RE: Kind of makes you think?

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Rumtiger -> RE: Kind of makes you think? (12/14/2006 12:40:54 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: philosophy quote: ORIGINAL: Rumtiger And since when has any civilization in history been truley civilized? ...i'd argue that to be civilised is the aim that culture should aspire to...... Except that such an aim is in the eye of the beholder, surely in ancient times the idea of what was civilized was realized by Egyptians, Greeks and Romans respectivly, looking back we can easily say how very uncivilized culture was back then, just as we can a few eras later in times of the imperial age, still to people of those times and certian nations they where the hieght of what was thought of as civilized society, once again, looking back we can make lists upon lists of what we would consider atrocities and barbaric actions taken. The same will be said of our modern times, it is against human nature to really become otherwise, there is no such thing as an idealist utopia, hell, look at what it is that we who come to these boards share in common, when looked at it from a basic standpoint, isent it just each of us embracing primal, savage urges inside of us? Me?..I like being a savage, makes things much less complicated.

meatcleaver -> RE: Kind of makes you think? (12/14/2006 12:54:05 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: MrrPete That is so ludicris it's not worth replying The state is not doing murder as an execution is NOT premeditated. State execution is the result of soemone elses action of murder. State execution is 6,000,000 Jews along with 6,000,000 other assorted peoples. You don't think that started off with a big plan do you. The odd one here and there to get rid of a little problem and ... you get the idea. If the state has the right to kill, it might well come for you next.

missturbation -> RE: Kind of makes you think? (12/14/2006 1:35:14 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Rumtiger quote: ORIGINAL: philosophy quote: ORIGINAL: Rumtiger And since when has any civilization in history been truley civilized? ...i'd argue that to be civilised is the aim that culture should aspire to...... Except that such an aim is in the eye of the beholder, surely in ancient times the idea of what was civilized was realized by Egyptians, Greeks and Romans respectivly, looking back we can easily say how very uncivilized culture was back then, just as we can a few eras later in times of the imperial age, still to people of those times and certian nations they where the hieght of what was thought of as civilized society, once again, looking back we can make lists upon lists of what we would consider atrocities and barbaric actions taken. The same will be said of our modern times, it is against human nature to really become otherwise, there is no such thing as an idealist utopia, hell, look at what it is that we who come to these boards share in common, when looked at it from a basic standpoint, isent it just each of us embracing primal, savage urges inside of us? Me?..I like being a savage, makes things much less complicated. But we dont live in ancient times - we have evolved. Well most of us have !!

philosophy -> RE: Kind of makes you think? (12/14/2006 1:38:33 PM)
...actually, my understanding of 5th century Athens leads me to believe that their thinkers saw civilisation as a work in progress. Perhaps the greatest error is in believing that being civilised is something attained. Doesn't mean we ought not aspire to it.

Rumtiger -> RE: Kind of makes you think? (12/14/2006 1:45:18 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: missturbation But we dont live in ancient times - we have evolved. Well most of us have !! My point wasent that we live in ancient times, I think I listed more recent times as well. My point was that no matter what time we live in the ideal of being civilized is just that, an ideal, not reality.

Rumtiger -> RE: Kind of makes you think? (12/14/2006 1:49:57 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: philosophy ...actually, my understanding of 5th century Athens leads me to believe that their thinkers saw civilisation as a work in progress. Perhaps the greatest error is in believing that being civilised is something attained. Doesn't mean we ought not aspire to it. I find that aspiration goes along rather well in some of my studies with Buddhism and Taoism, but maybe i'm weak, maybe I see that the culture as it is cant even begin to aspire to such civilized behavior unless every single individual tries to follow some sort of path that dosent have them make such transgressions against anyone else. And we all know that wont happen...its a nice fiction though isent it?

missturbation -> RE: Kind of makes you think? (12/14/2006 1:52:10 PM)
My apologies if i misread you. You claim to like being a savage though - surely that refers to a barbaric age long gone? Being civilised may be an ideal and not a reality but only because of opinions that barbaric acts such as the death penalty are seen as fit punishment rather than being hailed for what they are. In my opinion (and this whole post is just an opinion) the death penalty in itself is murder.

gooddogbenji -> RE: Kind of makes you think? (12/14/2006 1:56:33 PM)
Civilisation is the opposite of traffic deaths - you try to eliminate as many as possible, knowing you will never get rid of them all. Each step forward is a good thing, even though you can't win completely. Yours, benji

yourMissTress -> RE: Kind of makes you think? (12/14/2006 1:57:50 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: MrrPete I have done the research myself. Most Christians are sheeple and can only follow others blindly. I personally don't know any christians that don't agree with death penalty. You don't know any Christians that don't agree with the death penalty? I realize that you said that you personally don't know any, but that's a pretty leading statement coming from someone who has "done the research". When you were polling Christians about the death penalty, did you ask any Catholics? How about Baptists? What about Mormons? The reason I ask, is that Christianity is well known for having as a basic belief, forgiveness, as well as doing unto others as you would have done unto you. While there are some denominations that are more modern and maybe more lax in their ideology, I have yet to hear of a Christian denomination that supports the death penalty. Now, granted, you weren't asking the churches themselves, but I find it hard to believe in all your research that you didn't find a single Christian that was against the death penalty. So, just in case you want to include my answers in your research, I am a Christian and I do not believe in the death penalty as a viable form of punishment or deterrent of crime.

Rumtiger -> RE: Kind of makes you think? (12/14/2006 2:14:26 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: missturbation My apologies if i misread you. You claim to like being a savage though - surely that refers to a barbaric age long gone? Being civilised may be an ideal and not a reality but only because of opinions that barbaric acts such as the death penalty are seen as fit punishment rather than being hailed for what they are. In my opinion (and this whole post is just an opinion) the death penalty in itself is murder. The demand for satisfaction. Maybe the victim's family's satisfaction, the state's for killing who they consider a murderer, maybe even the public's for getting whoever off thier streets and out of thier minds permenently. The eye for an eye mentality is and has been forged into our minds for quite some time now, some can deny ouselves of it, some embrace it, and some have it opened up to them in certian situations. As for me being a savage, i'm of the mind that if you hurt me, i'll hurt you, and that rule will follow itself in each of the different levels that it can go, higher or lower. It isent exactly civilized mentality.

missturbation -> RE: Kind of makes you think? (12/14/2006 2:18:52 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Rumtiger quote: ORIGINAL: missturbation My apologies if i misread you. You claim to like being a savage though - surely that refers to a barbaric age long gone? Being civilised may be an ideal and not a reality but only because of opinions that barbaric acts such as the death penalty are seen as fit punishment rather than being hailed for what they are. In my opinion (and this whole post is just an opinion) the death penalty in itself is murder. The demand for satisfaction. Maybe the victim's family's satisfaction, the state's for killing who they consider a murderer, maybe even the public's for getting whoever off thier streets and out of thier minds permenently. What if the supposed criminal is innocent? Even through the death of a criminal it can not be removed from the victim / victims families mind. It is not that simple. The eye for an eye mentality is and has been forged into our minds for quite some time now, some can deny ouselves of it, some embrace it, and some have it opened up to them in certian situations. I dont deny myself of it i i disagree with it - there is a difference. As for me being a savage, i'm of the mind that if you hurt me, i'll hurt you, and that rule will follow itself in each of the different levels that it can go, higher or lower. It isent exactly civilized mentality. Now for me turn the other cheek is usually the better option - but thats just me. Not giving the person who hurt me the satisfaction of knowing they did.

Rumtiger -> RE: Kind of makes you think? (12/14/2006 2:38:15 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: missturbation The demand for satisfaction. Maybe the victim's family's satisfaction, the state's for killing who they consider a murderer, maybe even the public's for getting whoever off thier streets and out of thier minds permenently. What if the supposed criminal is innocent? Even through the death of a criminal it can not be removed from the victim / victims families mind. It is not that simple. The eye for an eye mentality is and has been forged into our minds for quite some time now, some can deny ouselves of it, some embrace it, and some have it opened up to them in certian situations. I dont deny myself of it i i disagree with it - there is a difference. As for me being a savage, i'm of the mind that if you hurt me, i'll hurt you, and that rule will follow itself in each of the different levels that it can go, higher or lower. It isent exactly civilized mentality. Now for me turn the other cheek is usually the better option - but thats just me. Not giving the person who hurt me the satisfaction of knowing they did. You make it hard to quote you. 1. Thats the downside to the death penalty, if theres a doubt and hes innocent and hes killed then thats pretty damn bad, but if he isent? its that war of questions that we can go back and forth with, what if hes innocent what if hes guilty and so on and so on and so on. And I never said removal from the mind fro the vic's family I said removal from the mind of the public, I personally dont remember the last person executed, do you? 2...umm...no, there isent, by dissagreeing with it you are denying that you have the mentality within yourself. 3. Exactly, thats just you. If i'm slapped across the face I wont be turning the other cheek, i'll be sending a knee into someone's gut.We each have our own responses to a given situation, but in this case, though my reaction might be more violent, and yours more passive, I dont think i'm a better person than you because of it, or vice versa. And as for them feeling the satisfaction of knowing they hurt me...well, let them have it, I know I feel the satisfaction of hurting them, as well, perhaps even worse then they did to me. To you perhaps you think this is wrong to feel, to me, its natural and justified.

missturbation -> RE: Kind of makes you think? (12/14/2006 2:48:18 PM)
And I never said removal from the mind fro the vic's family I said removal from the mind of the public, I personally dont remember the last person executed, do you? No you didnt but lets face it by the time someone had spent god knows how long on death row the public will more than likely have forgotten who they are anyway. Harsh but fair to say i think. umm...no, there isent, by dissagreeing with it you are denying that you have the mentality within yourself. Im not in denial i disagree - to me there is a difference. dont think i'm a better person than you because of it, or vice versa. And as for them feeling the satisfaction of knowing they hurt me...well, let them have it, I know I feel the satisfaction of hurting them, as well, perhaps even worse then they did to me. To you perhaps you think this is wrong to feel, to me, its natural and justified. I agree totally - everyone has their own way of dealing with things.

jdtallfem -> RE: Kind of makes you think? (12/14/2006 2:56:16 PM)
Having been a rehab therapist in institutions, I think it's a waste of humanity to have people sitting around in state hospitals and jail cells waiting around for heaven knows what, whether it's release, life imprisonment, or the death penalty. Let's let them work, in their community behind bars, pay them for it, and have them pay for their treatment. It used to be done historically in the state hospital systems and then the unions did away with it. Let's bring back vocational and other rehabilitation, rather then have these people sit around on death row for 20 years while we all pay for their lawyers. Seems like such a waste of human potential. Murder is often a one time violent, passionate act of insanity. Want to leave them behind bars? Fine. But make them pay for their food and lodging and this will save the taxpayers money and grief and give the incarcerated pride and accountablity.

Emperor1956 -> RE: Kind of makes you think? (12/14/2006 3:19:37 PM)
I have two objections to state. My (first, and serious) objection to the death penalty is a practical one. We do a rotten job of convicting the right people for a given crime. The criminal justice system is flawed, and we know that we at times convict the wrong person of a given crime. When that wrongful conviction leads to years of wrongful incarceration, it is bad enough; when it leads to state-sanctioned murder, its morally abhorrent. The reversal rate of death-sentenced convicts by reason of DNA analysis should terrify anyone with a brain. That alone is reason to object to the death penalty. My second (and admittedly peevish) objection is to the style of some people in posting on political/social threads. It is why I rarely read them. Some on this type of thread make grandiose and totally ridiculous statements, and then run away instead of having the intellectual strength to either back up their statements or admit they were wrong (like intimating that all Christians support the death penalty - the leading American objectors are nuns, for God's sake!). But morons, like savages and such, have always been with us, and its reassuring to see them here, too. E.

Rumtiger -> RE: Kind of makes you think? (12/14/2006 3:56:40 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Emperor1956 But morons, like savages and such, have always been with us, and its reassuring to see them here, too. E. Maybe i'm just too moronic to understand, but could you expand on the first part of this statement?

NeedToUseYou -> RE: Kind of makes you think? (12/14/2006 4:36:31 PM)
Personally I'd rather die than be in prison the rest of my life. It's barbaric in my opinion to let someone live out a shadow of an existance in prison, that's not living that's nothing. What kind of life would it be were you can achieve nothing, can't have a family, can't do anything productive. I'd rather be dead, than kept alive until I die of natural causes. And for what? So, people don't feel bad that they let someone get killed. LOL. Though torturing for 40 years is so civilized. Bah, that's as much bullshit as I've heard in ages. I'd say a fair option would be to let the prisoners decide their fate. Marginally subsized work, or death. If I knew I'd be in jail for the rest of my life. I have no doubt I'd kill myself, if the state wouldn't do it. IMHO.

missturbation -> RE: Kind of makes you think? (12/14/2006 4:40:16 PM)
oops lol

dcnovice -> RE: Kind of makes you think? (12/14/2006 9:18:26 PM)
quote: I personally don't know any christians that don't agree with death penalty. I know many Christians who oppose the death penalty.

dcnovice -> RE: Kind of makes you think? (12/14/2006 9:21:20 PM)
quote: The eye for an eye mentality is and has been forged into our minds for quite some time now, some can deny ouselves of it, some embrace it, and some have it opened up to them in certian situations. It was either MLK or Gandhi who pointed out that an eye for an eye makes the whole world blind.

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