are not should just click on by and read the next topic about the difference between a slave and a submissive or what is a true master or who killed peter rabbit, it's all good and it will all be over before you know it.

SaphireLynn -> RE: It Aint A Gift (12/17/2006 5:21:03 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: NeedToUseYou quote: ORIGINAL: caitlyn Thank you for the response Mstr2you ... I agree with you on some level, but do feel you are selling the "gift" group short a bit. Now in fairness, you did indicate several times that people are difficult to categorize ... shades of grey, etc ... Obviously, you are entirely correct. In my view, those that feel their submission is a gift can actually fall into several groups ("perhaps", caviat). Some might use this as an almost guard ... I'm not giving this to just anyone, but only those worthy of such a gift. That might fit in with your romantic notion. Still others might genuinely feel that they want to give something special ... something they see of epic value. You can buy someone a car, and that's a wonderful gift. You can buy someone a pair of designer jeans, and that's a wonderful gift ... but what is the ultimate gift? Some might feel the gift of self fits the bill. The idea that the gift can be taken back, to me is not on point for this type of person. It can be spun to make it on point, but in my view, we are just making words fit a situation. Give me enough time, and I can make submission a tuna salad sandwich, with the choice spin of words. Some might look at the gift, and something completely internal ... not an external gift at all. Like an artist or musician with a gift, or who is gifted ... a person may feel that the ability to share on that level with another person, is a gift of it's own accord. Lets face facts ... all facets of this, from complete slavery, to casual play partner ... are just not for everyone. Not everyone could do it. Those that can, might be said to have a gift, or be gifted. When I look at the rebuttal opinions from several people, I notice one thing right away ... they all focus on the transfer of something from one person to another ... and point out that something that can be taken back, is not a gift. It has to be forever, to be a gift, is the point of view. I don't share that view. If "Master A", is given the gift of submission by "Submissive B", the gift is intact from the moment it is given. If the relationship ends a year later, that year was still given. You can say the gift is open-ended, because it can end, but whatever ends up being given, is in fact given forever. The best thought expressed on this thread, in my view, come from Miss Tress, when she said (paraphrased) that submission is whatever the people involved agree it is. We probably could have ended there. Thank you for the thread. You certainly caused a stir, which is not always a bad thing. So, you're saying they're Indian givers. LOL. Good enough. Actually the way I look at it is that they are giving that gift to you each and every time they submit to you. sure they get something out of it, but then whenever we give gifts to others even here at the Christmas season we get something if nothing more the joy of seeing a smile on thier faces. Ms. Lynn

julietsierra -> RE: It Aint A Gift (12/17/2006 6:22:22 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Mstr2you quote: I don't see giving as becoming or getting less of anything. When you give of yourself unconditionaly with no expectation of return than you risk losing something of yourself. The gift of submission if such a thing exists would be different because ones submission brings with it the giving of power and control to another. I think we can all agree on that. It is not neccessary that there is any love at all between the dominant and the submissive. So I will repeat .... in a relationship based on power and control there is no need for one partner to give more of his or her self than another. We ARE speaking here of giving unconnditionally without expectation of getting anything back out of it. : "Here is my gift take it and do as you like" PERIOD. That being the case I would repeat that when you give something you lose something. Either the above is true and this is real or the offering of the gift of submission is nothing more than a precious romantic symbolic expression of what we do. If the latter is true than I would ask again,,, why all the anger and frustration at my belittling it? Actually, I'm not at all angry with your view of things. If belittling someone else's views is important to you, then of course, you're going to do it. That being said I'd like to point out that from my point of view - and mine only - I don't presume to speak for others, life itself is a risk. I'd rather risk it all than to wonder what more could have been. So, when you say I risk losing something of myself, my only answer to you has to be that you're absolutely right, but if I don't take that risk, then I risk much more - and that's living life to its fullest. Can I get hurt? yup...and I know it. But what if...just what if...instead of being hurt, I find joy beyond anything that I've ever experienced before. If I can imagine it to be true, then it is true, because no matter what, the mind can't imagine the impossible. For my money, I'll take that risk. You say that love does not have to exist between a dominant and submissive. I say that initially that's true, but we are social creatures and over time, those feelings grow and I would hold suspect someone for whom that didn't happen. I know they exist out there, but I made a conscious decision not to be involved with any of them. I certainly know that I had absolutely no intentions of falling in love. I fought it for a while, and then I realized it's just one more journey, one more risk, and because I'm a social creature, love comes. So, I let go, took that step off the high board and realized I'd already done it long before then. I'd just not acknowledged it. As to your assertion that one shouldn't give any more than the other, well, I don't operate on the basis of a balance sheet. There is no "if-then" clause to my submission. I am solidly here until he tells me to go away. I give as I can. I accept what he can give. If it is not in the same measure as what I can - for better or for worse - then my question is not can he give more, but is he giving what he can under whatever circumstances he has happening in his life at this time? My question is never does he love me as much as I love him? My question is does he love me in the way that's comfortable for him? You see, demanding he love me as much or give as much or any of those other things, places me in control of the relationship. He is in control of himself. He doesn't need someone else's yardstick to measure himself by. He has his own yardstick. He accepts from me what I give. He doesn't abuse it. He doesn't diminish it or tell me I can't feel what I feel, and I don't tell him the way he feels is wrong. And yes, three and a half years ago, I said "I'll be here until you tell me to go." My submission was well and truly freely given (call it chosen if it's easier). I freely gave myself to him. There were no conditions. Over the years, we've worked out what works for us and what doesn't, but those are ultimately the products of his decisions. He does what he wants and sees how it affects me. Based on that and his choices for himself, he makes the decision to do it again. I am not a silent partner, but I am someone whose reactions and concerns he does consider. What he does with that consideration is his own. During the passing of time since then, I've had moments where I wondered about what was happening and even, what the hell was I doing. And then, I realize that just because I don't know what he's doing, doesn't mean he's operating to my detriment and what I was doing was submitting. My decision has been - and continues to be - I'll be here until he tells me to go. What I GAIN from this is exponential. I value each time I wonder - even when it hurts, because that means I get the opportunity to search myself, learn more about myself and just what this whole concept of giving to another means to me. And to me, that IS giving freely - whether it's in my nature to do so or a conscious decision I'm making. Either way, it's right for me. Please understand, I'm not arguing the whole gift issue here since we're now 10 pages into this. I'm discussing the whole notion of reciprocity and whether the risk is worth it. I don't want to be in charge. He gets that honor and responsibility and I don't split hairs over what "in charge" means. To me, it means exactly that. He makes decisions for himself and for me, and that's perfect. And in my world - it's all worth it - and so much more. juliet

Mstr2you -> RE: It Aint A Gift (12/17/2006 6:43:22 AM)
quote: Actually, I'm not at all angry with your view of things. If belittling someone else's views is important to you, then of course, you're going to do it. You are right, I should have said peoples perception of my belitttling the viewpoint. Although I would admit that whether or not that was my intent it is a fair perception that one could make. I enjoyed your post

caitlyn -> RE: It Aint A Gift (12/17/2006 9:41:36 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: NeedToUseYou So, you're saying they're Indian givers. LOL. Good enough. No, an Indian giver takes something back. In this scenario, whatever time is given cannot be taken back. A future might be denied, but what was given, was given.

julietsierra -> RE: It Aint A Gift (12/17/2006 10:01:06 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: caitlyn No, an Indian giver takes something back. In this scenario, whatever time is given cannot be taken back. A future might be denied, but what was given, was given. A future is never denied. For time put in there is always learning if someone wishes to take the time to discover the lesson. And ultimately, a different future presents itself - kind of like Robert Frost's poem "The Road Not Taken"..it can make all the difference. juliet

NeedToUseYou -> RE: It Aint A Gift (12/17/2006 3:59:40 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: caitlyn quote: ORIGINAL: NeedToUseYou So, you're saying they're Indian givers. LOL. Good enough. No, an Indian giver takes something back. In this scenario, whatever time is given cannot be taken back. A future might be denied, but what was given, was given. LOL, I wasn't being serious.

imtempting -> RE: It Aint A Gift (12/18/2006 3:31:05 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Mstr2you There is always a core group of regular posters on a given message board who feel that it is their board and anyone with ideas that differ from their cores ideals are seen as a threat and are to be attacked and eliminated as if one could eliminate thoughts and ideas. It is an illusion of power but neverless they cling to that illusion and pat themselves on the back with each self serving snotty post that they make in response to anyone different from them sure in the conviction that they are on the side of God and only the devil could disagree with their point of view so the devil it must be. They always get personal in their attacks and feel justified because in their minds it is they that have been attacked and they who must take a stand and defend. If personal attacks don't work or if the "evil one" dosn't run home crying than they go running to the moderator complaining that the poster is has violated board policy. ( I want to take this opportunity to thank those of you who have been reporting my every word to the moderators, I enjoy getting their emails in the morning really its been fun no I mean it .) It is too funny that core posters here are rewarded with paddles and lauded as being corrupted and twisted all the way up to deranged as if posting ones life away on a kink fetish board is not reward enough for anyone. ( I have got to exclude the lucky water bird cause I think shes hot and I can't figure out how she does the links thing) They post when they sneeze and they post when the giggle and they post when their dog farts and they post to each other and they post to themselves and they post and they post and they post. I agree with you there. On the topic. I tend to agree it is not a gift. I view the whole submitting and collaring thing differently though. I see a collar as like a wedding ring, only to be put on if it is the one to spend the rest of your life with...

SusanofO -> RE: It Aint A Gift (12/18/2006 4:08:34 AM)
Mstr2U: Have you read Noah's thread "What I take away from the "Gift" dispute"? It makes a lot of sense... - Susan

Mstr2you -> RE: It Aint A Gift (12/18/2006 5:34:36 AM)
I did glance at it Susan and found it to be the musing of someone trying to sort it all out in their head rather than a concise arguement for or against, so it is hard to respond. That is not to, God forbid, criticise musing here, I am all for musing and have in fact been a muser myself on occasion although I prefer to do it in the privacy of my own home. I did enjoy the intellectual arguement put forth by the one poster, firstly because it supported my view but even more importantly I am turned on by intelligence especially from an attractive woman and even if I didn't understand half of what she was saying it made me tingle none the less.

SusanofO -> RE: It Aint A Gift (12/18/2006 6:20:12 AM)
Just checking...with all due respect, I thought he made a rather excellent case for saying either one is okay and it's all relative to how one defines the term "gift", as there are many more definitions that the one used in this thread. That, actually, was his point. So, however you want to definte it is fine. But - so is anyone else's definition, too. - Susan

SirButchTX -> RE: It Aint A Gift (12/18/2006 6:40:05 AM)
You know, I did not read every response to this thread since there are so many, but Mstr2you had some valid points in his initial post. One thing I did seem to miss is the Top/Dominant's role in this gift of submission if indeed it is a gift. Let's look at a few points here. Let's say I accept this "gift" of submission. Well, now I've got not only a responsibility for my own well being, but that of another human being as well. I now have to divide my time and energies and perhaps my financial resources yet again one more way. I must find ways to keep the dynamic of the relationship alive and growing which entails a great deal of thought, planning, and imagination. Now these are just a few of the many things that the Dominant in a BDSM relationship has to deal with. So, with all that said....perhaps a submissive must be selective of whom she "gifts" her submission to, but on my end, I must be even more selective of whom I receive this "gift" from. I have turned down more than a few submissives who wanted to saddle me with their gift....LOL. Oh, I forgot, Dominants MUST have a sense of humor and apply it regularly when dealing with this "gift". SirButchTX

agirl -> RE: It Aint A Gift (12/18/2006 10:12:49 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: SirButchTX You know, I did not read every response to this thread since there are so many, but Mstr2you had some valid points in his initial post. One thing I did seem to miss is the Top/Dominant's role in this gift of submission if indeed it is a gift. Let's look at a few points here. Let's say I accept this "gift" of submission. Well, now I've got not only a responsibility for my own well being, but that of another human being as well. I now have to divide my time and energies and perhaps my financial resources yet again one more way. I must find ways to keep the dynamic of the relationship alive and growing which entails a great deal of thought, planning, and imagination. Now these are just a few of the many things that the Dominant in a BDSM relationship has to deal with. So, with all that said....perhaps a submissive must be selective of whom she "gifts" her submission to, but on my end, I must be even more selective of whom I receive this "gift" from. I have turned down more than a few submissives who wanted to saddle me with their gift....LOL. Oh, I forgot, Dominants MUST have a sense of humor and apply it regularly when dealing with this "gift" SirButchTX I have to say, this made me smile widely. If I dared call it a gift, I think my Master would point to his grey hair and the bags under his eyes and he MIGHT just let me know how much of a curse my gift has been.......LOL agirl

onestandingstill -> RE: It Aint A Gift (12/18/2006 10:35:35 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: jimbo747 quote: ORIGINAL: onestandingstill I'd say he's definately rude, crude and lacking general social skills. I'd guess it's a case of birds of a feather flock together. . suzanne you dont know me well enough to call me rude crude and lack social skills. do you always judge and size someone up so quickly. how does it feel to know everything? his post was sarcastic and its unfortuanate you took it so personal. lighten up. irregardless HIS MADE A VALID POINT. ligten up Hi Jimbo Where in the caputred sentance did I say you were rude or anything resembeling that?????? quote: I'd say he's definately rude, crude and lacking general social skills. Maybe being we all are different to some who are more aligned with his way of thinking it may not seem rude or insulting, but to a lot of the posters in this thread it is. I said maybe to people aligned with his way of thinking what HE said may not seem rude. A little defensive there jimbo.

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